Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Short-Delay Electronic Blasting System

Short-Delay Electronic Blasting System

aldofad - 1-1-2014 at 11:40

Hello world,
please take a look at my Short-Delay Electronic Blasting System under development.
I will appreciate any comments and critics.

Happy new year!
Cheers,

aldo

Dany - 1-1-2014 at 12:03

Very beautiful work aldofad, as a first look this system has a great potential in initiating a Fuel Air Explosive. the first charge will detonate the canister holding the flammable liquid that will be dispersed as an aerosol, then after a short delay (which need to be calculated) the second charge detonate which in turn detonate the cloud setting a huge detonation. The most interesting part is the modifiable time for the second iniation.

Dany.

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by Dany]

aldofad - 1-1-2014 at 12:10

Quote: Originally posted by Dany

Very beautiful work aldofad

Thanks! But this is just the first prototype

Quote: Originally posted by Dany

this system has a great potential in initiating a Fuel Air Explosive

Wow! Never heard about this. I'm going to study it...

Dany - 1-1-2014 at 12:13

you can have an idea on Fuel Air Explosive by looking at this movie (skip to 2:05)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkeOHh8AoBM

Dany.

Hennig Brand - 1-1-2014 at 12:54

Very neat! Always wanted to experiment with Fuel Air Explosives. Any chance of getting a look at the schematic?

bfesser - 1-1-2014 at 13:03

So, you've made an electronic timer? What's so special about that? Also, detonating any quantity of lead(II) azide indoors seems not only irresponsible but idiotic.

aldofad - 1-1-2014 at 13:09

Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand

Very neat! Always wanted to experiment with Fuel Air Explosives. Any chance of getting a look at the schematic?

Please be patient, this is just the first prototype. I'm developing this product for a paying committer in my country. As I'll be the real producer until on sale, I'll put this electronic stuff on ebay at the price of production only for sciencemadness subscribed friends.
There is no reason to get now this electronic home made while you can have it industry made next month more or less.
More serious testing is also expected.

cheers

aldofad - 1-1-2014 at 13:17

Quote: Originally posted by bfesser

So, you've made an electronic timer? What's so special about that? Also, detonating any quantity of lead(II) azide indoors seems not only irresponsible but idiotic.

Its not a timer. Electric power for blast comes from remote station. Only logic is internally powered. The main carrying cable can be destroyed before all the blast trigger fire, in such events the detonation will continue independently. At the moment there is no way on the market to get this feature. A detonating cord can also be interrupted during explosions, more often when using delay relays.

Irresponsible and idiotic should be based on the amount of explosive involved, in the doubt terms should be more moderated. Poison is often a medicine when used in small quantities.

roXefeller - 1-1-2014 at 13:20

Its not so much an electronic timer, but a small wire firing system that relies on charging a proximal capacitor and then shorting through the blasting caps. Capacitors can pump out lots of current if the load resistance is small (which it is when it's a short wirelength to the cap). It solves the problem of determining the resistance offered by the firing wire and the expense of high current wires being degraded/shortened by repeated explosions. It makes it easier to build in the time delays in a multicharge demolition, such as the fuel air, where one charge is actuated mseconds before the other. The variability in resistance and length makes it difficult and more expensive to achieve these short delays. The idea of using capacitors for this is an older idea, but he has done a good job at executing it and combining with a timer.

We should nickname you 'gallagher' for all the produce you've smashed from a distance. Do you provide a comedy routine before the show?

Hennig Brand - 1-1-2014 at 13:22

Quote: Originally posted by bfesser

So, you've made an electronic timer? What's so special about that? Also, detonating any quantity of lead(II) azide indoors seems not only irresponsible but idiotic.

If it's a timer well suited to the application that makes it special. I am also guilty of detonating very small quantities of lead azide indoors, on occasion, which isn't the best idea given the lead content.

Dany - 1-1-2014 at 13:26

Quote: Originally posted by aldofad

[/rquote]
Its not a timer. Electric power for blast comes from remote station. Only logic is internally powered. The main carrying cable can be destroyed before all the blast trigger fire, in such events the detonation will continue independently. At the moment there is no way on the market to get this feature. A detonating cord can also be interrupted during explosions, more often when using delay relays.

Irresponsible and idiotic should be based on the amount of explosive involved, in the doubt terms should be more moderated. Poison is often a medicine when used in small quantities.

Is this new product protected by a patent? btw, bfesser is wright about the poisoning effect of lead when Pb(N₃)₂ detonate. When you detonate lead azide indoor without the presence of wright ventilation or outside a fume hood can be dangerous since ou generate gaseous lead that can be inhale easily. lead and mercury are chronic poison that act with time and destroy your nerve system so pay attention to this side.

Dany.

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by Dany]

aldofad - 1-1-2014 at 13:28

Quote: Originally posted by roXefeller

Its not so much an electronic timer, but a small wire firing system that relies on charging a proximal capacitor and then shorting through the blasting caps. Capacitors can pump out lots of current if the load resistance is small (which it is when it's a short wirelength to the cap). It solves the problem of determining the resistance offered by the firing wire and the expense of high current wires being degraded/shortened by repeated explosions. It makes it easier to build in the time delays in a multicharge demolition, such as the fuel air, where one charge is actuated mseconds before the other. The variability in resistance and length makes it difficult and more expensive to achieve these short delays. The idea of using capacitors for this is an older idea, but he has done a good job at executing it and combining with a timer.

You got the point. You are correct.
I'm simply an electronic developer. I was presented some requisites to solve and respect and I've come up with this solution. The system works at 36V, no dangerous at all. No need to calculate cable sections, resistances, ... just wait some seconds for the current to completely flow in to the capacitors.
After that the power supply cable can be destroyed. The blasting devices will continue independently

cheers

aldofad - 1-1-2014 at 13:38

Quote: Originally posted by Dany

Is this new product protected by a patent?

No reason for a patent. A young electronic developer can copy the product easily.
There are other electronic blasters on the market and they are cheaper than this product. The problem is that the electronic blasters today on the market are dependent from the remote power station during the explosions. Should the main cable be damaged during blasts then you got an half demolished site with unexploded charges.

cheers

Hennig Brand - 1-1-2014 at 13:42

So this system is a "consumable" then, since it would be destroyed in any significant blast, given the short wire length. Another thought, it is often necessary to call off a blast at a moments notice, sometimes even moments before detonation. You still do have control do you, after initiation of the system?

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by Hennig Brand]

aldofad - 1-1-2014 at 13:58

Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand

So this system is a "consumable" then, since it would be destroyed in any significant blast, given the short wire length. Another thought, it is often necessary to call off a blast at a moments notice, sometimes even moments before detonation. You still do have control do you, after initiation of the system?

You got the idea. Yes, this product is "consumable" and will not be cheap. They need it for building demolitions with high risk of destruction of the main cable before the end of all the detonations.
Yes, you can call off the blast even if you have pushed the red button by simply holding that button for more than 8 seconds. Detonations start when you release the fire button between 3 and 8 seconds. I had no commitment indications for this, so I've made up this logic by myself and I find it good.

aldofad - 1-1-2014 at 14:02

Quote: Originally posted by bfesser

So, you've made an electronic timer? What's so special about that?

I appreciate all critics. I'm updating the video to make a more clear description that this is not a timer.
Thanks, cheers

bfesser - 1-1-2014 at 14:07

Sorry, I didn't intend to criticize. I genuinely don't understand what's significant about what you've made. I don't follow energetic materials, but I'm interested any time I see electronics. I look forward to learning more about your innovation.

aldofad - 1-1-2014 at 14:11

Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand

You still do have control do you, after initiation of the system?

I forgot to say that the capacitors are automatically discharged on an internal resistance permanently shorted when the electronic is switched off.

Cheers

aldofad - 1-1-2014 at 14:18

Quote: Originally posted by bfesser

I genuinely don't understand what's significant about what you've made.

If you don't understand then I'm guilty to be unclear.
The problem with all the detonation systems today is that they all rely on a main cable from remote user until all detonations are over.
If the main cable gets damaged during explosions then the detonations are interrupted.
This is true for detonating cords, Nonel systems, electric systems and electronics systems.
Please let me know your thoughts.

Cheers

Dany - 1-1-2014 at 14:27

aldofad,

what are you telling about detacord and Nonel is true, however how much is the percentage that these system fail? very small in the hand of an expert. also the detacord is simpler to use than an electric system (this is the main advantage). But your system remain a nice idea for performing blast operation and as i already mentioned has a potential in Fuel Air Explosive device.

Dany.

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by Dany]

bfesser - 1-1-2014 at 16:43

Quote: Originally posted by aldofad

The problem with all the detonation systems today is that they all rely on a main cable from remote user until all detonations are over. If the main cable gets damaged during explosions then the detonations are interrupted.

Thank you for the clarification. So if I'm interpreting this correctly, your system is comprised of independent nodes, which are each capable of activating at the correct time, even if communication with the primary control module is interrupted? I've re-watched your video, and it made a lot more sense to me this time. Thank you. I'm curious though, why is such a high voltage (18V) necessary for the logic supply? It would be nice to see schematics, if you're willing to share; perhaps we could suggest some optimization.

Anyway, I like your novel solution to this problem, and that it lends greater safety to sequenced detonations as are frequently used in demolitions. Nice work! I look forward to seeing the final product.

[edit] Sorry, it seems that many posts have been made while I was writing this reply, and my questions may have been answered. I think my browser cache is playing tricks on me... I'll take a look at the above replies. [2nd edit] Nope. Still wondering why 18V was chosen.

[Edited on 2.1.14 by bfesser]

roXefeller - 1-1-2014 at 17:14

Quote: Originally posted by Dany

aldofad,

what are you telling about detacord and Nonel is true, however how much is the percentage that these system fail? very small in the hand of an expert. also the detacord is simpler to use than an electric system (this is the main advantage). But your system remain a nice idea for performing blast operation and as i already mentioned has a potential in Fuel Air Explosive device.

Dany.

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by Dany]

Will this system improve the reliability of such operations (less complexity perhaps, would mean better reliability) or reduce cost?

Dany - 1-1-2014 at 17:33

The question here is not reliability or cost. the important question is what new applications can we explore with the improved device of aldofad. i already mention one which is Fuel Air Explosive (FAE). As i already mention in the first post, a successful FAE event heavily rely on the delay between the dispersing of the fuel and the detonation of the second charge. If detonation of the second charge is too quick, the cloud (fuel+air) may not detonate or detonate partially since it is very fuel rich. On the contrary if the charge detonate too late, the cloud is too diluted with oxygen which may cause partial detonation. So precise timing is needed, and this is what can aldofad achieved with his device. Now, the write delay for ignition need to be calculated and since this delay time depend on many factors (size of the FAE, wind condition...) such calculation become very tedious. The best choice is to find this delay time empirically, by detonating several FAE device having the same size and the same weather condition. if pressure gauge can be found, we can monitor the pressure of the blast wave from the FAE and based on these information you can optimize your FAE.

Dany.

[Edited on 2-1-2014 by Dany]

aldofad - 1-1-2014 at 17:36

Quote: Originally posted by bfesser

It would be nice to see schematics, if you're willing to share; perhaps we could suggest some optimization.

This is the PCB Layout
You see an ATMEGA328 and an optoisolator on the left.
The huge capacitor is in the middle between two 9V batteries.
At the right of the ATMEGA328 there is a big automotive relay capable of switching 40A safely, its coils need 12V to get excited and that's why I've opted for a couple of 9V batteries.
You got right with your observation about the internal 18V, perfectly right! The ATMEGA328 only takes 5V and it is the biggest consumer. I need an extra 7V to excite the big relay but there is no 12V not rechargeable battery with that voltage and a good amperage.
I know I'm wasting 13V in heat for most of the time. I'm still considering using a step up switching voltage regulator but it costs a lot. I'll taken this decision later when I'm sure about what detonator will be adopted.
The whole system consumes 70mA, big relay excluded.

The capacitor is huge: 40V and 33mF of capacity!

I know that the system is tremendously oversized even for a very high intensitive detonator, but at this stage is ok. I'm still waiting for a bunch of commercial detonators to adopt from my customer in order to better evaluate the current consumption of the detonator, but I can't stand still on the project so I've built some detonators at home and I've no doubt that this prototypes can instantly burn any bridge wire.
Bear in mind also that I'll never rely on any commercial datasheet of a detonator, I want to test by myself in my lab, those datasheets are too much often untrue.
The last thing I want to happen now is to fail in a demonstration at a quarry with my customer. That must not happen. Nobody is taking care of costs or dimensions at the moment, they just want to see big explosions perfectly timed to start funding me seriously...

I will reduce the sizes of the electronic later when I'll got a sure information on what detonator I'll have to adopt.

Thanks for your interest,
Cheers

aldofad - 1-1-2014 at 17:52

Quote: Originally posted by roXefeller

Will this system improve the reliability of such operations (less complexity perhaps, would mean better reliability) or reduce cost?

Well, I'm an electronic developer, I've no real world experience with detonations, that's not my job.
I'm receiving a constant feedback from my customer and what I've been told is this:

- less complexity: a lot. No cable section to calculate. No resistance to measure. No high voltage. You decide on the field the delay for each blaster. There is no limit to the blasting devices, you just wait some more seconds to charge.

- better reliability: yes sir. There is a green led blinking indicating that the device is up and running. Another led remains ON after fire and this is fantastic from my point of view because you can set up the entire mine field and simulate the explosions without the detonators, than you examine each device to be sure that they correctly received the fire signal. The risk of failed detonation is reduced because every blaster is electrical autonomous and well protected from noise.

- reduce cost: NO.

aldofad - 1-1-2014 at 18:05

Quote: Originally posted by Dany

The question here is not reliability or cost. the important question is what new applications can we explore with the improved device of aldofad. i already mention one which is Fuel Air Explosive (FAE).

I got your interest in FAE. Well, with a couple of my prototypes you can accomplish your needs and burn any bridge wire with perfect interval precision.
Obviously my system was not developed for a binary explosion so you'll have some components overload. But sure perfect for testings

bfesser - 1-1-2014 at 18:29

I like how you've used an optocoupler. Surely there's a reliable and cheap solid state means of switching the relatively high-current that you're applying to the ignitors, which would allow you to run the system off 6-9V. Are there any solid state relays rated for such high current? Even if they're not, if the device is expendable... as long as it doesn't burn out before the detonator. Reliable high current relays generally aren't cheap, at least in my experience.

Finally, is there a particular reason you're working with an ATMega328? Are you programming through Arduino IDE? You might be able to get away with an ATTiny2313/4313 or even an ATTiny84/85. They're significantly cheaper, and have Arduino cores available online.

[Edited on 2.1.14 by bfesser]

aldofad - 1-1-2014 at 18:33

Quote: Originally posted by roXefeller

The idea of using capacitors for this is an older idea, but he has done a good job at executing it and combining with a timer.

I should have noticed earlier your observation. You are correct and wrong at the same time...
Practically all the blasting machines for electric detonations on the market use a big capacitor charged at high voltage ranging from 500V to 3000V at several millifarads, see Schaffler for example.
Getting in touch with such a huge capacitor when loaded can easily result in a fatal death experience as that capacitor can provide those letal (often) 25mA through a human body.
But this capacitor is only inside the main remote station with the big red fire button.
I'm simply dividing all that huge and dangerous power in the main station across every detonator with low voltage and making them independent.

aldofad - 1-1-2014 at 19:08

Quote: Originally posted by bfesser

I like how you've used an optocoupler. Surely there's a reliable and cheap solid state means of switching the relatively high-current that you're applying to the ignitors, which would allow you to run the system off 6-9V. Are there any solid state relays rated for such high current? Even if they're not, if the device is expendable... as long as it doesn't burn out before the detonator. Reliable high current relays generally aren't cheap, at least in my experience.

Finally, is there a particular reason you're working with an ATMega328? Are you programming through Arduino IDE? You might be able to get away with an ATTiny2313/4313 or even an ATTiny84/85. They're significantly cheaper, and have Arduino cores available online.

Good talking with you.
I'll never put a solid state relay inside this project and I explain you the reason.
1) The cost for the amperage I need is very high but this not the problem
2) Solid state relay are good on high frequency applications, I got no frequency at all here. Just a single contact and boom.
3) Solid state relay are delicate components. I'm talking about those driven by voltage and all those sensible to zero cross current. I know that I'm not exhaustive and totally correct, but I really don't like them.
4) Relays exists from 1830 and they have not been replaced by transistors because they have the strength of mechanic and native electric isolation. I consider this project a sort of mission critical device. I want on the field a big relay with gold or silver plated contacts and makes me happy to hear the 'click' when it get excited.
5) I've never seen a broken relay in my life when running at nominal conditions. Instead I've seen bunch of transistor broken when running well below nominal conditions. Solid state relay are made up of transistors

I use the ATMEGA328 subclocked at 8MHz in order to get more reliability and less consumption. The fire signal goes through interrupt resulting in an extreme interval precision.
I'm not sure ATTiny devices have enough I/O for this application. I've never used any ATTiny, I just feel confident with the ATMEGA328, but sure your choice may be correct too.
Yes, I use an Arduino IDE, I can't work without Object Programming...

I appreciate your posts, thanks for submitting. Your concerns are correct and I've gone through them too taking my decisions.
Bear in mind that what I'm doing can be realized for sure in many other ways, you could probably realize a different project for the same purpose.
First of all, what is really important, is that you trust what you are doing. This application is a sort of mission critical system, people may even lose their life for our mistakes in the project, and this is not the project for me to learn or make new experiments.
I will be pleased to continue this technical discussion

cheers

Electronic Blasting System - New Version

aldofad - 10-2-2014 at 09:03

Hello world,
please take a look at my new Electronic Blasting System still under development.
Once again, I will appreciate any comments and critics.

Cheers,

aldo

Motherload - 10-2-2014 at 09:44

Looks freaking awesome.. Especially the last sequence.
You don't like squashes much do you ? Lol.

Zyklon-A - 10-2-2014 at 09:48

Yes, good job, quality is very important.

aldofad - 21-3-2015 at 23:23

Hy guys,
please see my new video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VSGKwTszBw, I never shared here. Please don't care about the extra delay in the last explosion, this happen sometimes because I dont press the lead azide.

I've finished the development of the electronic detonator. It took a long time...
The product itself is designed for blasting booster. Please click on images to enjoy full size.

The system provides several unique features:
- Virtually unlimited number of detonators for shot
- No need to calculate cable section, every diameter will work fine
- No limit on cable length, just wait some more seconds to load detonators for exceptional lengths
- It's ok if the cable get broken during detonations. The detonators will ignites autonomously applying their delays
- Detonators can only accept and store the firing current only when turned on and only from the remote location
- Firing current is automatically discharged if detonator is turned off
- Detonator will turn off automatically after two hours (or programmable) waiting for fire signal. Stored fire current is discharged
- Logic filter, 3-8 seconds, over the fire request from remote location
- No need to calculate or measure any electric resistance.
- Precise fire delay applied by microcontroller on board
- Every detonator has a unique serial number (or programmable) provided in the microcontroller
- Autodiagnostic over the link with from the detonator with the remote location, a led indicate the correct connection. Useful in poor light conditions. No additional test instruments required
- The detonator will accept a fire request signal only after 10 minutes (or programmable) since turned on

- A magnet turns on the electronic of the detonator on package removal.

A detailed view of the magnet function. Please click on the image

- Several months of stand alive waiting for a fire signal (must disable timeout). The microcontroller ibernate itself automatically after power on

this is the booster for which the detonator is designed

The blaster has also been developed

please note the extreme shielding of the blaster (obviously grounded to negative pole). Since the blaster can also be used to directly detonate standards electric detonators, the shield avoid emitting high electromagnetic spikes.

easy weight lithium batteries

Yes, I used an Arduino Mega in the blaster suitcase. The blaster is not a mission critical apparatus, Arduino works just fine there.

An overview of the connectors available:

An inside of the connector while developing a prototipe...

An overview of the products developed

This is the detonator in SMD medium size, assembled just for fun.

[Edited on 22-3-2015 by aldofad]

markx - 22-3-2015 at 02:00

Excellent work on the electronics! But this has to be the most unorthodox setting for testing energetics that I've ever seen so far

Is this a mansion's park or something similar in your video?

aldofad - 22-3-2015 at 04:12

Quote: Originally posted by markx

Is this a mansion's park or something similar in your video?

Yes, its the mansion were my family produce wine

a wine with an explosive taste

[Edited on 22-3-2015 by aldofad]

Bert - 22-3-2015 at 06:00

I certainly wouldn't want to be a gopher living in your lawn!

Nice hardware...