Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Making ammonia

rocketsurgeon - 23-6-2013 at 18:27

Last night I found a vase that had urea fertilizer in it for about a month. I wafted the odor towards me and it smelt like ammonia.

I was wondering if urea will decompose into ammonia.

plante1999 - 23-6-2013 at 18:33

Yes it will. The reaction is catalysed by urease, and happen to completion in basic environement.

By itself, urea can be conssidered as ammonium cyanate.

(NH2)2CO + H2O -) CO2 + 2NH3

Thank you

rocketsurgeon - 23-6-2013 at 18:37

Good to know.
I assume it is not pure enough to use in an experiment without purification.

plante1999 - 23-6-2013 at 18:40

It depend on the synthesis, but if it was already purified, it should be good, if not, then you need to purefy all fertilizers anyway.

agin thanks

rocketsurgeon - 23-6-2013 at 18:43

By.
I also like your website.

plante1999 - 23-6-2013 at 18:48

Your welcomed, and thanks!

Oopsy_daisy - 24-6-2013 at 06:59

I actually made some ammonia by mixing urea and sodium hydroxide in a minimal amount of water in a filtration flask and then leading the generated gas into ice-cold water.
By titration the concemtration was then determined to 2.5 M. A bit of a disappointment and the experiment was never revisited

RobertRobinson75 - 24-6-2013 at 19:22

Quote: Originally posted by rocketsurgeon  
By.
I also like your website.


This comment made me go and click on the website... I want to second this, I've been looking for some experiments to get started with again in chemistry. As I'm interested in biochem too I think I'll try the white lead procedure first. Great website! :)

Tdep - 25-6-2013 at 02:29

Quote: Originally posted by RobertRobinson75  
Quote: Originally posted by rocketsurgeon  
By.
I also like your website.


This comment made me go and click on the website... I want to second this, I've been looking for some experiments to get started with again in chemistry. As I'm interested in biochem too I think I'll try the white lead procedure first. Great website! :)


I third (?) this. Waiting for an expansion of the birkeland process, sounds great!
If one, say, had access to a tesla coil, would that provide enough voltage to get a resonable yield?
Making nitrates from a tesla coil seems insane.
Awesome, but insane.

testimento - 25-6-2013 at 03:06

I was thinking of making a small ostwald reactor with normal air compressor at 8bar attached to it. In the first pot there would be put urea and sodium hydroxide solution which is heated, and air is compressed at the side of it. This gas mixture would rise up to a catalyst obtained from a car and heated up to 900C with insulated resistance wire to cause the formation of NO, and this gas is lead into middle chamber where it reacts with air to form NO2 and then it is bubbled through water before exiting the valve.

Making nitric acid via birkeland is another bit, I was thinking of making an HV transformer at 20kV 150mA and having two steel bars for electrodes, a small air pump blowing air under the electrodes and similar construction with middle chamber and the water trap as for ostwald. This system wouldnt be need pressurized, although it could increase yields. The problem wirth birkey is that it eats electricity like a green politics, you could end up using more than 100 kilowatts a day easily just to produce few liters of nitric. the efficiency of the birkey is substantially increased with high power magnets inserted around the electrodes, that will cause the electric arc to spread into sphere and annihilate the nitrogen bonds much more vastly.

The haber process is a little more challenging mut i though that using an 200bar compressor for 600usd that would get the nitrogen from gas burner, catalyst to remove co, sodium hydroxide scrubber to remove co2 and soot and then dried with cacl and deoxygenated with heated iron and hydrogen would be generated with electrolytic cell in correct ratios controlled by production rates and valves and then lead through 4 pieces of stainless reactors filled with fe3o4 catalyst and heated up to 300-500c with nicrome or propane burner in an insulated space and between each pass the gas would go through cooler condenser to condense the produced ammonia. I calculated that one should be able to make at least 10-20 liters of ammonia in a day with ease by using apparatus that fits in 1x2m table and costs about 2000usd max. the parts must be made from high nickel steel(316 is best) because the hydrogen embrittlement will cause the reactors to blow up and shatter like a glass eventually if made from carbon steel.

as long as 1 can get urea for shit dirt price i prefer it for making ammonia and nitric. 1 can make 10 liters of nearly pure nitric in few hours by distilling urea+naoh generated ammonia with car catalyzer and cheap air comp.

plante1999 - 25-6-2013 at 04:56

Quote: Originally posted by testimento  

as long as 1 can get urea for shit dirt price i prefer it for making ammonia and nitric. 1 can make 10 liters of nearly pure nitric in few hours by distilling urea+naoh generated ammonia with car catalyzer and cheap air comp.


I doupt this, at least, it may make lots of diluted nitric acid, but not 10L of 99-100% nitric acid.

"If one, say, had access to a tesla coil, would that provide enough voltage to get a resonable yield? "

Birkelend process is very low yielding and extremly energy intensive. If I where to invest a small amount in nitrate production, it would be in "nitrobacters" reactor. At least theses do not necessite highly specialised equipement and heavy investment.

"I think I'll try the white lead procedure first"

Good luck, and if you need help, you cna U2U me.

Thanks for all the comment!

Tdep - 25-6-2013 at 04:58

But it would be theoretically possible?
I hardly considered it would be efficient?

plante1999 - 25-6-2013 at 05:03

Quote: Originally posted by Tdep  
But it would be theoretically possible?
I hardly considered it would be efficient?


Yes, but generally, a "fat" arc (high amperage) is a lot more efficient than a tiny spark of very very low amperage.

Toi be honest, it would be more of a lab curiosity than anything very useful.

testimento - 25-6-2013 at 09:23

Urea and naoh will make sodium carbonate and ammonia as per 2x NH2 + CO + NaOH = NaCO3 + NH3 (not balanced). You get the principle. The naoh+urea solution will be heated with strong burner to make it as far as nearly boiling to get all ammonia out. And yes, the nitric will be dilute, up to 40-68% depending on the conditions, but you will concentrate it to 68% or use sulfuric to get 99%.

The problem with the birkeland is indeed the need for power. If you get 20kV arc, you would need to use 20kW of electricity to generate 1 amp arc which is about double the 3-phase power line (11kW) and 6 times the energy an ordinary 240V can give before fuses burn. Only economically viable way would be to use the thermal energy to heat your house if you live in northern areas, or use a 20kW diesel generator to generate the power. This kind of device will, of course, create a dozen or two liters of pure nitric acid in dilute form.

Random - 25-6-2013 at 10:20

Quote: Originally posted by plante1999  
Quote: Originally posted by testimento  

as long as 1 can get urea for shit dirt price i prefer it for making ammonia and nitric. 1 can make 10 liters of nearly pure nitric in few hours by distilling urea+naoh generated ammonia with car catalyzer and cheap air comp.


I doupt this, at least, it may make lots of diluted nitric acid, but not 10L of 99-100% nitric acid.

"If one, say, had access to a tesla coil, would that provide enough voltage to get a resonable yield? "

Birkelend process is very low yielding and extremly energy intensive. If I where to invest a small amount in nitrate production, it would be in "nitrobacters" reactor. At least theses do not necessite highly specialised equipement and heavy investment.

"I think I'll try the white lead procedure first"

Good luck, and if you need help, you cna U2U me.

Thanks for all the comment!


Did you try making nitrobacter reactor?