Sciencemadness Discussion Board

RDX subsitudes ?

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 29-9-2013 at 07:33

RDX is cheap, easy to make, but it is just a little bit too sensitive. So i would want good performance insensitive explosives.

so is there any potential explosives which is also cheap to make, however less sensitive, while giving a performance not too inferior or better than RDX ?

Dany - 29-9-2013 at 07:45

Well there are many option but one interesting explosive that is cheap with performance equal to CL-20 (@TMD) and sensitivity in the order of that of TNT is TKX-50.

see my old post for the synthesis of TKX-50 (this explosive is synthesized by Klapotke et al. in Germany)

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=25484&...

Dany.

[Edited on 29-9-2013 by Dany]

Pulverulescent - 29-9-2013 at 08:16

Quote:
RDX is cheap, easy to make, but it is just a little bit too sensitive.

You could try desensitising it with a little castor oil?

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 29-9-2013 at 08:18

Quote: Originally posted by Pulverulescent  
Quote:
RDX is cheap, easy to make, but it is just a little bit too sensitive.

You could try desensitising it with a little castor oil?


Yes, but i am looking for something that is already insensitive in the first place.

Thank you for your suggestion though.

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 29-9-2013 at 08:22

Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
Well there are many option but one interesting explosive that is cheap with performance equal to CL-20 (@TMD) and sensitivity in the order of that of TNT is TKX-50.

see my old post for the synthesis of TKX-50 (this explosive is synthesized bt Klapotke et al. in Germany)

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=25484&...

Dany.


In that paper you mentioned, i also found the intermediate compound to synthesis TKX50, containing two azide groups also interesting, but i can not figure out what the name is.

Also surprised that the tetrazole groups are stable.

this thing looks interesting, except that the carbon is not burned.

Do you have any other suggestions ?

[Edited on 29-9-2013 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]

Dany - 29-9-2013 at 09:37

4,10-Dinitro-4,10-diaza-2,6,8,12-tetraoxaisowurtzitane (TEX) is another low sensitivity high explosive having Dcj=8665 m/s and exceptionally high crystal density d=1.99 g/cm3 [1]. TEX has been synthesized by an old member in this forum (Axt). you will find the attach of his synthesis below together with the original synthesis of TEX published in 1991 (part 1 & 2) [2,3].

[1] Organic Chemistry of Explosives, Jai Prakash Agrawal & Robert Hodgson.

[2] Vayalakkavoor T. Ramakrishnan, Murugappa Vedachalam, Joseph H. Boyer, Dense compounds of C, H, N, and O atoms: Nitramine derivatives of diimino- and dioxodecahydro-1 h,5h-diimidazo-[4,5-b:4′,5′-e]pyrazine, Heteroat. Chem., 313-318, 2(2), 1991 (part I)

[3] Vayalakkavoor T. Ramakrishnan, Murugappa Vedachalam, Joseph H. Boyer, Dense compounds of C, H, N, and O atoms: II [1]. Nitramine and nitrosamine derivatives of 2-oxo- and 2-iminooctahydroimidazo-[4,5-d]imidazole, Heteroat. Chem., 669-673, 2(6), 1991 (part II)

Attachment: TEX by Axt.pdf (141kB)
This file has been downloaded 496 times

Attachment: Part I.pdf (518kB)
This file has been downloaded 455 times

Attachment: Part II.pdf (428kB)
This file has been downloaded 500 times

Dany.



[Edited on 29-9-2013 by Dany]

Dany - 29-9-2013 at 09:56

@ DubaiAmateurRocketry

the name of the compound containing two azide group is oxalohydroximoyl diazide. It's synthesis begin from oxalohydroximoyl dichloride and is described in [1].

[1] Tselinskii, I. V.; Mel'nikova, S. F.; Romanova, T. V., Synthesis and Reactivity of Carbohydroximoyl Azides: I. Aliphatic and Aromatic Carbohydroximoyl Azides and 5-Substituted 1-Hydroxytetrazoles Based Thereon, Zhurnal Organicheskoi Khimii, 430-436, 37, 2001.

Dany.

Attachment: Synthesis of oxalohydroximoyl diazide .pdf (68kB)
This file has been downloaded 780 times

Xfactor - 29-9-2013 at 10:21

Isn't RDX fairly expensive to make? I assumed that 98% nitric acid is not cheap or simple to get.

Dany - 29-9-2013 at 10:23

You may also be interested in NEST-1

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=25480&...

Dany.

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 29-9-2013 at 10:48

http://www.chemistryviews.org/details/ezine/2548181/New_High...

I also found this, if the R is subsituted by NO2 , ONO2 it is also looks very energetic. Or N3 again lol

Dany - 29-9-2013 at 10:54

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry  
http://www.chemistryviews.org/details/ezine/2548181/New_High...

I also found this, if the R is subsituted by NO2 , ONO2 it is also looks very energetic. Or N3 again lol


This is the original article. It is also interesting to make the 1,2,3 triazol-N-oxide derivatives in order to increase crystal density (with unknown consequence on thermal and shock sensitivity of the resultant compounds). You can notice that this compounds is similar to the structure of the well known high explosive benzotrifuroxan (BTF) except that BTF has cyclohexane ring instead of benzen ring in the new compound described in the paper.

Dany.

Attachment: Tris(triazolo)benzene and Its Derivatives.pdf (576kB)
This file has been downloaded 901 times



[Edited on 29-9-2013 by Dany]

golfpro - 29-9-2013 at 12:07

How is RDX cheap?


11 grams of Pure NO2 free nitric acid is needed for 1 gram of RDX.

Are you using a different method?

Microtek - 30-9-2013 at 04:28
Quote:

How is RDX cheap? 11 grams of Pure NO2 free nitric acid is needed for 1 gram of RDX.


Remember we are talking to someone who wants to produce kilogram amounts of dinitramide. He's working on another budget than the rest of us.

NEST-1 is by no stretch of the imagination insensitive, but how about NTO? Also, you could try some of the BDNENA salts from the other article Dany brought to our attention (I'm working on those).

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 30-9-2013 at 07:00

Quote: Originally posted by Microtek  

Quote:

How is RDX cheap? 11 grams of Pure NO2 free nitric acid is needed for 1 gram of RDX.


Remember we are talking to someone who wants to produce kilogram amounts of dinitramide. He's working on another budget than the rest of us.

NEST-1 is by no stretch of the imagination insensitive, but how about NTO? Also, you could try some of the BDNENA salts from the other article Dany brought to our attention (I'm working on those).


can i have a BDNENA link that you mentioned Dany posted ? Dany seems to know a lot in these topics.

thank you

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 30-9-2013 at 08:52

Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry  
http://www.chemistryviews.org/details/ezine/2548181/New_High...

I also found this, if the R is subsituted by NO2 , ONO2 it is also looks very energetic. Or N3 again lol


This is the original article. It is also interesting to make the 1,2,3 triazol-N-oxide derivatives in order to increase crystal density (with unknown consequence on thermal and shock sensitivity of the resultant compounds). You can notice that this compounds is similar to the structure of the well known high explosive benzotrifuroxan (BTF) except that BTF has cyclohexane ring instead of benzen ring in the new compound described in the paper.

Dany.


[Edited on 29-9-2013 by Dany]


http://www.cecd.umd.edu/documents/presentations/synthesis-wo...

When R is Cl, although none of the carbon is burned, the hof is already 3 times higher than CL-20

So The NO2, N(NO2), or C(NO2)3 cations subsituted might result in a really powerful explosive where i expect the latter ones to have a high vod, maybe around 10k