Sciencemadness Discussion Board

NO2 from lead chamber process

Zyklon-A - 10-12-2013 at 22:45

A while ago, I tried the Lead Chamber Process, it worked well, but I wanted the H2SO4 to make nitric acid.
Could I get the NO2 from the reaction chamber and bypass the making sulfuric acid part? It would save a lot of time (boiling the acid to decent%,
Using more KNO3, heating, ect.)
Maybe routing the gasses through something that reacts to form a solid(or liquid,) with SO2 but not NOx. I also thought about condensing it, (because it will be very easy.)
Does anyone have any ideas about it?

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 11-12-2013 at 00:29

I dont have many chemicals for the lead chamber process, however I do have Sodium pyrosulfate and Copper(II) sulfate which decomposes at 400 and 650 degree to give SO3 gas, I'm wanting to condense the SO3 below its melting point, around -5 degrees.

I know making H2SO4 from SO3/H2O is too exothermic and dangerous, can I add ice to cold SO3, in a -20 degree dry ice-acetone bath to allow them become sulfuric acid ?

[Edited on 11-12-2013 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]

violet sin - 11-12-2013 at 00:30

Zyklonb -
that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. also more info on your set up would be needed for any kind of assessment. traditionally the NOx(NO2) is a catalyst, and not subject to consumption. it was made from a nitrate salt and some sulfuric acid or heat. if you stop making sulfuric acid than why are you making HNO3 in a lead chamber? you would just have an amount of NO2 (and thus HNO3) dependent on the initial amount of nitrate salt used... like traditionally making nitric acid... which could be made in lab glass.

I am assuming you had to continually make the NOx because your device was too small of a volume to effectively recycle it.
or am I totally missing something here?

DubaiAmateurRocketry-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_trioxide
Thus heating a crystal of α-SO3 to its melting point results in a sudden increase in vapor pressure, which can be forceful enough to shatter a glass vessel in which it is heated. This effect is known as the "alpha explosion".[6]

it can be dangerous to solidify SO3 and then heat it.

[Edited on 11-12-2013 by violet sin]

[Edited on 11-12-2013 by violet sin]

Varmint - 11-12-2013 at 05:13

I think what you would be creating is a Lead Nitrate chamber.

Think about it.

DAS

Zyklon-A - 11-12-2013 at 07:06

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry  
I dont have many chemicals for the lead chamber process, however I do have Sodium pyrosulfate and Copper(II) sulfate which decomposes at 400 and 650 degree to give SO3 gas, I'm wanting to condense the SO3 below its melting point, around -5 degrees.

I know making H2SO4 from SO3/H2O is too exothermic and dangerous, can I add ice to cold SO3, in a -20 degree dry ice-acetone bath to allow them become sulfuric acid ?

[Edited on 11-12-2013 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]

You don't have KNO3 and sulfur?

Zyklon-A - 11-12-2013 at 08:26

Quote: Originally posted by violet sin  
Zyklonb -
that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. also more info on your set up would be needed for any kind of assessment. traditionally the NOx(NO2) is a catalyst, and not subject to consumption. it was made from a nitrate salt and some sulfuric acid or heat. if you stop making sulfuric acid than why are you making HNO3 in a lead chamber? you would just have an amount of NO2 (and thus HNO3) dependent on the initial amount of nitrate salt used... like traditionally making nitric acid... which could be made in lab glass.

I am assuming you had to continually make the NOx because your device was too small of a volume to effectively recycle it.
or am I totally missing something here?

DubaiAmateurRocketry-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_trioxide
Thus heating a crystal of α-SO3 to its melting point results in a sudden increase in vapor pressure, which can be forceful enough to shatter a glass vessel in which it is heated. This effect is known as the "alpha explosion".[6]

it can be dangerous to solidify SO3 and then heat it.

[Edited on 11-12-2013 by violet sin]

[Edited on 11-12-2013 by violet sin]

Yes the NOx is a catalyst in the actual lead chamber methed, but I wanted the H2SO4 just to make H2NO3, and I was hoping that I could use the NOx that is made, I have been trying for a while to make NOx, but it has been hard.:(
My current setup for H2SO4 is, a 5 gallon bucket and a 9 inch ladle hanging from the lid, put some water in the bucket, put 3 grams KNO3 in the bottom of the bucket and then pour about 10-15 grams of molten sulfur on top, light it, close the lid, and wait about 5-8 hours. Then, depending on how much water was put in there, you should have about 15-30% con. H2SO4, I then boil to 92%-97% con.
It works quite well but I was hoping that I could bypass all of the last part and separate the NOx.

Zyklon-A - 11-12-2013 at 08:44

Quote: Originally posted by Varmint  
I think what you would be creating is a Lead Nitrate chamber.

Think about it.

DAS

Lol, I use a plastic vessel though.

Zyklon-A - 11-12-2013 at 09:00

Quote: Originally posted by Zyklonb  
Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry  


I know making H2SO4 from SO3/H2O is too exothermic and dangerous, can I add ice to cold SO3, in a -20 degree dry ice-acetone bath to allow them become sulfuric acid ?

[Edited on 11-12-2013 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]

SO3 reacts more violently than you think, if you take SO3(l)
and put it in the air it will react so fast with the water in the air that it will almost explode as the heat turns it in to a gas, and it will form a thick cloud of gaseous oleum /con. sulfuric acid.
A reaction with ice will quickly turn ice, SO3, and H2SO4 into an acid fog, I'm quite sure.

bfesser - 11-12-2013 at 09:33

Zyklonb, please stop spamming replies and quotes. Before posting again, review The ScienceMadness Guidelines (link in my signature).

AJKOER - 3-1-2014 at 15:21


Now Zyklonb apparently has KNO3. Upon employing it in the following reaction:

3Cu + 2KNO3 + 4H2SO4 --> 3CuSO4 + 2NO↑ + K2SO4 + 4H2O

(which makes sense as the action of H2SO4 on KNO3 could form in-situ HNO3 which is further reduced by the Copper to NO gas).

No H2SO4? Perhaps substituting NaHSO4 may even work:

3Cu + 2KNO3 + 8 NaHSO4 --> 3CuSO4 + 2NO↑ + K2SO4 + 4H2O + 4 Na2SO4

In place of NaHSO4, one could more certainly use Oxalic acid. I would first react the KNO3 with H2C2O4 in aqueous form, and then add the Copper.

Mixing air with the NO forms the final targeted NO2:

2 NO + O2 --> 2 NO2

[EDIT] Interestingly, substituting Zn for Cu and employing an excess of KNO3, may be able to form NO2 with less than concentrated HNO3 (or, in this context, with a dilute acid and an excess of KNO3). See my discussion at: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=17676

[Edited on 4-1-2014 by AJKOER]

Zyklon-A - 3-1-2014 at 15:43

Well I've had KNO3 for a long time now (5 months), that's how I've been able to do the lead chamber process, I was hoping to be able to make it without copper.... I guess I can recycle the Cu with reduction of Al. I make my H2SO4 from the SO3 process anyway.

testimento - 4-1-2014 at 18:30

Just pyrolyse calcium, copper or magnesium nitrate.