Sciencemadness Discussion Board

[Question]nitroglycol

ecos - 8-3-2014 at 05:10

Hi All,

I am thinking to prepare nitroglycol , do any body here have an experience about it and would like to share?

Ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol_dinitrate

Metacelsus - 8-3-2014 at 05:24

I suggest you read:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=27853

Ral123 - 8-3-2014 at 05:40

One of the easiest materials to cause a runaway. Constant stirring is essential. Good purification involves organic solvents and distilled water.
Initiation: Modern cap No8 or equivalent. Anything less and you might get brisance like smokeless powder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFyWvvXosOk

ecos - 8-3-2014 at 05:52

Thanks all for the info, I really appreciate it.

I have just few questions :

distilled water means i need purify water myself or water bottles are fine?

what is No8 modern cap ?

sorry if my questions are so newbie but i still learn :)

Ral123 - 8-3-2014 at 06:35

Deionized or tapwater can also work, but not optimal.
IMO you should start the hobby with black powder. Apparently you didn't even bother to google cap No8. I've had many accidents, witch are probably waiting for you too. If you have accident with 30ml EGDN because of peroxide detonator, it can be life changing.

ecos - 8-3-2014 at 07:40

I tried to google cap No8 but the results seems to be dependent on my country.

do you mean that AP is sensitive to EGDN?

Zyklon-A - 8-3-2014 at 09:24

Usually, bottled water is purified first with distillation, then with reverse osmosis. So it is quite pure, minerals are added however, but only small amounts.

The best thing to do is read as much as possible on the subject.
Blasting cap.

macckone - 8-3-2014 at 10:03

Quote: Originally posted by Zyklonb  
Usually, bottled water is purified first with distillation, then with reverse osmosis. So it is quite pure, minerals are added however, but only small amounts.

In the US that is far from true, if it say distilled then it is distilled.
If it isn't distilled it is probably tap water boiled to kill bacteria.
Sometime it is carbon filtered or some other process but it is
rare.

Your mileage will vary in other countries which have standards.

underground - 8-3-2014 at 11:31

Quote: Originally posted by ecos  
I tried to google cap No8 but the results seems to be dependent on my country.

do you mean that AP is sensitive to EGDN?


Why you want to try EGDN ? It will give to you lots of headaches as long as it has the tedency to evaporate. I personally prefer NG for that reason.

[Edited on 8-3-2014 by underground]

Zyklon-A - 8-3-2014 at 11:42

Quote:

In the US that is far from true, if it say distilled then it is distilled.

I don't know where you live in the US, but I've never seen a bottle of water that was purified only with distillation in more than five years. How can they charge $2.50 for a bottle of water if it's purified only with distillation.

Ral123 - 8-3-2014 at 11:54

Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Quote: Originally posted by ecos  
I tried to google cap No8 but the results seems to be dependent on my country.

do you mean that AP is sensitive to EGDN?


Why you want to try EGDN ? It will give to you lots of headaches as long as it has the tedency to evaporate. I personally prefer NG for that reason.

[Edited on 8-3-2014 by underground]

Do you realize you recommend to a complete novice one of the most volatile and dangerous synthesis that can be done? At least I've had many EGDN runaways and I can confirm non of them has even shown a flame or anything. All the plyol group nitroesters along with MN have quite dangerous synthesis. NC, EGDN, PETN, DEGDN, PGDN are at least somewhat more stable. Also EGDN gives almost twice the NG yield with 60% nitric.

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 8-3-2014 at 12:07

EGDN has a Impact of 20cm, for 2kg, just a bit better than nitroglycerin! Someone please explain what the OP is trying to do...

Ral123, headache is only for some people, also you can get adapted to EGDN if you've synthesized a few times.

Ral123 - 8-3-2014 at 12:41

The headache is uncomfortable, so you suggest that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SvW_P0safI
I've washed a NG sample multiple times with NaHCO3 and distilled water. It was crystal clear and still developed a brown-green layer within less then a month. EGDN has never done that and has never been easy to detonate with any kind of hitting.

roXefeller - 8-3-2014 at 12:43

It's obvious that the OP is looking for the next step from AP with a simple monomolecular. We should remind him about safety requirements during nitroester production and EM in general. Start small and keep water at hand for drowning. Cool with ice/salt water bath. Add EG gradually. It's similar to nitroglycerin so read all about that but also read about its deadly history of accidents and risks. Sobrero was plagued with headaches because of it. Wash it till you're bored and then doubly before neutralizing. Use air bubbler or propeller to stir, no sticks thermometers or magnets. Bubbler needs glass because of corrosive acid. And finally stop looking for spoonfeeding and start reading more. Then learn stoich and beginner chem so you know the acid amounts. And for heavens sake don't leave it in a jar to vaporize and land in the threads, phlegmatize immediately ( yeah look it up). Although this thread really needs closed are their any EGDN specifics that need mentioned?

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 8-3-2014 at 13:07

yes, I suggest the OP post on short question thread, most of OP's question's answers could be found here. This forum has covered countless variety of explosives and you can just search the forum. and http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=27853

Ral123 - 8-3-2014 at 13:12

IMO this is quite a risk but here are some options for novices:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHT-mq16Y30
Secondaries for novices-AN/Al, UN, ANNMAl and some other less complicated and sensitive. The basecharges/boosters can be a problem.

ecos - 9-3-2014 at 01:29


I have knowledge about energetic materials but i lag practical experience, i prepared before AP ,AN/Al ,ANFO ,..

but I never tried something with more power.

I would avoid NG because of its sensitivity and stability , Thats why I was thinking about EGDN

for EDNA : Ethylenedinitramine (EDNA) is a practical and powerful military explosive. Problem is, the routes to EDNA, as published always use either exotic chems or very high or very low pressures to form the precursor - ethyleneurea.

thanks all for the advices and the info shared above

ecos - 9-3-2014 at 06:04

today , i will prepare my first sample of EGDN but I am worried a little bit about its storage.

what is the best methods for EGDN storage ?

Ral123 - 9-3-2014 at 06:44

Purification with NaHCO3, water and acetone. Store in cold, dark under water layer.

Zyklon-A - 9-3-2014 at 06:47

I would say, "don't", you could store it, sure, but it's dangerous.
Good luck.

ecos - 9-3-2014 at 08:00

I always do purification with NaHCO3, water and measure the PH !
is it a must to use acetone for purification ?

what if i have excess amount that is not needed anymore... how can I get rid of it?

[Edited on 9-3-2014 by ecos]

Ral123 - 9-3-2014 at 08:04

Quote: Originally posted by Zyklonb  
I would say, "don't", you could store it, sure, but it's dangerous.
Good luck.

What's dangerous?
@ ecos, I doubt you can achieve perfect neutral Ph without acetone.

hissingnoise - 9-3-2014 at 08:08

Its stability is appreciably better than that of nitro but its higher solubility makes washing difficult . . .

ecos - 9-3-2014 at 08:30

I can reach around PH=7 with water and NaHCO3

I have a problem to understand how can I handle it or even transport it !

[Edited on 9-3-2014 by ecos]

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 9-3-2014 at 10:33

You can transport in a glass bottle, and use a dropper to take them out, I think you can also pour it but slowly.

I really wont store something almost as sensitive as nitroglycerin in my home, if your parents clean or your sister run into your your room and accidentally drop the bottle, there would be tragedy.

Just burn it, it deflagrates beautifully with blue flame.

roXefeller - 9-3-2014 at 11:33

Quote: Originally posted by ecos  
I can reach around PH=7 with water and NaHCO3

I have a problem to understand how can I handle it or even transport it !

[Edited on 9-3-2014 by ecos]


That's when many historical accidents with nitroglycerin happened, on transport. Have you thought any about sawdust, diatomiceous earth, or other absorbent things and filling pill bottles. That is what set NG apart from dynamite in history, one being hated and banned, the later being praised. The assets of the Nobel prize came afterall from the sale of dynamite not NG.

Ral123 - 9-3-2014 at 12:10

Dubai, roXefeller, you have absolutely no experience with these materials do you? You have no idea where the real pitfalls are and what makes the two compounds interesting for a hobby use.

ecos - 9-3-2014 at 13:31

Thanks all for the great support , I really learn here a lot.

I know the steps to convert NG to gelatine dynamite, I would follow the same steps with nitroglycol.

I have the steps but I want to make sure about the percentage :nitroglycol 90% , nitrocellulose 10%

would that be a better form ?







[Edited on 9-3-2014 by ecos]

underground - 9-3-2014 at 14:44

If you really want a liquid explosive, try NM. It is safer than NG/EGDN or you can also try DEGDN

roXefeller - 9-3-2014 at 16:19

No I'm not personally familiar with EGDN, I keep backing off when I ponder the tragic history of NG. I can tell plain enough that he is going to boldly attempt it regardless the admonishment not to (from persons besides myself). And since he isn't keen on researching it for himself, I'm going with the common warnings. You'll have to forgive me for speaking of safety on materials I haven't worked with.

Turner - 9-3-2014 at 17:30

Hence, do not store liquid explosive in glass bottle, instead pick some flimsy plastic container.

Ral123 - 9-3-2014 at 23:51

Quote: Originally posted by roXefeller  
No I'm not personally familiar with EGDN, I keep backing off when I ponder the tragic history of NG. I can tell plain enough that he is going to boldly attempt it regardless the admonishment not to (from persons besides myself). And since he isn't keen on researching it for himself, I'm going with the common warnings. You'll have to forgive me for speaking of safety on materials I haven't worked with.

I suppose we both agree a novice in the hobby is very likely to have a series of nasty little(hope so) accidents and failures if he begins with nitroesters(NC is slightly less dangerous).

ecos - 10-3-2014 at 04:11

what i know that NG is very poisonous since it can be absorbed by skin , is EGDN the same?

hissingnoise - 10-3-2014 at 04:28

Exposure to EGDN produces headaches which are more intense than those of nitro ─ they are shorter lived, however, and both effects are due to EGDN's high volatility . . .

ecos - 10-3-2014 at 05:03

yes , but this is due to high volatility but what about dealing direct with hands ?

packetforger - 10-3-2014 at 05:48

I never did handle it without gloves, so I cannot say if it absorbs through the skin or not (and nor do I intend to go find out... handling anything like this is a gloves and goggles job!) but better safe than sorry.

Just wear gloves, and you will be fine. The vapors can give powerful headaches though, which aspirin do not help with. Instead a paracetamol and some coffee works wonders with nitro-headaches :)

Other handling precautions: Use thin walled plastic containers is my advice for storing these compounds. Also not storing them "straight" is another point - when I would store NG, I would store it mixed with Acetone. About 6:4 NG:Acetone by volume made it "safe" to store in a plastic bottle in the dark. I presume the same can be done with EGDN, though never stored that material.

[Edited on 10-3-2014 by packetforger]

ecos - 10-3-2014 at 12:25

Thanks packetforger , I will take what you said into consideration,

can I store nitroglycol gel in the same way with acetone or this is not needed ?

would the nitroglycol or even nitroglycol gel lose its power with time ?

I read it would loose a lot of power if stored more than 1 month !

can the acetone used in storage used again or i need to throw it ?

[Edited on 10-3-2014 by ecos]

Turner - 10-3-2014 at 15:08

Ral, Ph of 7 can be achieved or very close with EGDN and sodium bicarb, why would it not? EGDN is already slightly soluble in water, no acetone needed to dissolve it, with a good amount of water, plenty of rinsing I say sure you could get neutral EGDN w/out acetone.

This is the second inaccurate post I've seen from you, last time you were saying max density ETN needs a 5-10g booster just because you found the cast bit in a straw did not detonate. This is wrong, ETN cast in small amounts just simply may not detonate, or poor detonation because of CD limitations and critical mass to some degree.

[Edited on 11-3-2014 by Turner]

Ral123 - 10-3-2014 at 23:34

Quote: Originally posted by Turner  
Ral, Ph of 7 can be achieved or very close with EGDN and sodium bicarb, why would it not? EGDN is already slightly soluble in water, no acetone needed to dissolve it, with a good amount of water, plenty of rinsing I say sure you could get neutral EGDN w/out acetone.

This is the second inaccurate post I've seen from you, last time you were saying max density ETN needs a 5-10g booster just because you found the cast bit in a straw did not detonate. This is wrong, ETN cast in small amounts just simply may not detonate, or poor detonation because of CD limitations and critical mass to some degree.

[Edited on 11-3-2014 by Turner]

I agree, achieving neutral Ph with just water and NaHCO3 is theoretically possible, it's just that I haven't been able to do it and haven't heard of someone who did.
For the max density ETN, I said cast ETN, max density would be even worse. I said I recommend 5-10g high power pressed crystalline material. If C4 can be set off by a det cord, why won't cast ETN be initiated efficiently with modern No8 cap. It's just that I've made more then 4 tests with cast ETN and I've never got good results. In one of the tests, the diameter was about 9mm, initiation was azide-Tetryl-ETN in larger amounts then in cap No8 and aluminium confinement. There's also a video of 300g ETN/NG failure due to poor initiator design.

hissingnoise - 11-3-2014 at 02:13

Quote:
yes , but this is due to high volatility but what about dealing direct with hands ?

All of the liquid nitric esters penetrate skin to produce vasodilation, causing headache . . .

NeonPulse - 11-3-2014 at 02:51

Quote: Originally posted by ecos  
yes , but this is due to high volatility but what about dealing direct with hands ?

ethylene glycol is toxic on its own and EGDN more so. if ecos has ever experienced nitro headaches he really has not had a headache.. they are truly evil. beleive it or not i did happen to get one by prolonged handling of ETN to roll it into a plastique and it is not nice, the hot sweats and prickly feeling of the skin on the forehead. Panadol did little and icepacks placed on the head made it worse and it lasted 16 hours. so the handling of EGDN being much more volatile and a liquid the onset will be much faster. Do not handle without gloves or inhale its vapor.
A little more reseaching on your part would help you alot,and possibly prevent an accident should you go ahead with proposed synthesis.

packetforger - 11-3-2014 at 03:36

NeonPulse: nitric esters of polyols have a vasodialatory effect, the best way to counteract them in my experience has been vasoconstrictors combined with analgesics that do not have a vasodialatory effect, so aspirin based medicines are out.

Paracetamol and caffeine worked wonders, though prevention is better than cure, so I quickly learned to stop handling the stuff with bare hands or let it get in touch with me at all.

I would advise other experimenters take precautions, as they tend to be quite toxic in small doses (the inventor of nitroglycerin described the effects of a drop of NG on the tongues of dogs being fatal to them! Poor dogs!) I no longer bother handling such materials, other areas in chemistry (analytical chemistry!) have captured my interests!

ecos - 11-3-2014 at 06:10

Ok , I will take super care when dealing with it.

Now , I prepared my first sample of EGDN :) , it is just a tiny amount.it is under (cold water + NaHCO3 ) now :)

I am willing to make it in gel form , here are the methods i will follow :
1- boil Acetone
2- add nitrocellulose (10%) and keep steering till it dissolve.
3-add EGDN slowly (90%)
4- leave it to cool.

I hope it will be more stable and less volatile after this transform.

I hope if somebody would provide me with more info about the new properties of this gel form and its power vs storing time.
any texts/reference to read would be highly appreciated.

[Edited on 11-3-2014 by ecos]

Bert - 11-3-2014 at 09:04

Quote: Originally posted by ecos  


I hope if somebody would provide me with more info about the new properties of this gel form and its power vs storing time.
any texts/reference to read would be highly appreciated.

[Edited on 11-3-2014 by ecos]



Start by downloading this book, specifically you will want to read chapters XVII and XXII:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/books/nitroglycerine_e...

Then read THE WHOLE BOOK. Ask questions if you don't understand.

Then download and read this, ALL of it:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/books/the_chemistry_of...

Do this reading & ask your questions BEFORE mixing chemicals again, sometimes the dragon you have tweaked the tail of won't wait for a PM response.

Ignorance is no defense in the courtroom against charges related to removing part of your neighborhood. Or in the lab against over pressure, projectile dammage and pulmonary edema.

ecos - 11-3-2014 at 09:54

Bert, I highly appreciate your reply.

I have recently downloaded some books and I was confused which one should i start with ,I will start with your links.

I hope my little dragon stay calm till i finish my readings :D

Turner - 12-3-2014 at 18:54

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
Quote: Originally posted by Turner  
Ral, Ph of 7 can be achieved or very close with EGDN and sodium bicarb, why would it not? EGDN is already slightly soluble in water, no acetone needed to dissolve it, with a good amount of water, plenty of rinsing I say sure you could get neutral EGDN w/out acetone.

This is the second inaccurate post I've seen from you, last time you were saying max density ETN needs a 5-10g booster just because you found the cast bit in a straw did not detonate. This is wrong, ETN cast in small amounts just simply may not detonate, or poor detonation because of CD limitations and critical mass to some degree.

[Edited on 11-3-2014 by Turner]

I agree, achieving neutral Ph with just water and NaHCO3 is theoretically possible, it's just that I haven't been able to do it and haven't heard of someone who did.
For the max density ETN, I said cast ETN, max density would be even worse. I said I recommend 5-10g high power pressed crystalline material. If C4 can be set off by a det cord, why won't cast ETN be initiated efficiently with modern No8 cap. It's just that I've made more then 4 tests with cast ETN and I've never got good results. In one of the tests, the diameter was about 9mm, initiation was azide-Tetryl-ETN in larger amounts then in cap No8 and aluminium confinement. There's also a video of 300g ETN/NG failure due to poor initiator design.


Exactly, you simply cannot expect a charge of diameter only 9mm consisting of cast ETN to reliably detonate, your test showed that max density ETN (cast) is not a good candidate for the base charge in a blasting cap. I'll do a test of my own in the near future with cast ETN in amounts (20 grams or more) unconfined initiated with nothing more than a no. 8 detonator (that is a compound cap), you will be able to compare the results well to 20g of rubberized ETN/RDX I tested on this same heavy steel plate which showed decent power with a slight indentation, so we'll know if the ETN detonates, and if high-order.

Ral123 - 12-3-2014 at 22:16

I'm looking forward to it. Make sure to make a good video and upload it. My tests showed reduced performance, not no performance. Even a straw with SADS-pressed ETN, strapped on the main cast charge will explode somehow.

packetforger - 13-3-2014 at 11:24

With cast ETN, I found one needed a decently sized booster charge to get it to go at all, my first attempts with caps simply resulted in lumps of burned ETN scattered all over the place. Cast ETN is a funny one in how insensitive it is compared to the parent material...