Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Scared to ask science teacher about doing chemistry in school lab

Cou - 29-5-2013 at 19:09

It seems that police don't like for people to do chemistry at home, since it should be done in a school lab under supervision, but it's hard to do that if the teachers will probably just use the "We're not giving this chemical to 14 year old, no way" line. Is it normal for kids to do their own experiments after school, or they only do assignments?

I wouldn't be as embarrassed if I wasn't persian caucasian; when people see a white european kid holding a flask, they think "Aw, look at that kid learning about chemicals, I bet he's gonna grow up smart" but if the kid was colored with the lightest brown tint in his skin, they would go "TERRORIST ALERT, I BET HE'S GONNA MAKE DRUGS WITH THAT OR BLOW UP THE TOWN, CALL THE POLICE!" and the science teacher would probably put me on the CIA watch list if I even hint that I want to do chemistry in there. School is about to end, so if I want to do it, I need to decide now. How does it work in your school? Would the teacher be nice, or would you immediately be expelled?

mud - 29-5-2013 at 19:45

What? Well how about not telling anybody? As you see here lots of people are all doing home chemistry here.

Finnnicus - 29-5-2013 at 20:15

I totally agree with mud. ONLY if what you are doing is legal. Mud and I's advice is
only applicable if you are abiding by your local and national responsibilities/laws.
Good luck.

adamsium - 29-5-2013 at 20:18

Firstly: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=24...

I think you'll find that, if your teacher indeed refuses to allow you to experiment beyond set class work, that it has much more to do with legal liability than with your skin colour. Modern society is extremely litigious and even a very minor accident could well result in very serious repercussions for both the teacher and the school. I'm not saying that racial profiling is a myth, but the only profiling that has happened here is on your part.

Some teachers (and just people in general) are less worried about this and will allow some students to do such things (as some others here have said their teachers do), but many will not. Unless you have a teacher who is allowing the 'white' students to experiment to their heart's content whilst denying requests from any student with a tinge of brown, I think it's unreasonable to draw the conclusions you're drawing, especially since you haven't even been refused permission, because you haven't even asked. None of us can predict what your teacher might say; the only way to find out is to ask. Whether you want to do that is entirely your decision.

zenosx - 29-5-2013 at 20:41

TLDR:> Skip Below:

I do not have advice for this in this day n age, but I just wanted to say how sad it is that chemistry has gotten such a bad rap from the meth makers out there. When I was a kid (early 80's), I had multiple chemistry sets starting at the age of 6 until my teens when I lost interest for a few years. They included things like acetic acid, sulfuric acid and copper sulfate just to name a few that I remember. The acids were very dilute I am sure, but I don't even SEE chemistry sets offered just wholesale like they used to be. I bought one form JC Penny and Sears if I remember right, now only specialty companies offer only the most rudimentary of sets.

Without a new generation of chemists, I am not sure what modern society thinks who is going to make all of the wonder drugs that they want, unless of course they work under "proper supervision".

Don't get me wrong, I work with things in my lab that I would never dream of letting a 14 year old handle without supervision (98% HNO3 for example). As a teenager, I, like most all, tended to be foolhardy, and you can very quickly hurt or kill yourself just "messing around" with lab chemicals. One specific occasion of many I remember is trying to extract the explosive from shotgun primers, eventually having one explode in my hand. I walked around with a brass shotgun primer in my hand for 4 years. FYI they are around the size of a .22 bullet, and I only had it removed when it interfered with my guitar playing.... that's the teenager foolhardy there...

On the other hand, there are those rare individuals that even at a young age take the necessary precautions and do even better and more detailed work than I could do on my best day, as I am still very new to the "hobby" even after several years.

TLDR: > START HERE:
It all depends what "experiments" you plan to undertake. If you approach your teacher with knowledgeable and researched questions on a synthesis or experiment that is not terribly inherently dangerous, I do not see why they wouldn't help you or answer some questions, regardless of your "darker skin".

However, if your first experiments are going to involve for instance nitration (usually for explosive use ect.), or any type of experiment using any part of known illicit drug manufacture, then you should obviously steer clear.'

I do not know what type of racism you experience in your community, which might be an issue since you mentioned it, but use your own judgement. Approach them with a knowledgeable mindset, be prepared to answer questions, possibly hard ones, and you may just get some help.

Good Luck!

Yes, I know, TOO LONG,, I am long winded, and type fast.

mud - 29-5-2013 at 21:03

btw, if your gonna blow things up please start with Monsanto :)

woelen - 29-5-2013 at 22:59

It is nonsense that police doesn't like you doing chemistry things at home. It all depends on the type of chemistry. If you work with explosives in larger quantities, or are making drugs, then indeed police does not like that. But chemistry is MUCH more than that. There are many beautiful experiments and useful syntheses that you can perform at home without the need to worry about police intervention.

Just look around at sciencemadness to get an idea of what kind of experiments people do. Some very nice starters are
- electrolysis of different kinds of salts
- experiments with all kinds of gases (even somewhat more dangerous gases can be handled safely if the right precautions are taken, e.g. Cl2, NO2, HCl, NH3)
- formation of colorfull precipitates and complexes. You even could try to isolate some interesting compounds.

The basic chemicals, needed for this kind of experiments can be obtained fairly easily, e.g. pottery suppliers for all kinds of metal salts, hardware store for acids, bases, ammonia. eBay also is a good source of chemicals. Probably you'll need to have your parents pay for you if you buy things online.

smaerd - 30-5-2013 at 10:52

Cou, don't worry about the race thing too much. Majority of science teachers and professors are liberal people and not racist in my experience. Here's what I would suggest. Come up with a fun experiment that you could do, nothing too advanced or expensive. Try and write something up about it like what you would like to do, why you're interested in it, etc. Then ask the teacher.

Chances are they'll say yes, but if you ask a professor if you can nitrate toluene or something at 14 years old well don't expect it to be well received. They might not want you to do it over the summer but hey maybe if you could get enough people interested you could start a science club or something.

zed - 30-5-2013 at 15:54

Personally, I am residing in the U.S.. In many parts of the U.S., it is considered perfectly natural for a 14 year old, to own a shotgun, a 22 caliber rifle, and possibly a high-powered bolt-action rifle for hunting. This is considered a family decision.

That being said, if you attend an expensive private school, much might be permitted.

If you are attending a standard American High School, very little is likely to be permitted. The exception might be......playing with chemistry as part of a science-fair project.

Special projects of this type are highly encouraged. So....Pick an interesting project, and make a proposal. If things go well, you will be presenting your results in a regional get-together of young scientists.







chemcam - 30-5-2013 at 17:23

Well I wouldn't put it that way, I went to a U.S. private school and my mother is a public school teacher and has been through a couple districts/schools so I have quite good knowledge dealing with this subject. What really matters is not the school but the instructor, if he/she actually enjoys teaching your chances will be very high, however, if they are there only for the paycheck your chances diminish exponentially.
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For example, at the private P.N.W. high school I attended my computer science instructor loved to teach and he took a liking to me so I was able to basically run the entire schools network for the four years I was there, for credit and money. Junior/Senior years I even had the key to unlock the school and network room so on the weekends me and my friends could have huge LAN parties using the top of the line equipment. I wish I had been into chemistry then.
My physics instructor was the opposite she hated her job, hated students and was an alcoholic, she was incredibly gifted with knowledge but she would not use it to teach, bare minimum lecture, terrible lessons and would not ever let me use equipment for anything other than the school work. I even had the highest test scores and was very interested in the physics field. She was what I call a "lame".
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You need to profile your instructors then you will know what you can/can't do. Are they enthusiastic about the lessons or do they barely know what they are doing..? Ask yourself stuff like that.

Endimion17 - 30-5-2013 at 17:24

Oh, come on, Cou... for fuck sake. Nobody will do anything. USA is getting really fucked, but nobody would care about anyone making experiments.
Unless you plan on doing synthesis and accumulation (or even worse, selling) of explosives and illegal drugs, the law doesn't have the power to stop you.
You're exaggerating and being paranoid. Keep your mouth shut and enjoy your chemistry. I recommend you to invest money in proper pipettes and a decent scale first... To keep you busy with the numbers. It comes in handy when you grow up.

Mercedesbenzene - 30-5-2013 at 20:59

I asked my chemistry teacher this exact question in high school. The next week I was in the lab doing what I wanted with some supervision of my chemistry teacher at the time. That was one of the best decisions I have ever made. As for actually asking him the worst he could probably say is no. My advice is absolutely go for it!

Bot0nist - 31-5-2013 at 05:03

In highschool I had a really great science teacher. She saw tha I had an intrest in chemistry, and I asked her all sorts of questions typical of a 9th and 10th grader that is interested in science, you know, a lot of kewl stuff.

One day she gave me a after school detention for talking during class, which I though was weird because I always talk in class. She even smirked a bit. So after the final bell I drug in there, and she had a Hoffmans apperatus set up and be isolated hydrogen and oxygen from water, and ignited the hydrogen. Kewl stuff. She also lat me make calcium carbide form calcium metal and carbon, and then we ignited the acytalene bubble that formed when the crude carbide was dumped in water. Making me write the balanced reaction for each project alomg the way, of course. After that it became routing for me to stay an hour or two late on thursday with her to do little demos and stuff. We played with Na in water, made week cellulose nitrate from 70% HNO3 and sulfuric, dehydrated sugar with H2SO4, made tiny amounts of nitrogen triiodide... All those cool demos that kids love. It was my favorite class, and the class I learned the most in, hands down. If there were more teachers like her, there would likely be many more teens interested in chemistry and science, instead of some of the more self destructive hobbies that are so common now.

Love and miss you Mrs. Boswell! Your class changed the course of my life, I have no doubt...

Moral of the story. Just ask! worst case they say no, so there is no reason to live in regret, always wondering. Just dont be stupid or sound like a "K3WL." Ask educated questions and be genuinly interested in the science behind the kewl reaction..

Good luck friend.

chemcam - 31-5-2013 at 08:10

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  

One day she gave me a after school detention for talking during class, which I though was weird because I always talk in class. She even smirked a bit.


Are you sure that is all she wanted, to show you chemistry? Maybe, also to fondle your "apparatus"? :P

Intergalactic_Captain - 31-5-2013 at 08:13

Back in school there are two teachers who come to mind - Mr Borucki and Mr Meek... Polar opposites when it came down to what I was allowed to get away with, but both of them at least knew that curious doesn't necessarily mean dangerous... The tech department, on the other hand... Lets just say someone got fired because he refused to play nice and was undone by his own incompetence and grandstanding...

...Anyways, we're going back oh, 12-13 years - If you're an american in NY you know how the "accellerated" process works, I was in it... Mr Borucki was my first chem teacher, and between the fact that grouping was still legal ("smart people" classes) and us both being batshit insane, I got away with anything I wished. Granted, I was all of 12-13 at the time, but it's incredibly satisfying to stop the class dead with a philosophical question, or jump in and balance an equation faster than the guy who supposedly taught you how to do it... I spent the better part of two years hanging out in his classroom after school - shootin the shit, free tutoring, "nobody's watching" experiments, etc... Hell, there's even an award in my honor at my school through him - the "Mad Scientist Award" is given upon middle-school graduation to students who show batshit insanity and a dedication to the persuit of science - At least it was, at a time... At my youngest sister's ceremony it had become another top-x gpa trophy...

Mr Meek, on the other hand, taught HS chem and physics. There was always the running joke that you aced one and failed the other - And his classes did more to prepare me for college than anything else... This guy knew absolutely positively what he was talking about - But he couldn't teach for shit. So long story short, he was the opposite of the above - I could talk to him all day long, ask theoretical crap and accidentally spawn the next days lecture, and just straight-up talk chemistry - but at the end of the day, there was zero liability and I was pushed aside in favor of the top-10 who could up the schools numbers in the states eyes...

...Screw 'em... Grad class of 83 students, only one accepted to not only one but both of my top choices - Turned down the private in favor of public due to vast superiority in what I wanted to do... UB and RIT if anyone cares...

...Anyways, that's just my experience - I grew up in a pretty rural setting smack dab in the middle of two failing major cities - The smaller you go, the more likely you are to find someone with a passion beyond teaching to the test. My only suggestion is to take a simple question and honestly ask for an explanation. Bad example, and it won't work if you're not in exactly the right situation - I once asked one of the above two how to determine the heat evolved in a nitration reaction - I mentioned specifically that it was in order to determine the heat evolved and therefore the cooling requirements necessary for the nitration of ethylene glycol... We never really got anywehre beyond discussing the operation of a bomb calorimeter, but it was at that point that he realized I knew what I was taling about and wasn't just some idiot or answer-memorizer... Considering this was all pre/during/immediately post-9/11, and everybody knew everybody, it probably won't work for you - However, the idea remains - You're obviously interested outside the classroom... Don't waste your time trying to be the best inside, rather show your prof that you know your shit - Respect goes a long way in a lot of things...

Bot0nist - 31-5-2013 at 09:07

Quote: Originally posted by chemcam  
Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  

One day she gave me a after school detention for talking during class, which I though was weird because I always talk in class. She even smirked a bit.


Are you sure that is all she wanted, to show you chemistry? Maybe, also to fondle your "apparatus"? :P


I know your joking, but that's in rather poor taste considering the obvious level of repect I have shown for her, dont you think? She has now passed, but perhaps if you would have had the pleasure of being one of her pupils you would feel the same way. Understand that where I grew up, good teachers were very rare, and great teachers were unheard of. I consider myself very lucky for having met and learned from her.

chemcam - 31-5-2013 at 09:38

Wow, take a chill pill. No, I do not think it was insulting or disrespectful or I wouldn't have said it. Student/teacher "relationships" are commonplace in these times and like you even said it was simply a joke. Are you so tightly wound that you don't see any humor in that? I have massive amounts of respect to all kinds of people but I still can joke with them. I am a laid-back, always happy guy and that is why I get along so well in the real world. How fun is life if you are offended so easily?

I seem to have severely misjudged you. I thought we would get along just fine since we had similar interests but that is obviously not the case.

[Edited on 5-31-2013 by chemcam]

Bot0nist - 31-5-2013 at 10:08

I wasnt offended. Just thought it was in poor taste for the thread is all. perhaps you should chill. I can joke with the best of them, that was just a sensitive topic for me, as she resently passed away. Anyways, sorry for raining on your parade.

chemcam - 31-5-2013 at 11:15

:o Oh you mean she had died, I took it as you were done with the class, you passed on from it. Yes, then it was not the time for a joke. Sorry. I was dumbfounded by the fact that you were upset but I see why now...

Bot0nist - 31-5-2013 at 12:03

Its ok, and I wasnt that upset. Emotional conveyance is difficult over txt. So much is lost without tone and pitch changes, facial expressions and body language. Our interests are similar, and I am sure we will get along fine. I am lead back as well. She was just sort of a hero to me when no one else in life took interest. Teenage years are rough anyways, and she helped direct me to a healthier path. She was a sweet, little old lady when I knew her anyways.. I did see the humor in the way I recounted getting called for detention, and your joke, BTW.

Anyways, sorry OP, for the detriment.

Cou - 31-5-2013 at 12:52

Well, at least I convinced my science teacher to do the DNA extraction lab on the last week of school, but i'm just praying I'll get a cool science teacher next year in 9th grade

Bot0nist - 31-5-2013 at 13:07

Nice. Take care not to drink the ice cold methanol. ;) Goes great with sheep intestines...

binaryclock - 1-6-2013 at 05:24

Cou... Here's the best word of advice you can get in my opinion.

Show innocent interest for chemistry. Show your teacher and people around you that you love the science of chemistry, and not just the reactions and the such. Get excited over a simple CuSO4 crystallization, or other non-explosive reactions. I mean, most people interested in doing harm will not get excited over the non-volatile reactions; it takes a real nerd to get excited over making crystals of copper :)

Once people get to know you past their original stereotypes, they judge people not on skin color but on your personality. If your teacher knows that you live for chemistry no matter what the reaction or experiment, the teacher her/himself will want to teach you as much as she/he can if your teacher is worth his/her salt.

Personally when I'm teaching programming/computers/electronics to students, if I find a certain student has a really keen interest in it past the other students, I take that student under my wing and try to make them a prodigy to see how far we can take things with teaching programming/computers/electronics. Skin color, race, or gender does not matter when two people have a strong interest in the same subject. You see the person for their true being.

bc


[Edited on 1-6-2013 by binaryclock]

mayko - 1-6-2013 at 11:16

Don't let a couple of obstacles discourage you, whatever you do! What if in the meantime you did kitchen chemistry, things that can be done safely and easily at home. This could mean growing salt and sugar crystals, making red cabbage juice pH paper, paper chromatography of local leaves and berries, and more. If you have interests in other fields, don't be afraid to branch out. See if you can get some agar online and see if dogs' mouths are really cleaner than humans', or if you really shouldn't flush the toilet next to your toothbrush. Or grow plants and see if they really do (dis)like music. Or get a goldfish and see if it hast an 8 second memory or if it can learn.

Don't worry too much if you have to use pickle jars and measuring cups. Fancy equipment is nice but it's not what science is about. Science is about paying attention. So keep a notebook, write down everything that you do and why, where you got the idea, and what you observed.

If the school year is almost over, don't worry about it, you have a whole summer where you can do science without the teacher telling you what to do. And then in the fall you can show them your notebook and what you are capable of on your own. Even if that doesn't convince them to use their stuff, they might be able to enter your work into a local science fair or something, which would be good for you and your school if you place.

The worst case scenario is, you get a lot of experience and you might discover just how far you can get by relying on yourself :)

zed - 1-6-2013 at 15:50

Chemcam.... Are you drunk? Your "Joke" wasn't funny to anyone over 12 years old.

Moreover, this is a serious thread, that seems to have been started by a shy young man of mid-eastern extraction, seeking advice. Crude sexual innuendos are inappropriate.

Think about it.

chemcam - 7-6-2013 at 13:45

It is unfortunate that I didn't catch this reply until a week later but since it is directed straight at me I will respond.

Your reply is quite unnecessary as you can see me and the person who I was talking too had gotten it straightened out. I apologized to him and even he realized how he made the opening line sound.

Also, had you read my other posts you would see I had already given a serious answer to the OP. You tell me to think about it, what are you talking about? Obviously I already have. Maybe what you mean to say is take more care into what I write, in that case, I am who I am and I will not change.

Good to know that the only active member who I live near is a lame with no sense of humor and tries to give online lectures.



zed - 11-6-2013 at 17:25

Name calling is inadvisable here.

chemcam - 11-6-2013 at 22:30

Nowhere did I call you a name, I merely stated how I perceived you as acting; lame.
And compared to what you posted at the beginning of this, I believe I replied quite nicely.
blah blah all is forgiven blah. We can hopefully start over now.

//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\

On another note.. In my four months of being a member here only two people have had negative interactions with me and both this last week, arguing not about science but irrelevant and unnecessary garbage... We all need to try harder to stay on topic.

zed - 22-6-2013 at 11:06


Atlantis is not near me. Atlantis, or what is left of it, is located on the coast of Spain. It appears that the legends may be correct....regarding its demise. It sank beneath the waves. Tsunami.

chemcam - 22-6-2013 at 11:56

Atlantis is not my true location haha. I'm just across the i205 bridge.