[Edited on 1.11.13 by bfesser]Metacelsus - 1-11-2013 at 10:08
While I certainly believe that safety is important, I'm not sure it warrants a subforum of its own. Instead, we could have one stickied safety thread
that links to other safety-related threads, in a similar manner to bfesser's topical compendium.deltaH - 1-11-2013 at 10:12
My thoughts were that it's more than that, because putting things into a safety compendium is going to be the death of it... people DON't read safety
manuals, but they engage in threads and this may be a way to stimulate safety awareness.
I think it would be a good idea for people simple say, look, I want to do this using this, is there an obvious safety issue that I
am overlooking? What could I do better? etc.
These could be example of particular threads.
Also there are multiple sticky topics that could be put here. One could be particular accidents or common mistakes, others could be about safety gear,
etc etc.
I just think there is too much scope here and this topic is too important to ignore.
It deserves a section of its own.
[Edited on 1-11-2013 by deltaH]Pyro - 1-11-2013 at 10:19
good idea, I would engage in a discussion on that.bismuthate - 1-11-2013 at 11:38
I belive that we need a poll.
My only objection is that it hinders the natural selection of the k3wl species.
(just kidding...they wouldn't read it anywaybfesser - 1-11-2013 at 11:39
I must say that I've considered the idea of a Safety forum myself, in the past, and dismissed it as unnecessary. My first thought, upon
reconsideration, was already summarized by Cheddite Cheese, above. I actually included a section in my topical compendium for
safety, but don't recall if I put much effort into it. If you'd like, I can re-organize it, update it, and make it into a new sticky thread where
I'll update the top post with whatever suggestions people post as replies. I'm definitely not in favor of adding a slew of new stickies. People tend
to overlook them, and they just seem to clutter things.
[edit] Wow, I'm disappointed by my own effort on this:<a href="viewthread.php?tid=25000">
</a>Definitely could/should have done better... I'll
add it to the very top of my (long) list of things I can do to help.
[Edited on 1.11.13 by bfesser]deltaH - 1-11-2013 at 12:05
Voted yes obviously, I think if you don't make safety an interesting thing that people can constantly discuss topics about, people simply won't engage
with it. We need to start discussing all kinds of issues here, not just specific topics than can fit in a couple of sticky thread which hardly anybody
would touch, or only touch one in a while.
Safety needs to become built into our way of thinking and I think people would find it fun to start particular threads on a very wide variety of
topics here.
If my stupid mension of Vision glass cookware for reactions might have been a thread here for safety reasons for example.bfesser - 1-11-2013 at 12:10
Huh, so that's what happens when a poll topic is merged. Good to know. [edit] I abstain, but am watching the poll results.
[Edited on 1.11.13 by bfesser]Pyro - 1-11-2013 at 12:16
I voted yes, all the discussions would be together making it easy to find references.
there could be discussions on the best brands of PPE, best location for certain chems, best class fire ex., ...woelen - 1-11-2013 at 12:37
I voted "yes", but reluctantly. I think that the subject of safety really deserves its own place in a forum, so strongly geared towards home
chemistry, hence my vote. But I also recognize the problem of getting too many subforums. I have seen other forums with tons of subforums and that
really is a nuisance. I like the small number of subforums of sciencemadness.
If a subsection on safety is added, then I would add it in the fundamentals set, just below the miscellaneous subject.deltaH - 1-11-2013 at 13:03
Yes agreed woelen, I too like and appreciate the simplicity of the catagorisations, but I also feel this is really REALLY important.
Thanks for the merge bfesser, was going to PM you but you were lightning fast as usual.
Thanks all for voting and excellent response! Pyro - 1-11-2013 at 13:10
Woelen, I understand your sentiments. but if the safety was a subforum, people would be more positively geared to home chemistry.deltaH - 1-11-2013 at 13:21
Might even make some parents less chemophobic... maybe not.
Might help get the NSA off our backs... maybe not (waves to NSA agent reading this... hello)
@bismuthate, thanks for the awesome poll idea!!!!!!!!!!
@woelen
Quote:
If a subsection on safety is added, then I would add it in the fundamentals set, just below the miscellaneous subject.
What happened to safety first rule
[Edited on 1-11-2013 by deltaH]BromicAcid - 1-11-2013 at 13:56
I think a sticky would suffice. The reason is that safety is not something that exists in a vacuum. Inevitably it is linked to a chemical. When
those chemicals come up in discussion people on this forum will inevitably point out safety issues with dangerous compounds. Reading this information
inline is one the best ways to soak it in. When I think safety subsection all I forsee is doom and gloom. Nothing in that section is going to be
'safe'. This can kill you.... this causes cancer... it's like reading an MSDS where you know the material is safe but the person writing it went
overboard (eg Olive Oil having a health rating of 2 [harmful]).
All of the safety information for a compound can usually be found with ease. A simple sticky telling people how to interpret that information, what
kind of mindset they should use, is really what a person needs to cultivate to stay safe. Afterall, most of the experiments I performed when I was
younger was specifically because there was some degree of danger. I knew that danger existed but my mentality was that it was what made making
sodium, perchloric acid, hydrazine, phosgene, etc, fun and exciting to do. And that sort of change in thinking is not so easy to accomplish. WGTR - 1-11-2013 at 14:51
With topics that require extraordinary precautions, like shock-
sensitive energetics or dimethyl mercury for example, the topic
of safety may be better dealt with in the context of the thread
that is discussing it.
At the same time, there are a lot of basic safety practices, the
knowledge of which the more experienced among us take for
granted. For example, if you're transferring concentrated acid
from a container, you have to be prepared for the eventuality
that you're going to pour the whole bottle down the front of
yourself. I think that people don't naturally want to think that
way, but if you're prepared, you'll be wearing long sleeves,
appropriate gloves, a full-length rubber apron, goggles, a face
shield, and you'll be working next to an emergency eye
wash/shower. This is exactly what I do at work, every time.
It doesn't provide 100% protection, but it prevents
disfigurement of the important parts of you in the case
something happens. Probably everybody here works with
concentrated acids, so this type of information would be useful
in a place where everybody sees it--especially the beginners.
Just a thought.bfesser - 1-11-2013 at 14:55
"Just a thought," but did you learn on a typewriter, per chance? There's no need to hit return on a computer, the hammer won't strike the ribbon to
the roller off the edge of the paper...The_Davster - 1-11-2013 at 15:02
I voted no, with a reservation.
If a procedure is dangerous people generally discuss it in the thread where the synthesis or procedure requires it. Encouraging a unique safety
section may mean requisite warnings leave the appropriate thread, and an unsuspecting inexperienced user may only check the experiment thread and not
the safety section. In this way a safety forum may make the place *less* safe.
My reservation is for the simple things that experienced chemists would not mention, acid to water, glove selection, etc. In this case I can see the
use of a stickied "safety thread" where general questions related to safety can be asked, and links to safety warnings within the appropriate thread
are placed. However for it to turn into a "safety mega thread" or the like would only decrease the ability of the search engine to find the right
content.bismuthate - 1-11-2013 at 16:48
I would really like a safety subforum.
I think it would realy help me out.
Example: last week I spilled lead acetate on my desk. If we had a safety subforum I would have most likely known exactly what to do and I would have
been saved some worry.
P.S. I can't help but notice that some chose the "super k3wl" option...BromicAcid - 1-11-2013 at 16:56
Example: last week I spilled lead acetate on my desk. If we had a safety subforum I would have most likely known exactly what to do and I would have
been saved some worry.
Do you honestly think every chemical would be covered by that sub-forum?
Let's not pretend that such a forum would replace wikipedia anytime soon. Most of us known that people check that first and foremost and that also
has safety information.
Why would a safety subforum have told you something that you didn't find on your own in searching for information about your compound. Unless you are
a fan of spoon feeding.bismuthate - 1-11-2013 at 17:05
I do not believe that everything would be covered, yet I will hazard a guess that lead salts would be discussed to death. I did know and follow safety
procedures, however it would have been nice to have advice from those who have been in such a situation (this wiki fails to supply in most situations
along with most other sites).
[Edited on 2-11-2013 by bismuthate]The_Davster - 1-11-2013 at 17:06
Was there anything preventing the posting of a "shiiit, I just spilled lead acetate on my desk, what do I do" thread in another section?
The answer would have been treat the area with something that will render lead insoluble like a hydroxide or a sulfide, and then wash the area well.
P.S. I can't help but notice that some chose the "super k3wl" option...
One was me. I like to watch the world burn. bismuthate - 1-11-2013 at 17:13
HA. I like to watch the world blow up
I personaly used KI to clean up my spill it helps me not to miss a spot.
Back on topic I think this would help EM newbies.deltaH - 2-11-2013 at 03:09
Some thoughts that come to mind regarding the general comments people are writing about :
I think people are missing the point about the safety section. It's not there to take away specific things about a particular prep, I think it's good
practice to start all prep write-ups with a warning at the the top that specifically briefly names what the maid hazards of that prep are.
The safety section is more about safety in general and ideas people might have, I gave a stupid example, but for example one topic could be how glass
Vision cookware pots are fab for large preps involving acid because they are virtually indestructible etc.
Or another could be DIY fume hoods (I know already in other threads)
The point is that by having a safety thread specifically, people start writing about it, thinking about it and it helps to create a better
culture of safety. It shouldn't just be an aside in other topics or an aside in a post.
How often do amateurs here get injured or have serious accidents? I would guess VERY often. Most of you might brush that off, but I don't. It happens
because there isn't a culture of safety, nor is such a culture cultivated.
Remember culture is a thing that one takes on by your surroundings and peers, when you start discussing particular things extensively, it becomes
culture.
Anyway, I think it's irresponsible to not have such a section. That doesn't, however, mean that you should not also write at the top of a write up a
short warning section describing particular hazards of your prep. In fact in the safety section, we might have a sticky about the standard format this
should take and good practice guidelines for exactly such a thing. If the more regular posters start doing it out, people will pick up the pattern.
It will also stimulate people to write safety specific threads and get them thinking about it more often. That's the main thing with safety, is
getting it to become a constant lingering thought in everything you do. What are the hazards in what I'm about to do, what can go wrong, if it does go
wrong, what should I do, what can I do to decrease the hazard. Stupid things, like have in a bucket of ice water or a bucket of sand next to a prep in
case of run away, etc. I don't really want to go into it all here, just giving some rough examples, but as you can see, it's a topic people want to
write about and having it in one section will stimulate that even more.
[Edited on 2-11-2013 by deltaH]BromicAcid - 2-11-2013 at 06:53
Don't you dare involve a <b>Culture of Safety</b>
That's the reason we're not allowed to walk on the grass at work.
That's why they took away our knives.
That's why we're not allowed to touch a single piece of glass without cut resistant gloves.
If ever there was a phrase more adapt at leading to an actual 'slippery slope' rather than just paranoia at the thought it is that phrase.
One other concern though is that such a forum would be used for posting for "HElP, Brethed COCL2! Whut should I DOOO?!?"
The topic has come up a few times that perhaps we should not dispense any sort of medical advice as we could be potentially liable for the
consequences. I mean, we're not making brownies here and sometimes it does come down to needing medical advice and that subsection would be the
magnet for such things.
For example, when I was personally working with lead salts, I was drinking tons of milk and taking calcium supplements every day. That was on the
assumption that calcium is preferentially taken and stored by the body and that if I were to inhale some dust or get some lead compound on the my skin
and later somehow ingest it that my body would have less total uptake than it would have had without the gross excess of calcium. That was what I did
and that was my own logic working on behalf of myself but do I know it worked? It was speculation and I cannot make the claim that it worked to any
extent. Yet for someone posting about lead poisoning I would certainly type that as an answer.
But is that legal? Even with all the disclaimers? This is a global forum so I cannot speak for everyone. But in the USA I don't think giving
impromptu medical advice is protected under good Samaritan laws so much as rescuing someone from a burning building.Marvin - 2-11-2013 at 07:46
I'm kinda with Polverone on the Geology vote. There is either enough discussion to warrant a subforum for the threads or there isn't. It's not like
"If you build it they will come" though it could end up another "If you build it they will advertise kitchens".
I'm in favour of more safety information but I'm nonplussed as to what that might be. After the MSDS links. Then what?
For me where the safety information needs to be is alongside the preps. In an ideal world this might be something like,
...add droppwise 25grams of 20% Oleum(TOXIC CORROSIVE FUMEHOOD THICK-PVC-GLOVES)...elementcollector1 - 7-11-2013 at 13:10
For me where the safety information needs to be is alongside the preps. In an ideal world this might be something like,
...add droppwise 25grams of 20% Oleum(TOXIC CORROSIVE FUMEHOOD THICK-PVC-GLOVES)...
As much as I like the idea of posting each and every potential hazard in a prep thread, that particular example would quickly become annoying to
scroll through repeatedly. After all, all of the simple acids and bases would require warnings, a hot plate would require warning, etc....
My thought is that we should have a "Basics" section. Safety could be a big part of this, but so could things like how-to's on distillation,
recrystallization, solvent extraction, etc. Unfortunately, the caveat with this idea is the same as with the proposed Geology and Safety
subforums/topics: Either they'll be good, and attract a lot of attention, or they'll become a ghost town like Computational Models and Techniques.Magpie - 7-11-2013 at 15:25
I too think that the safety warnings ought to be in the preps themselves. Looking back at my Brewster organic lab manual (1960) there are usually
only 1-3 safety warnings in any given procedure, and all of them are succinct. Because of this they stand out and I always take them seriously.
Also I think it is silly to warn of being burned when using a hotplate or bunsen burner. Same for the use of commonly used strong acids and strong
bases in normal circumstances.
chemrox - 7-11-2013 at 17:17
I suggest the one safety consideration appropriate for any forum is the use of PGP.
(just kidding...they wouldn't read it anyway
