Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Staying Safe on this Subforum

JeffreyScovil - 25-1-2014 at 06:29

(This applies mostly to American users, but some tips are just good common sense for everybody).

This board has a notoriously high turnover rate. Some of us move on to other areas of chemistry, others get bored, still others become unable to participate due to family or financial issues, or moving somewhere too crowded to practice their hobby.

Then there are those who injure themselves or are arrested.

For avoiding injuries, there is a great deal of safety information already available on these boards. For not being arrested, not so much.

Now, if you are intending to cause harm or damage people or property with explosives, we're all rooting for you to be caught before ruining everything for the rest of us. But unlike model rocket or firearm enthusiasts, we are not given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to responsible use of our hobby.

According to the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, it is illegal at the federal level merely to manufacture explosives without a license, regardless of whether you are making them on your own property and for your personal use. If you store them, you will probably be nailed for storage outside a licensed magazine, plus relevant state laws on that, in addition to the manufacturing charge at the federal level and possibly state level.

Nitrocellulose and picric acid are the exceptions for federal (but not always state or county) laws; Just keep those guys super moist (30% water by mass).

Here are a few other common sense tips:

**Don't post videos of explosions, devices, or syntheses on YouTube, or photos of same on Photobucket, imgur, Imageshack, etc. Remove the location data with an external application, then upload the picture or video file to the https version of sciencemadness.org directly, preferably via proxy.

**Keep all correspondence with other users limited to the PM function of sciencemadness.org. Keep your email address to yourself.

**Do not respond to PMs asking for clarifications on explosive or explosive precursor syntheses, etc., other than to instruct them in the use of the search function (though try not to be rude about it). Questions about syntheses or properties should be posted in the relevant thread.

**If you receive a PM from someone asking you to purchase explosive chemicals or explosive precursors on their behalf, or for directions to over-the-counter sources of explosive precursors, ignore them. Such questions go in the Reagent and Apparatus Acquisition section of the board.

Jmap science - 25-1-2014 at 07:35

good rules, its sad how the media makes us look like a threat. What if we were to raise public awareness.

Bert - 25-1-2014 at 09:12

Quote: Originally posted by JeffreyScovil  

According to the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, it is illegal at the federal level merely to manufacture explosives without a license, regardless of whether you are making them on your own property and for your personal use.


I would like to see a published source for that statement.

Here is a quote from a page currently part of the BATFE web site:

http://www.atf.gov/explosives/how-to/binary-explosives.html
Quote:

Persons manufacturing explosives for their own personal, non-business use only (e.g., personal target practice) are not required to have a Federal explosives license or permit


And another, specific to fireworks:

http://www.atf.gov/explosives/how-to/fireworks-safety-and-se...
Quote:

You may manufacture display fireworks for personal use at your property without obtaining a Federal explosives license or permit (a manufacturer’s license is needed only by persons engaged in the business of manufacturing fireworks for sale, distribution, or other commercial purpose).


I certainly do agree that the storage and transportation issues makes unlicensed manufacture for personal use difficult to do legaly.

I also am quite aware that anyone placing online photo or video documentation of themselves breaking the law is an idiot, and the time & GPS stamping features of many recording devices are absolute heaven for a clued in prosecution.

[Edited on 25-1-2014 by Bert]

The_Davster - 25-1-2014 at 09:34

Canada :
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._59...
34. A person may, for the purpose of laboratory chemical experiment and not for practical use or sale, make a small quantity of explosive in a place that is not a licensed factory if reasonable precautions are observed to prevent injury to persons or damage to property and if the provisions of the Act and these Regulations are observed as far as they are otherwise applicable.

roXefeller - 25-1-2014 at 19:49

To add to Bert, the legality of this manufacture depends to an extent on the final application. Small arms were given some exception to the manufacture regulations. The definition of manufacture is given as “Manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for purposes of sale or distribution or for his own use. (S1102 Title 18 Ch40 841(h)). And 842(a)(1) says its illegal without permit, excepting small arms ammunition and components thereof (845(a)(4)). This is also echoed in 27 CFR 555.2.

[Edited on 26-1-2014 by roXefeller]

Semiexpyrokid - 17-8-2015 at 07:25

One thing that strikes me as obvious (Someone HAS to have pointed this out -- if I have a valid point -- and if so please forgive me for not seeing it).

If you can stay legal by using a binary explosive mixture, and y only, "combining them at the time of use", it seems that since you can't "use" the final product instantly, then might you be converting between committing a felony for a week (say LOL), to only being a non-convicted felon for 10 minutes (say LOL)? :-) For Tannerite you still have to set up the target and shoot it. ONLY THEN HAS IT BEEN USED! LOL. Actually I'm serious here, 99% because I'm just curious, as if everyone's doing it, it's like being in a school of fish with a shark. Plus, I'd avoid being caught anyway, still...
I'm just talking legality. With the Tannerite mixture, safety isn't a big driver, of course with some mixtures, the safety gain from the method dwarfs any legal trivia questions.LOL

aga - 17-8-2015 at 07:44

You forgot to say "hi. I've been lurking on this forum for some time" in between the LOLs.

gdflp - 17-8-2015 at 08:04

Quote: Originally posted by JeffreyScovil  

**Do not respond to PMs asking for clarifications on explosive or explosive precursor syntheses, etc., other than to instruct them in the use of the search function (though try not to be rude about it). Questions about syntheses or properties should be posted in the relevant thread.
What's the harm in this? Since when is information illegal in the United States? As long as you're not assisting something obviously illegal, I see no reason why you could break the law by providing theoretical information, no matter the subject.
Quote: Originally posted by aga  
You forgot to say "hi. I've been lurking on this forum for some time" in between the LOLs.
Don't get touchy aga. Just because the hillbillies(No offense Zombie;)) at the other forum were sticklers doesn't mean you have to be as well:P

Hawkguy - 17-8-2015 at 09:02

Quote: Originally posted by The_Davster  
Canada :
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._59...
34. A person may, for the purpose of laboratory chemical experiment and not for practical use or sale, make a small quantity of explosive in a place that is not a licensed factory if reasonable precautions are observed to prevent injury to persons or damage to property and if the provisions of the Act and these Regulations are observed as far as they are otherwise applicable.
doesn't it say that those laws were repealed two years ago? EDIT: Never mind thats only a bit. Looks like its still good.

[Edited on 17-8-2015 by Hawkguy]

aga - 17-8-2015 at 09:26

Quote: Originally posted by Hawkguy  
34. A person may, for the purpose of laboratory chemical experiment and not for practical use or sale, make a small quantity

Those two parts need specific definition, or the law applies in a Blanket fasion : 'not for practical use' and 'small quantity'.

Hawkguy - 17-8-2015 at 11:10

Hmm it looks like that's not really a loophole, as other stuff would convict a would be pyrotechnic chemist as well.

KesterDraconis - 23-8-2015 at 17:28

So let me ask this, if I own a cartridge that uses double base powder to fire a bullet am I a felon? I technically am in possession of, and store and transport, without a permit, nitroglycerin. Similarly, if I own nitroglycerin pills for my heart issues, am I a felon? In that form its certainly not going to explode, but regardless of that Nitroglycerin is in fact an explosive material. If I own a cold pack or fertilizer containing any Ammonium Nitrate, am I also a felon? Its an explosive material. If I own MEKP in a solution that has some sort of stabilizer in it, I have to ask again, am I a felon?

There are probably laws around these things, little loopholes and nonsense that no ordinary citizen will ever have the time in their life to fully read over and understand. The truth of the matter here is that such a case, any law that is so exhaustive that it is unreasonable for the ordinary citizen to fully understand, is tyrannical.

What part of the plain and simple language of the constitution regarding the right to bear arms did the US citizenry fail to understand? Were they simply scared till their minds left them? Were they, and are we, too obsessed with the cradling arm of government to simply stop and think?!

I simply wish to learn from and enjoy my hobby, but the questions raised regarding this raise larger questions that simply can't be answered. There is simply no argument for the laws currently in place against us, and that is simply infuriating.

[Edited on 24-8-2015 by KesterDraconis]

Some people just don't get it

franklyn - 23-8-2015 at 21:46

But what do I know

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=62691

szuko03 - 25-8-2015 at 09:10

I think there are 2 main ways people get caught up in legal issues related to this

The first is as mentioned, thinking what they are doing is somehow cool or unique and that other people have some type of interest in what they are doing. These are the types that make something easy that explodes easily and instantly think "omg this must go on youtube" my question is why? No one cares that you made 5g of tatp and put it in a pen no one thinks thats cool except little kids who ask how to do it. Then theres the whole issue of people "thinking" they are good or knowledgeable on something only to not really be and their belief they are leads them to not realize their mistakes or below average approach.

I think this is the easiest thing to avoid. Just know that everyone has done what you are doing before, in regards to this subforum, so maybe posting videos of you making tnt isnt a good idea especially since it wont get more views then the 10 other people who have videos up.

the second is random chance in a sense. You leave some hydrochloric acid in the window and you overly suspicious neighbors call the police thinking they are helping the community. This is not as easy to avoid since some stuff is out of your control. If a delivery man comes marching up to have you sign a package and sees you distilling something, will he call the cops thinking hes a good person?

otherwise the only thing you can really do is not do anything wrong. synthesis things in small batches and dont store them. Eventually a lot of us move on to other parts of chemistry and energetics just serve as an attention getter grabbing new minds in for the ride. If someone came to my house they would see appropriate label pyrochemicals unmixed and not in tubing and a heck of a lot of info on making fountains and other guides but i dont have anything on flash powder those things they are too simple and boring to have how to guides on. Also i have all of my invoices for my purchases with suppliers ect. It may not save me but couple all fo that with some formal training in chemistry maybe someone will go "he seems to keep this whole thing professional" and maybe that thought will stop it from becoming some huge thing. But again nothing i keep is illegal by law.

[Edited on 25-8-2015 by szuko03]

chemrox - 25-8-2015 at 10:00

Quote: Originally posted by KesterDraconis  
So let me ask this, if I own a cartridge that uses double base powder to fire a bullet am I a felon? I technically am in possession of, and store and transport, without a permit, nitroglycerin. Similarly, if I own nitroglycerin pills for my heart issues, am I a felon? In that form its certainly not going to explode, but regardless of that Nitroglycerin is in fact an explosive material. If I own a cold pack or fertilizer containing any Ammonium Nitrate, am I also a felon? Its an explosive material. If I own MEKP in a solution that has some sort of stabilizer in it, I have to ask again, am I a felon?

There are probably laws around these things, little loopholes and nonsense that no ordinary citizen will ever have the time in their life to fully read over and understand. The truth of the matter here is that such a case, any law that is so exhaustive that it is unreasonable for the ordinary citizen to fully understand, is tyrannical.

What part of the plain and simple language of the constitution regarding the right to bear arms did the US citizenry fail to understand? Were they simply scared till their minds left them? Were they, and are we, too obsessed with the cradling arm of government to simply stop and think?!

I simply wish to learn from and enjoy my hobby, but the questions raised regarding this raise larger questions that simply can't be answered. There is simply no argument for the laws currently in place against us, and that is simply infuriating.

[Edited on 24-8-2015 by KesterDraconis]


This deserves to be "retweeted." Or made a sticky

chemrox - 25-8-2015 at 10:10

I think the mods could be more helpful at times. I had a crazy stalking me here. I could only retire from the forum until he got distracted by his life again. Be careful whom you "friend' in facebook. It's best to maintain separation between this forum and all others. There are people who flame whenever they get on a forum of any kind. Be careful of them.

szuko03 - 25-8-2015 at 11:29

Quote: Originally posted by chemrox  
I think the mods could be more helpful at times. I had a crazy stalking me here. I could only retire from the forum until he got distracted by his life again. Be careful whom you "friend' in facebook. It's best to maintain separation between this forum and all others. There are people who flame whenever they get on a forum of any kind. Be careful of them.


I agree with you though the same can be said about all forums online. I once had the same thing happen to me but I am a mod on the other forum but that didnt mean i could just ban the dude we need to have a discussion. But the sad thing is it was all because i said "oh someday i will do (something) for you!" just out of happiness and whatever but he like literally expected me to deliver on something crazy because i had jokingly said it and he was only half there mentally and took it as 100% serious. And i got lucky he cant type to save his life and one of the things he said looked like a direct threat so it was easy to ban him after that had he done it through PMs and not been so direct ti probably wouldnt have been so easy and may have ruined the forum for me.

You definitely need to be careful who you meet and what you say

[Edited on 25-8-2015 by szuko03]

aga - 25-8-2015 at 11:42

There is no absolute 'Safety' of any kind, ever.

If you have a Lab and want to Do Stuff you must make it as safe as you can, and that includes sheer common sense.

If you have your lab in your hallway, then obviously the delivery guy will see your stuff immediately.

If your lab has windows, Frost them so nobody can easily look inside.

If you wish to make explosives and drugs, well, you deserve to be caught and put in prison.

However, if you were to do that Elsewhere with no connection to yourself or your Home, then that'd be a lot Safer don't you think ?

Posting videos on utoob about how you made whacko-A-acid would also be plain stupid, same as 'How i blew up my car' videos.

Chemistry is a sensitive subject at the moment, however not as sensitive as a hobby involving the stockpiling of plutonium bought from Ebay for example.

Staying out of trouble is all common sense : pose no threat, raise no suspicion, expect no reaction.

szuko03 - 25-8-2015 at 12:12

Quote: Originally posted by KesterDraconis  
What part of the plain and simple language of the constitution regarding the right to bear arms did the US citizenry fail to understand? Were they simply scared till their minds left them? Were they, and are we, too obsessed with the cradling arm of government to simply stop and think?!

I simply wish to learn from and enjoy my hobby, but the questions raised regarding this raise larger questions that simply can't be answered. There is simply no argument for the laws currently in place against us, and that is simply infuriating.

[Edited on 24-8-2015 by KesterDraconis]


The thing about this hobby as it relates to people in the US, sure we have a lot of things banned and whatever but we actually have it easy in regards to this hobby. Ask someone from AU what happens if they buy a trineck flask? I am not trying to be mean or something but there really arent as many red flags and issues pertaining to this hobby in the US. To act like we have it the worst is to have a very limited world view. Plus explosives dont fall under the right to bare arms or shouldnt as there is way more room for error lol

Also your making a lot of judgments about it being all or nothing. You most likely wouldnt be a felon in any of the situations you mentioned due to the amount of the compounds and their use. IF you are improvising weapons however as they can often be dangerous to those around you, you are probably ok as long as its on your property and you arent being investigated for something already.

I am saying this as someone who has been through the system both educational and correctional with a brother in prison. Im not saying the world is perfect but its not that bad it gets easier when your older too because you dont have that younger person up to no good thing lol

[Edited on 25-8-2015 by szuko03]

KesterDraconis - 26-8-2015 at 12:37

Quote: Originally posted by szuko03  

To act like we have it the worst is to have a very limited world view. Plus explosives dont fall under the right to bare arms or shouldnt as there is way more room for error lol

Also your making a lot of judgments about it being all or nothing. You most likely wouldnt be a felon in any of the situations you mentioned due to the amount of the compounds and their use. IF you are improvising weapons however as they can often be dangerous to those around you, you are probably ok as long as its on your property and you arent being investigated for something already.

I am saying this as someone who has been through the system both educational and correctional with a brother in prison.

[Edited on 25-8-2015 by szuko03]


I'm not saying I have it the worst, but that simple fact doesn't make it right. Explosives most definitely fall under the right to bear arms. The founding fathers knew what power weaponry would eventually develop, but already they were witnessing the power of chemistry in cannons. Which, by the way, fell under the right to bear arms. They assuredly knew who Guy Fawkes was, and what would have happened had his plan succeeded, yet they wrote the 2nd Amendment anyway.

BTW this is what would have happened had Guy Fawkes succeeded. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbvNIaC3gKM

Read the law of a few states, some states make the possession of explosives (without specifying quantity or state they are in) illegal, and that is it. The result of lawyers without scientific understanding or advice deciding the laws. You are right however in most things being generally ok if its on your property away from other people and the police aren't already investigating you for say, drug manufacturing.

szuko03 - 26-8-2015 at 12:51

So your saying someone who is 18 years of age, has no formal chemistry training/knowledge has the "right" to try to synthesis TNT in a residential area? There is a huge difference between a cannon and an unstable molecule that reacts violently when exposed to stress in the simple fact you point a cannon and shoot it.

I love chemistry and i love freedom but as far as i am concerned the scenario i stated is why its illegal. If you dont live in a residential area ie the desert or maybe (and this is a big maybe) a farm like a commercial 100s of ache property where if you kill yourself and destroy a city block no one will hear it.

I think in todays crowded society these types of regulations are needed. It prevents people who need to mature a bit and realize how dangerous stuff is from hurting themselves before they can grow into a scientist. I think it should be easier to get "qualified" in amateur science so amateurs can learn chemistry and become chemists who can do stuff at home but i dont think reading a forum or having someone post synthesis instructions means anyone should be able to try. You dont read a forum on rock climbing and then immediately try to scale Everest.

I also want to restate these are my feelings on it and i know passions run hot in this area so i dont want you to take it the wrong way, especially if i somehow made it seem like i was belittling you, my "doomsday" senario involves someone who wouldnt know about this forum because even just knowing this forum puts you ahead :)

[Edited on 26-8-2015 by szuko03]

aga - 26-8-2015 at 13:20

szuko03 the voice of Reason.

I agree with all of that.

People talking about Rights and the 'Constitution' are firstly under some illusion that it means anything or is enforced (or even protected) and use that excuse like a petulant child would say 'I want a doughnut cos my sister got one'.

Young and ignorant, old and stupid, intelligent and informed, there is no Case where an individual should posess a loaded Assault Rifle, Rocket Propelled Grenade or 1kg of TNT in an apartment block, for any reason other than personal protection.

If they are Needed for personal protection then the Rule of Law has ceased to exist where they live, erasing any such ideas pertaining to Law or Rights.

[Edited on 26-8-2015 by aga]

KesterDraconis - 26-8-2015 at 13:52

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
szuko03 the voice of Reason.
[Edited on 26-8-2015 by aga]


Reason you say? Is following the principle of a matter to its logical end really unreasonable?
Quote:

then the Rule of Law has ceased to exist where they live


Which is a very potential scenario, and when that happens, its the guy without a way to defend himself, to enforce the inalienable rights he possesses, that becomes a victim. Its not about imminent or immediate problems, its about that old motto "Be prepared."

@szuko03 When you say this,

"So your saying someone who is 18 years of age, has no formal chemistry training/knowledge has the "right" to try to synthesis TNT in a residential area?"

All I have to say is it depends on the amount and intent. I never said people have the right to endanger others frivolously (Similarly, I think you can own a rifle, you just can't wave it around at people for fun). Explosives are still weapons that you can direct, and its only after a certain point (which is rather large) that they legitimately cannot be directed at a specific attacker (as nuclear or biological weapons are), and you don't have a right to them.

E.g. Many kilograms of TATP in your apartment building. This would be ok by me if it were out in the countryside and its just you (eh, incredibly stupid, but its your own life), but right next to your neighbor is needlessly endangering his life.

P.S. Oh, and Aga, 1 kg of TNT is end of the world stuff, but this is ok as long as we have a nice video telling people to be safe? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7xFXxwZMNA

I mean, calculate the force behind cars for a moment, look up how much kinetic energy is involved in the movement of a car on the interstate.

[Edited on 26-8-2015 by KesterDraconis]

[Edited on 26-8-2015 by KesterDraconis]

aga - 26-8-2015 at 14:17

Cars are a good example of how we accept a serious tangible risk of Killing others for the sake of convenience (all Safety features in a car protect the occupants, not pedestrians).

Death by Cars is accepted by most, yet the ownership of 1kg of TNT in a cardboard box at home in a 9 story apartment block is not acceptable.

Subtle distinctions really, as death results from both, more by cars.

Ownership of Guns by urban dwellers is not acceptable : there is no need for a gun in an apartment block in a civilised country, well protected by it's armed forces, law enforcement and intelligence agencies.

If there is a real need for a gun, well, the fabric of civilisation is broken in that place, as a fundamental Right must be to Live without fear of being killed by your neighbours every day.

Rural dwellers need to cull trespassers (campers) from the cities once in a while to keep the numbers down so they actually do have a justifiable case to have a gun and ammo at home.