Sciencemadness Discussion Board

About toxicity of explosives

underground - 27-10-2013 at 13:18

OK explosives looks funny and interesting but how much really can we play with them ?

Our usually and common explosives that we are going to use are TATP, NG, NC, HMTD, ETN, AN, NM, hno3 and h2so4 for making them, and also some other people use/made much more of them... (RDX, PETN, AZIDES, e.t.c.)
So my question is if it is safe to play with them enough, or we are also playing with our lives (about the danger of toxicity) ?

[Edited on 27-10-2013 by underground]

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 27-10-2013 at 13:21

You can just google it..

Most of them are toxic, although touching it wont take your life, i heard some of them like TNT gives u extreme headache, which i would rather die hehe.

bismuthate - 27-10-2013 at 13:23

Well it just so happens that azides are highly toxic see the thread on toxic gas liberating explosives.

underground - 27-10-2013 at 13:26

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry  
You can just google it..

Most of them are toxic, although touching it wont take your life, i heard some of them like TNT gives u extreme headache, which i would rather die hehe.


Take a look of what i have found there...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/exp...


[Edited on 27-10-2013 by underground]

underground - 27-10-2013 at 13:29

Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate  
Well it just so happens that azides are highly toxic see the thread on toxic gas liberating explosives.


That is ok cause most of amateur are going to use HMTX/TATP but what about for the others ? (NG, NC, ETN, AN, NM, MHN e.t.c.)


"Ethylene glycol dinitrate and nitroglycerine are vasodilators and initial exposures result in headache, dizziness, nausea, or decreases in blood pressure"

"Angina pectoris has been reported among workers who were exposed to EGDN and/or NG. In those affected, the angina usually occurred in periods away from work. Sudden deaths without any apparent cause have also been reported among these workers. The deaths, like the angina, occurred more frequently during periods away from work. In most cases, the workers who died suddenly had no symptoms other than angina during periods away from work. The deaths are thought to be related to compensatory vasoconstriction (tolerance) induced by repeated exposure to the substances. Vasoconstriction is thought to lead to spasms of the coronary arteries and then the related angina pectoris and sudden deaths. "

Source: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/exp...

"headache, dizziness, nausea", the same symptoms also looks to have me also when sometimes i am going to prepare some ETN... even thew i am wearing gloves and a mask for breathing!!

[Edited on 27-10-2013 by underground]

The_Davster - 27-10-2013 at 13:54

Peroxides are radical initiators and likely carcinogens.

Nitramines have been shown in a few studies to be carcinogenic, but overall lower toxicity than say, TNT

If you make R-salt, keep in mind it is a N-nitrosamine, one of the most carcinogenic classes of substances.

Nitroaromatics have high toxicity and the potential for skin absorption.

Yeah, the nitrate esters are toxic, but they are also medically used so long term issues should be minimal.

I don't really need to state the toxicity of lead azide and mercury fulminate, do I?

hydrazine is carcinogenic so if you use it as precursor, make sure you have good ventilation.

[Edited on 27-10-13 by The_Davster]

underground - 27-10-2013 at 14:10

I really do not use any hydrazine , R-salt, or lead azide and mercury fulminate, but i use HMTD, AN, NM, ETN, UN, HCL, H2SO4, HNO3. hexamine, organic solvents, H2O2, and all of these looks toxic, so for that reason, and because i do not want to play with my life, i am seriously thinking to collect all of them into a big bucket of water and rout out all of the really away from me, and i am not planning to work again with explosives... Even thew they are interesting, beautiful, and amazing, unfortunately they are really toxic, and even thew you are very careful about accidentally detonation, wearing gloves, mask e.t.c. you may can not protect completely yourself from the toxicity of those materials...

[Edited on 27-10-2013 by underground]

golfpro - 27-10-2013 at 14:40

What????? Just don't eat ETN and you'll be OK. Even if you do eat a little bit, you will just get a headache. I wanted to see if it tasted at all sweet like Eryrhtol and it wasn't, just kind of bitter, I got a bad headache an hour later.

I'll wear a respirator though next time I handle HNO3 even outside.

underground - 27-10-2013 at 15:16

I also had some headaches and i do not think so that they are good enough... Did you read the link were i post it ?

[Edited on 27-10-2013 by underground]

bismuthate - 27-10-2013 at 15:19

Why would you taste ETN? Also with most explosives toxicity is the least of your worries.

The_Davster - 27-10-2013 at 17:08

Eh, why would you not? it has been used medically so at small doses it is safe. I tasted nitroglycerine once. Very very sweet. very, very bad headache.

Toxicity IS important to consider with anything you do, an insensitive secondary like TNT is essentially another chemical in terms of small lab scale handling due to low sensitivity, but you do NOT want to get it in your system. Same with a plastic composition with MNT.

I tend to worry more about carcinogenicity and long term toxicity than short term, acute toxicity, so I do not deal with lead or mercury salts, N-nitroso species, and only use hydrazine because I have to at work. Something like nitric acid, yeah it is toxic but it is not cumulative, so as long as you take care to avoid burns and inhalation, long term minor exposure is nothing to worry about. This is not the same with say, lead salts.

But underground, if you do not understand the basics of toxicology, perhaps that would be wise to research a bit before pursuing interests further?

underground - 27-10-2013 at 21:52

I am talking about the long term toxicity, if you are going to work with explosives for a long time, you are also going to have a long term toxicity... I guess indeed small amount of that are not going to harm you, but what about when you are continuously working with them, maybe you are going to have a cancer at the future, will you take that risk ?


[Edited on 28-10-2013 by underground]

woelen - 28-10-2013 at 00:26

Two very important conclusions from 2012:

Acid mists are class I carcinogens (e.g. fumes from HCl, mists of H2SO4, HNO3, H3PO4, which may occur in certain processes, such as bubbling of acidic solutions). Class I is the most severe class, which means "certainly carcinogenic".

http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monographs/vol100F/mono100F-33...

Ethanol is a class I carcinogen (yes, not only when used as solvent or for cleaning, but also when consumed in beer, wine, etc.).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_and_cancer

Both types of chemicals are encountered frequently, not only in energetics, but in general chemistry as well. Something to be careful about. How many times do you get exposed to e.g. mists of HCl?

Keep in mind though, that a class I carcinogen does not mean instant death in a bottle. Class I means that it is certain that a compound increases the risk of cancer, but it does not tell how much the risk is increased.

underground - 28-10-2013 at 00:47

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
Two very important conclusions from 2012:

Acid mists are class I carcinogens (e.g. fumes from HCl, mists of H2SO4, HNO3, H3PO4, which may occur in certain processes, such as bubbling of acidic solutions). Class I is the most severe class, which means "certainly carcinogenic".

http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monographs/vol100F/mono100F-33...

Ethanol is a class I carcinogen (yes, not only when used as solvent or for cleaning, but also when consumed in beer, wine, etc.).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_and_cancer

Both types of chemicals are encountered frequently, not only in energetics, but in general chemistry as well. Something to be careful about. How many times do you get exposed to e.g. mists of HCl?

Keep in mind though, that a class I carcinogen does not mean instant death in a bottle. Class I means that it is certain that a compound increases the risk of cancer, but it does not tell how much the risk is increased.


Perfect!! that i want to tell to everybody here, i have already stop making explosives cause of toxic materials needed to made them, and they are toxic themselves too.
The risk it looks to be very big, and in my opinion, better do not play with our lives..

I have also a very good example and i am going to share to everybody here,.
Here in my place, a man's job was to sailing acids for batteries, (30% h2s04), he died from cancer...:(

[Edited on 28-10-2013 by underground]

woelen - 28-10-2013 at 02:05

I think that your conclusion is too strong. Every act of our life introduces a certain risk. Each time you drink a beer, you increase the risk on cancer somewhat, the same is true when you fill the tank of your car.

Each time you inhale a waft of HCl-fumes or inhale tiny droplets from a bubbling solution containing H2SO4, there is a (slight) increase of risk of cancer. On the other hand, if you want to reduce the risk to zero, then you don't have a life at all. We simply do not live forever, our bodies wear out and one important cause of wearing out is chemical wear. Each time we eat, we drink, we breathe, our body is broken down a little and the risk of cancer increases somewhat. It is only so that some things introduce more risk than others (some other carcinogens: grilled meat, especially if it has some hard dark pieces, fried food, due to formation of acrolein in the baking process).

So, for me this means that I continue my hobby of home chemistry, but I just try to be even more careful not to inhale anything. But I know that I cannot avoid that completely, and I take that small risk.

vulture - 28-10-2013 at 02:38

There is only one thing which has a 100% fatality rate: being born.

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 28-10-2013 at 04:52

What about Tetrazoles ? even though it have nitrogen bonded together like Azides, does the ring prevent or reduce its toxicity any how ?

[Edited on 28-10-2013 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]

Ral123 - 28-10-2013 at 05:38

Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
Two very important conclusions from 2012:

Acid mists are class I carcinogens (e.g. fumes from HCl, mists of H2SO4, HNO3, H3PO4, which may occur in certain processes, such as bubbling of acidic solutions). Class I is the most severe class, which means "certainly carcinogenic".

http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monographs/vol100F/mono100F-33...

Ethanol is a class I carcinogen (yes, not only when used as solvent or for cleaning, but also when consumed in beer, wine, etc.).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_and_cancer

Both types of chemicals are encountered frequently, not only in energetics, but in general chemistry as well. Something to be careful about. How many times do you get exposed to e.g. mists of HCl?

Keep in mind though, that a class I carcinogen does not mean instant death in a bottle. Class I means that it is certain that a compound increases the risk of cancer, but it does not tell how much the risk is increased.


Perfect!! that i want to tell to everybody here, i have already stop making explosives cause of toxic materials needed to made them, and they are toxic themselves too.
The risk it looks to be very big, and in my opinion, better do not play with our lives..

I have also a very good example and i am going to share to everybody here,.
Here in my place, a man's job was to sailing acids for batteries, (30% h2s04), he died from cancer...:(

[Edited on 28-10-2013 by underground]

A very wise decision underground, you should know the value of life and keep safe from unnecessary risks like ending up in hospital, jail or being blown up. I'm sure you have the most basic anti-explosive synthesis safety deep within you-laziness. It has saved me literally a lot of headaches.

Fenir - 28-10-2013 at 15:59

I once heard an annecdote about how in vietnam soldiers would consume plastic explosive to avoid a dangerous mission. They would be sick enough to avoid court martials.

Varmint - 29-10-2013 at 08:51

When an onion is sliced, aerosols are released which when in contact with water from the eyes (mucous membranes, lung fluids, etc) form Sulfuric Acid.

So, if sulfuric acid is a cat 1 carcinogen, then there ought to be ample evidence amongst the millions of chefs around the world.

Di-Hydrogen Monoxide is purported to lead to near instant death when aspirated in sufficient quantity.

Be careful out there, everything you enjoy, including life itself, can and will kill you.

DAS

Bot0nist - 29-10-2013 at 09:13

Varmit, that is actually an easily accepted myth...
The real culprit is syn-propanethial-S-oxide. I do get the point you were making though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onion#Eye_irritation

[Edited on 29-10-2013 by Bot0nist]

Fantasma4500 - 29-10-2013 at 10:21

do i really need to start yelling for a COMPLETE dihydrogen monoxide ban?!
ive been there.. its dangerous stuff, its like people dont realise how dangerous this thing is..

anyhow.. a road is more dangerous than a laboratory, considering that you know what you are doing with just decent thought, let alone you dont mess with toxic organics which often tends to have an extreme toxicity

and yet again, be very very careful with dihydrogen monoxide, i cannot say it enough, very surely you have been in contact with this often

also another thing, the H2SO4 batteries (30%?) would not fume H2SO4.. perhaps we can talk about some of the particles getting knocked into the air inside the containers and escaping in something i would consider irrelevant amounts, i always forget the word for airbourne solid particles..

underground - 30-10-2013 at 01:38

Explosives are really amazing and interesting!!! I have been amazed with ETN as it is very easy to make with good yields and with a very common materials and really cheap
But the fact that it is toxic, really makes me nervous and this is the reason i abandoned them. I almost had everyday a headache, but i said OK..., but when i do a little search and i read this, ( http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/exp... ) and i saw that i also had the same symptoms with those workers (headache, dizziness, nausea, or decreases in blood pressure) were after they suddenly starts to die, then i decide to stop making them.
Maybe in the future i will start again, but of course i will take as protection as possible i can

woelen - 30-10-2013 at 04:09

The problem only occurs on daily exposure. If you are exposed a few times over a period of months or even years, then there is no real issue. For most amateurs the latter exposure profile is more realistic, I can hardly imagine that an amateur is exposed to the same chemical day after day for a period of months or years. If I look at myself, then I perform experiments of a certain kind one or two times, and then the experiment is done and documented. I also keep away the chemicals from where I live, so in normal daytime and also when sleeping, I have no exposure to the chemicals.