Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Hafnium - Plasma Torch Electrode

Hafnium - Plasma Torch Electrode

elementcollector1 - 11-10-2013 at 15:51

Recently got a package of 2 hafnium plasma torch electrodes off of Amazon. Any fun experiments to do with it?

PeeWee2000 - 11-10-2013 at 16:39

You could shoot some xrays at them and see if it gets your geiger counter ticking

!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafnium_controversy

elementcollector1 - 11-10-2013 at 19:38

Hmm. Everyone on the Internet says hafnium is highly malleable (zirconium was malleable in my experience too), so I'm going to see if I can make a hafnium "plate" of sorts. As it is, the 3/8" diameter electrode doesn't fit in my 1/4" diameter ampoule opening...

blogfast25 - 12-10-2013 at 05:51

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1

Hmm. Everyone on the Internet says hafnium is highly malleable (zirconium was malleable in my experience too), so I'm going to see if I can make a hafnium "plate" of sorts. As it is, the 3/8" diameter electrode doesn't fit in my 1/4" diameter ampoule opening...

Malleability will in all likelihood depend on purity, as small amounts of alloying metals can increase hardness. A harder alloy may also be malleable but requiring higher pressures. In these metals, presence of oxygen leads to loss of ductility.

Hafnium is the 'sister element' to Zirconium and chemically almost indistinguishable from it.

Zirconium is said to dissolve in HCl and H2SO4, so it would be worth testing that with hafnium, at the hobbyist level. With strong HCl (probably refluxed over a considerable time) you'd get hafnyl chloride (HfOCl2.8H2O) which can be crystallised. From hafnyl chloride solutions, with ammonia Hf(OH)4 precipitates, which is fairly soluble in acids and also in NH4HF2, forming (NH4)2HfF6 (ammonium hexafluorohafnate). Historically, M2(Zr,Hf)F6 salts were the basis for the first separations between Hf and Zr.

Good buy!

[Edited on 12-10-2013 by blogfast25]

elementcollector1 - 12-10-2013 at 12:58

Hmm. Seems to be somewhat malleable, as it deforms when hit with a hammer. However, upon smashing this sucker into chunks small enough to fit in an ampoule, I discovered a coppery color - this doesn't look like the oxide! I think my torch electrode might just be hafnium-plated copper, or some such mixture...
If hafnium dissolves in HCl (and assuming HfOCl₂ isn't an oxidiser), I could separate the two by dissolving the hafnium out and precipitating the metal.

blogfast25 - 12-10-2013 at 14:03

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1

Hmm. I discovered a coppery color - this doesn't look like the oxide! I think my torch electrode might just be hafnium-plated copper, or some such mixture...

What you observe may be a form of iridescence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridescence

Super-fine layers of oxide on freshly exposed areas can cause this phenomenon.

Hafnium has a much higher density than copper: 13.31 v. 8.96, so a bulk density estimate should tell a lot...

elementcollector1 - 14-10-2013 at 16:07

Iridescence in my experience forms all colors of the rainbow - this was just straight copper-colored everywhere.
From a very rudimentary measure, the density was around 3-4 g/mL - nowhere near hafnium or copper. Course, the measurement could very easily have been off...
I still have a torch electrode that is unblemished, I'll try dissolving it and the pieces that were to go in the ampoule in HCl. Even if I can't get a solid lump of hafnium, I can shoot for powder if the impurity is copper.

blogfast25 - 15-10-2013 at 04:56

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1

Iridescence in my experience forms all colors of the rainbow - this was just straight copper-colored everywhere.
From a very rudimentary measure, the density was around 3-4 g/mL - nowhere near hafnium or copper. Course, the measurement could very easily have been off...
I still have a torch electrode that is unblemished, I'll try dissolving it and the pieces that were to go in the ampoule in HCl. Even if I can't get a solid lump of hafnium, I can shoot for powder if the impurity is copper.

Hmmm... Hf will show some reactivity towards HCl, I think.

Density 3 - 4? Have you been sold a lemon, by any chance?

elementcollector1 - 15-10-2013 at 05:19

If it is a lemon, it's the single most cleverly disguised lemon I've ever seen.

blogfast25 - 15-10-2013 at 12:03

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1

If it is a lemon, it's the single most cleverly disguised lemon I've ever seen.

Possibly but you need to revisit that bulk density measurement. 3 - 4 is less than iron!

elementcollector1 - 29-10-2013 at 13:48

So, I put the second torch electrode (untouched, brand new) in a test tube, and filled it with a non-stoichiometric mixture of (read: dumped in some) H₂SO₄ and H₂O₂, at 93% and 3% by mass respectively. After about 2 weeks, there is no change - if anything, it seems shinier than before! Wiki states that hafnium 'is resistant to acids (and bases)', and forms a protective oxide layer - but surely even a layer of hafnium dioxide couldn't last this long. If that coppery coating (which is still very present, and in fact has taken over most of the surface of the roughed hafnium) is really an iridescent oxide, then I should see some sort of color change. Failing that... I wouldn't know what to do.

blogfast25 - 30-10-2013 at 03:29

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1

So, I put the second torch electrode (untouched, brand new) in a test tube, and filled it with a non-stoichiometric mixture of (read: dumped in some) H₂SO₄ and H₂O₂, at 93% and 3% by mass respectively. After about 2 weeks, there is no change - if anything, it seems shinier than before! Wiki states that hafnium 'is resistant to acids (and bases)', and forms a protective oxide layer - but surely even a layer of hafnium dioxide couldn't last this long. If that coppery coating (which is still very present, and in fact has taken over most of the surface of the roughed hafnium) is really an iridescent oxide, then I should see some sort of color change. Failing that... I wouldn't know what to do.

For Zirconium/Hafnium a mixture of HNO3/HF acid is recommended. A recipe for a Darwin Award, if you're not equipped

.

But it would be worth trying 35 % HNO3 with some 1 M NaF solution added, on a really small scale, well outside. Zr/Hf like fluorides because they form very stable (Zr,Hf)F₆^2- complex ions with it.

(Hf,Zr)O₂ (hafnia or zirconia) is extremely acid insoluble (think TiO2 but much worse). They can be dissolved in strong (or anhydrous) HF or quite easily by alkali fusion (then hafnates/zirconates are formed).

[Edited on 30-10-2013 by blogfast25]

deltaH - 30-10-2013 at 04:04

While I agree with blogfast25 that fluorides ought to do the trick, I am also wary of the route and not so sure if the nitric acid will do the oxidation you need at decent rates.

I would suggest electrolysing your rod using it as the anode and doing it in NH4F + 2HF (WARNING Ridiculously toxic!) containing solution using high voltage (12V) if you want to prepare hafnium fluoride salts. That is virtually guaranteed to dissolve it away.

The problem is you will now make (NH4)2HfF6, great, now what? The stuff is freakin stable and useless for converting to other hafnium compounds no?

Ideally you want to make HfCl4 so that you can readily convert it into other hafnium compounds, but the problem is that it behaves a bit like TiCl4, it cannot be allowed to see anything vaguely resembling water or an alcohol etc.

So here's a crazy idea (but safer than working with HF), get a hold of a lipophilic quaternary ammonium chloride salt. In South Africa, you can buy bottles of fairly concentrated didecyldimethylammonium chloride solution as a pool biocide/algaecide... this should work. Get rid of the water and then prepare a solution of it in an inert solvent, e.g. hexane (hopefully enough dissolves otherwise use a more polar a protic solvent but make sure its inert as hell), and then bubble lots of dry HCl through it.

Now electrolyse at 12V using your hafnium as the anode and a carbon cathode. You should form HfCl4 at the anode as a white solid over your rod and lots of chlorine gas as well and H2 at the cathode.

Beware that some chlorine will dissolve in your solvent (would probably stink!) and that your solvent might also chlorinate gradually, though probably slowly.

You might also need to refill your solution with HCl gas if there isn't enough of it there. I would think that most of it would be wasted by forming Cl2 at the anode and only a small amount would actually be used for forming HfCl4?

I am unsure if your HfCl4 would dissolve in your solvent, TiCl4 certainly does in many organic solvents... but then it's a liquid. HfCl4 has a m.p of 432C, so very little should dissolve in things like hexane. However, in ethers, you may be able to form soluble adducts just like you can with TiCl4, things like HfCl4(THF)2 for example. In fact, this is probably what you would use as solvent to do other reactions with your HfCl4 later on.

[Edited on 30-10-2013 by deltaH]

blogfast25 - 30-10-2013 at 08:01

Quote: Originally posted by deltaH

While I agree with blogfast25 that fluorides ought to do the trick, I am also wary of the route and not so sure if the nitric acid will do the oxidation you need at decent rates.

I would suggest electrolysing your rod using it as the anode and doing it in NH4F + 2HF (WARNING Ridiculously toxic!) containing solution using high voltage (12V) if you want to prepare hafnium fluoride salts. That is virtually guaranteed to dissolve it away.

The problem is you will now make (NH4)2HfF6, great, now what? The stuff is freakin stable and useless for converting to other hafnium compounds no?

The nitric/HF route is commercially used for dissolving Zr nuclear cladding (or at least was?)

(NH4)2HfF6 is converted to HfF4 by anaerobic or vacuum pyrolysis. I plan to use ZrF4 for reduction with Mg. I've already got some (NH4)2ZrF6 but it's one of those on/off long term projects.

I don't think EC1 really wants to make any Hf compounds, I think just wants to prove the stuff is Hf.

Wizzard - 30-10-2013 at 08:35

FYI zirconia is dissolvable in very hot, concentrated H2SO4. Sparingly so, but it's do-able.

deltaH - 30-10-2013 at 08:43

Quote:

I don't think EC1 really wants to make any Hf compounds, I think just wants to prove the stuff is Hf.

Ah, okay then, point taken

elementcollector1 - 30-10-2013 at 09:07

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

I don't think EC1 really wants to make any Hf compounds, I think just wants to prove the stuff is Hf.

Very true, although so far it checks out if the only thing that can dissolve it is HF/HNO₃.

I think some density measurements are in order again, this time with a much more accurate estimation of volume. I refuse to believe that this is a citric fruit disguised as a torch electrode.

[Edited on 10-30-2013 by elementcollector1]

blogfast25 - 30-10-2013 at 13:20

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1

I think some density measurements are in order again, this time with a much more accurate estimation of volume. I refuse to believe that this is a citric fruit disguised as a torch electrode.

[Edited on 10-30-2013 by elementcollector1]

Use Archimedes:

http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/measurement/faq...

violet sin - 30-10-2013 at 22:56

I'm trying to find the papers I was looking at, but I came across some that said a pure hafnium electrode is used. some newer ones just had an insert at the tip also. but after reading this thread I immediately started searching ebay( I didn't know about this before thanks). I asked one ebay seller(cztools), and he said that the hafnium tips they offered were not pure

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=26130...
..."Sorry we can not tell you exactaly what compand in the hafuim. Only can let you konw it is not purely hafnium. only tiny key woking part is made hafnium. It not collection. only for plasma cutting torch.
- cztools "...

given the nature of foreign sellers on ebay, I have got everything from the honest truth to an out-right lie when inquiring the specifics on items. at least this seller was honest instead of just going for the sale. so one may have to do the home work to avoid getting a generic/impure version. but it seems if you find the right one it will be at least relatively pure.

http://www.messer-cw.co.uk/Products/Consumables/Hypertherm-O...
..."CoolCore™ electrode technology replaces the conventional solid hafnium electrode element in high-current oxygen applications with a hafnium insert that is cored out, permitting heat-extracting copper to be in contact with its inside and outside diameter. Dramatically improved heat transfer from the hafnium results in a significant increase in electrode life."...

but so far in my search, it seems they are largely selling the insert version nowadays. though I'll keep looking as I don't have hafnium in my collection yet. hope to see how your density measurement went soon.

-Violet Sin-

blogfast25 - 31-10-2013 at 04:41

Interesting, Violet Sin, makes sense too...

Bezaleel - 31-10-2013 at 06:01

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Use Archimedes:

http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/measurement/faq...

Quote: Originally posted by http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/measurement/faq...

The density of the bolt must be 8 g / 2 mL or 4 g/mL.

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1

Iridescence in my experience forms all colors of the rainbow - this was just straight copper-colored everywhere.
From a very rudimentary measure, the density was around 3-4 g/mL - nowhere near hafnium or copper. Course, the measurement could very easily have been off...
I still have a torch electrode that is unblemished, I'll try dissolving it and the pieces that were to go in the ampoule in HCl. Even if I can't get a solid lump of hafnium, I can shoot for powder if the impurity is copper.

I think EC1 already used that site...

Bezaleel - 31-10-2013 at 06:09

[offtopic]

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

(NH4)2HfF6 is converted to HfF4 by anaerobic or vacuum pyrolysis. I plan to use ZrF4 for reduction with Mg. I've already got some (NH4)2ZrF6 but it's one of those on/off long term projects.

Did you prepare it out of Zr or out of ZrO2?

Quote: Originally posted by Wizzard

FYI zirconia is dissolvable in very hot, concentrated H2SO4. Sparingly so, but it's do-able.

Were you able to crystallise the sulfate from the solution? I have been trying to collect articles on this subject, but no ready-to-do procedure for getting ZrO2 into solution has yet come out of this. Apart from dissolving in HF, that is.
[/offtopic]

blogfast25 - 31-10-2013 at 11:51

Quote: Originally posted by Bezaleel

[offtopic]

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

(NH4)2HfF6 is converted to HfF4 by anaerobic or vacuum pyrolysis. I plan to use ZrF4 for reduction with Mg. I've already got some (NH4)2ZrF6 but it's one of those on/off long term projects.

Did you prepare it out of Zr or out of ZrO2?

Alkali (KOH) fusion of Zircon (ZrSiO4, flour, pottery opacifier), followed by hydrolysis and dissolution in strong HCl leaves behind silica and a solution of ZrOCl2 + KCl.

Precipitate Zr as Zr(OH)4 with strong NH3 and filter and wash. Use a Buchner to suck out most of the water.

Dissolve the fresh, moist Zr(OH)4 in saturated (about 50 %), hot NH4HF2. Filter and cool (ice). (NH4)2ZrF6 crystallises out. Too much NH4HF2 will also yield (NH4)3ZrF7.

Of course you could also dissolve the Zr(OH)4 is strong H2SO4. Zr(SO4)2 is hard to crystallise, from what I've read.

[Edited on 31-10-2013 by blogfast25]

elementcollector1 - 10-11-2013 at 12:43

Well, after at least 2 weeks in solution, neither the solution nor any of the hafnium in it (which now includes the iridescent pieces) have done anything. This rules out weaker metals such as iron or copper (there was H2O2 in the mix), leaving only the platinum group metals (given the weight, unlikely at best) and such metals as hafnium that are resistant to acids. On a side note, that means that these plasma torch electrodes might well find a use in electrolysis cells, but I'd have to test them with some electrolytic chlorine from a NaCl cell first.

As for density, I have not been able to make an accurate measurement yet.

watson.fawkes - 10-11-2013 at 13:34

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1

Recently got a package of 2 hafnium plasma torch electrodes off of Amazon.

I'm a little dumbfounded that no one else has asked you yet: Who's the manufacturer and what's the model number?

Here's a quotation from a Miller (a welding manufacturer) on consumables in plasma cutters:

Quote:

The second part is the electrode. It is located under and inside the tip. There is a rare piece of metal called Hafnium in the tip of the electrodes that breaks off every time the arc is started. When the Hafnium is depleted there will be a 1/16" deep, and round crater in the tip of the electrode. At this point it is time to change the electrode.

They're talking about their own products, obviously, but is there any indication that there might have been a hafnium insert brazed onto the end of the electrode you have?

IrC - 11-11-2013 at 01:09

If your purpose was obtaining Hafnium I am unsure why you chose the electrodes. Seems a tiny hard to separate quantity and if you are going to try chemical separation methods you have the other metal as impurities to deal with. A few years back I bought a 10.2 gm piece on fleabay for about 30 bucks including shipping. A couple offers right now are in the $1.50 to $3 /gm range depending upon what you wish to spend. Some turnings are also available although I do not think the deal is nearly as good.

Took this pic and re-sized it from the 148 gm link, this is similar to mine (but larger obviously), indicating what the pure metal should look like (in this form).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hafnium-Metal-99-9-148g-pure-metall-...

If too high for your budget this one is $32.45 shipped:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hafnium-Metal-Sponge-High-Purity-99-...

Sponge form, but if chemical reactions are your goal it seems this would be easier to work with than a large solid chunk. Maybe I am missing your original intent when choosing to buy the electrodes. I used to shop around for exotic elements from Hamric and Emovendo but it's been a few years so I don't know if either seller is still in business. Others are however, but you have to carefully shop as I see a wide range of per gm prices right now.

Since we know these fleabay links will expire I add for later readers of this post: Hafnium Metal 99,9% 148g pure $204.50 shipped; seller onyxmetall. Hafnium Metal, Sponge, High Purity, 99.9%, 10 grams $32.45 shipped, seller billythec. Both are good sellers whom I trust.

The pic for the sponge form:

If you are in the states buying from Poland is not a worry, the time is not that bad really, usually 10 to 12 days or less. In fact I have purchased from probably every country in the EU, from Russia, Ukraine, China, Turkey, etc. and the only country I avoid is England. No prejudice in my opinion here, merely personal experience. In several purchases from England 6 weeks is fast and no I cannot explain why. It just is, every single time. Maybe one of the European members can explain that one all I can say is it just is.

Sorry I have nothing useful to add pertaining to your question in this thread, sitting here looking at my chunk wondering the same thing. For 9 years now. That link about the Hafnium controversy and Stimulated emission has me interested however. Since the 80's I have been trying to build a gamma ray laser in vain.

I spent a lot of money on N50 magnets hoping the free electron gamma laser was possible for the lone experimenter. You just cannot get strong enough magnets close enough together to achieve these frequencies. If you think about it high fields means larger magnets (even with N50), meaning close spacing not so easy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-electron_laser

Given the close spacing and high fields needed in the Undulator using materials obtainable by the non billionaire, one also needs extreme velocity compensating for spacing to reach gamma frequencies. It would take someone a lot smarter than me to do it on my budget. What percentage of natural Hf is the 178m2Hf isomer? I missed it or it was not explained in the link PeeWee2000 posted above. In any case finally I have something new to experiment with in my collection of elements. Hf, Ta and Ho I have and are all mentioned concerning this subject on the nuclear isomer page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_isomer

LanthanumK - 11-11-2013 at 05:22

The plasma cutter electrode I got from a welding shop had a plated copper exterior with a tiny rod of hafnium in the center of the tip. I did not see any electrodes that were made entirely of pure hafnium.

elementcollector1 - 11-11-2013 at 20:34

Quote: Originally posted by LanthanumK

The plasma cutter electrode I got from a welding shop had a plated copper exterior with a tiny rod of hafnium in the center of the tip. I did not see any electrodes that were made entirely of pure hafnium.

Mine was composed of a copper cone-shaped exterior, and separate from this was a sort of cylindrical, silvery interior. It appears to be meant to be placed inside the copper part and attached to the torch.

violet sin - 11-11-2013 at 22:40

Ya that's the trend I saw when looking around. In my links on the first page in this thread, I had an excerp from one of the manufactures saying that their tip insert version were better than the solid versions. But it clearly said that there were solid hafnium electrodes, at least at one time. I still haven't been able to find any that were solid now. But the cheap Chinese versions on eBay don't look like inserts. At least most were one piece of metal. I did see one seller that had what looked like pressed tips. Ie. a small pellet crimped to stainless seteel case.

The smaller portion has a crimp in the photo. But other brands from eBay the smaller inside electrode looked to be one piece. Maybe crimped also, can't see the images too well on the iTouch. But regardless known technology is solid hafnium, water cooled copper with hafnium inserts and some incorporating silver as part of the tip. Just have to nail down which brands and at what times the electrodes were solid hafnium. A welding instructor at a college may be the perfect person to ask. They are constantly updated on current technology to keep the students on track. Perhaps on of you all who is attending such a college could ask. I have limited time these days, my kid is coming in less than two months now. Still gotta finish painting the baby room

elementcollector1 - 11-11-2013 at 23:15

The ones on the bottom of the picture are exactly what I'm working with.
The brand was Hobart, but I don't know when it was released.

elementcollector1 - 12-11-2013 at 21:53

Update: I conducted a much more precise density measurement, and found the density to be approximately 8.5 g/mL. This does not concur with hafnium's density of 13.3 g/mL, but is close to copper's 9.0 g/mL. What's curious is that despite this, whatever metal I'm working with is perfectly immune to concentrated sulfuric acid and grocery store hydrogen peroxide, which is rather unlike copper.

EDIT: D'oh! Upon closer examination, there is a tiny rod inserted into the center of my other, unblemished electrode. I'm willing to bet that this is the actual hafnium - but how to get to it? This thing is tiny - about a millimeter and a half diameter, and perhaps 1/4" length. Maybe I could dissolve everything else? I'm still in the dark as to just what the silvery coating on the outside is - nickel? Chromium?

[Edited on 11-13-2013 by elementcollector1]

deltaH - 13-11-2013 at 01:29

I was thinking of Niobium and that lead me to the niobium containing alloy Inconel 718 and that lead me to think of a wide range of super corrosion and heat resistant alloys, many have an SG of a little over 8.

I get the sneaky suspicion that whatever will succeed at dissolving your cladding metal will also succeed at dissolving your hafnium core

[Edited on 13-11-2013 by deltaH]

watson.fawkes - 13-11-2013 at 06:41

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1

I'm willing to bet that this is the actual hafnium - but how to get to it? [...] Maybe I could dissolve everything else?

File off the coating and the copper core should dissolve readily. You don't need to take off it all; just enough to get fresh acid in and spent acid out. You could grind it off as well, if you can deal with the grinding dust (which is probably toxic in some way) and don't want to save the filings.

MrHomeScientist - 13-11-2013 at 07:00

Quote: Originally posted by IrC

In fact I have purchased from probably every country in the EU, from Russia, Ukraine, China, Turkey, etc. and the only country I avoid is England. No prejudice in my opinion here, merely personal experience. In several purchases from England 6 weeks is fast and no I cannot explain why. It just is, every single time. Maybe one of the European members can explain that one all I can say is it just is.

Funny that you should say that. I just ordered some elements from rgbco in England and they claimed it would be here in 7 business days. That was 1 month ago, and I still don't have my items.

To be fair, though, it looks like USPS's fault. When it arrived in the country it was stuck in New York for 8 days. Then, it went to the opposite end of my state (passing my city in the process), and then went BACK to New York. It's currently made its way back to Florida and is at least in the right end of the state, but still hasn't made it to me. I'm going to do everything in my power to avoid using USPS from now on.
One of their recent commercials was hilarious - "coming soon: delivery dates!" Oh, you mean that thing that every other postal carrier has been doing for decades?

IrC - 13-11-2013 at 10:13

I could see it if chemicals, at least logically they would have a worry there. However I have only ordered chemicals of any kind outside the states and even then seldom, for a reason (Iridium metal powder from Sweden at a great price - yes I was making IrC), it is almost always some electronic part such as IC's or small laser components. Things which should not cause concern at least in my opinion. Yes it is I believe always an extended stay at customs here. What I did not understand is why US customs was so worried about from whence we came yet IC's from China or a laser goggles from Turkey sails through. That is what makes it seem so odd to me. I always believed England was closest to us of anyone. Oh well I'm also stuck trying to understand why so much trouble getting Hf from another metal structure when it is 3 bucks/gm in a link I posted. 99.9% pure at that.

After thinking about my comment I should add to avoid misunderstanding I was not implying EC1 was better off logically to buy Hf pure. It occurs to me the reason he chose these electrodes was possibly the fun and/or learning experience of the separation itself. I can see that. Like a quest for a novel process.

[Edited on 11-13-2013 by IrC]

MrHomeScientist - 13-11-2013 at 13:10

Yeah that is very strange. My order was osmium and vanadium, both perfectly benign metals in the form they are in (arc-melted bead and crystals sealed in an ampoule). So certainly the package shouldn't be marked hazardous.

And I agree with your last bit: sure, I could just go buy everything I ever wanted online (chemicals, elements, etc.), but most of the fun is in creating or recovering these things yourself. That way when I pull an element off my shelf to show someone, there's a great backstory about how I wrested it from its compounds via clever application of chemistry, rather than "I bought it." That's my view, anyway.

blogfast25 - 14-11-2013 at 06:23

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist

That way when I pull an element off my shelf to show someone, there's a great backstory about how I wrested it from its compounds via clever application of chemistry, rather than "I bought it." That's my view, anyway.

Totally second that.