Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Using plyers to handle primaries.

Using plyers to handle primaries.

golfpro - 18-5-2013 at 12:29

That way my fingers never come within 6 inches of about a gram TATP cap I am planning on making. Have it in a vice grip while pouring the AP in from the filter paper and then snap the small lid shut, with pliers, wearing ear protection and safety glasses, this already has a fuse set up to it. I would carry it out with pliers and then light fuse. The tube is about pencil width and one inch long with fuse already attached

really Stupid thread but what is the chance this will accidentaly detonate? 35ml Acetone, 250ml H2O2, 18ml HCL slowly added when mix is cooled to 38*F.

Also, what if I fold combine .5gram Tatp and .5gram powder and use that, is this any safer than 100% TATP?

chemcam - 18-5-2013 at 12:44

I do not think you have the right knowledge to pull this off safely. By that synthesis you are going to have a shit load and once you see how sensitive it is you will be afraid to dispose of it. Make a test tube size batch to test everything. You also don't specify the % of H2O2, and at the end you say mix with powder, what the heck is "powder" powder of what?

I highly recommend you not make TATP, but if you are so inclined you should keep everything at 32F using a salt/ice bath. Don't mix everything and then cool, it all needs to be at 32F the entire time even during filtering.

Carrying with pliers means you could accidentally press to hard and KABOOM. If you act super scared towards it something bad will happen. Rethink what you are doing!

golfpro - 18-5-2013 at 13:02

lol I meant ground AN from prills, my mistake, this is not so much a consistent powder wrong word. I've made it before in tiny amounts, I tripled my ratios from last time using the exact same prodecure, last time I made just enough that it would deflagerate after it dried.

3% H2O2 and acetone was combined, cooled to 38* in ice bath, HCL was added dropwise over the course of a few minutes with stirring.

I will do my best to seprate into seperate quantites after filtration if there is more than I expected.

Thanks

Ral123 - 18-5-2013 at 13:32

Gloves, face shield, glasses, ear protection and plyers. This should keep your body not hurt, a lot... Also, before reaction cool the three ingredients in freezer way below zero. Then mix the H2O2 and acetone and let them in the freezer again for few hours. Then add some HCl and let them again. Then after few hours again add HCl. Wash the product well with just distilled water.
Be very careful when you insert the detonator in the brisant charge. AP in a large seconadry charge is like a mad man with a machine gun. Take every percussion necessary, to avoid spark from the fuze reaching the AP.

Fantasma4500 - 18-5-2013 at 14:08

good to hear somebody finally did think rationally and didnt went straight onto +50g ap as first batch..
i would say cooling in fridge is plenty, you dont get many hotspots formed with HCl compared to with H2SO4
you could use SnCl4 to acidify tho, it should yield tetraAP which is said to be more powerful and more stable

i have taken abit more than 1g ap and packed in aluminium foil tightly, a large crystal of ap can even be crushed without anything happening

anyways, why dont you just take a drinking straw, block off the bottom with hot glue or aluminium foil, then LIGHTLY press down the ap with a pencil or alike, and insert fuse ALSO REMEMBERING TO COVER IT UP SO SPARKS CANT ACCIDENTALLY IGNITE THE PRIMARY (!!!)

this is the stuff that makes disasters, aswell as not testing out fuse systems before going all in with say a 200g charge lit in the hand..
an examble of similar scenarios is a guy who made blackmatch, he put it in a straw to make it waterproof, problem is it turned into a quickmatch, and well his hand didnt really survive it, the uncensored video is still on youtube..

always remember to test out fuses and fuse systems.. i would prefer to be completely without primaries not only because you will be seen as a maniac for using the same as professional military worldwide but also as a person who doesnt know what youre dealing with (yes, this is frusteragingly stupid)

Ral123 - 18-5-2013 at 20:54

I don't think AP will work well if it's not well pressed and with a bottom charge. I'd say press it very hard and be prepared for the detonation. I have gambled like that many times.

violet sin - 18-5-2013 at 23:46

never really like the idea of grabbing explosive materials with factory sharpened shrapnel sticks ( aka pliers). I don't work with energetics for the most part, and I haven't played w/ TATP before. but who didn't blow at least a few things up as a kid( stumps, rocks etc. @ the gravel pit). in the past I always preferred to use wood in some manner or another to pick up and manipulate objects. chopstick method or ruler w/ tape or bamboo, rubber band, string, what ever.

some would disagree, but I would rather be picking out splinters for a month than having steel blow through my hand. splinters lose momentum quickly as they travel. I think that would increase the safety in comparison to metal chunks, with standard polycarbonate goggles/face shield. my reasoning is anything you carry with pliers is directly in front of your fingers and open palm( sorta) out in front of you. with the pliers between point A, your body (most directly your hand) and point B, the toy, they get thrown right at you if anything happens... if it's a little pop it might feel as though some one slapped them outta your hand. but as power increases you would definitely feel it kick. you could even see fragmentation, especially with needle nose pliers as they thin towards the tip. but most cheap tools are brittle and chip easily anyway, and most people don't attempt to blow up a good set.

it's just a suggestion though, after all, they are your fingers.
-violet sin-

caterpillar - 19-5-2013 at 02:41

I wrote about my method of using TATP for preparation detonators. After my post quicksilver closed that tread. He is no longer with us, and I think that I can say few words. 50 gr of 30% H2O2, 40 gr of acetone and few drops of HCl. There was no need in cooling of this mixture- reaction was not very exothermic and went slowly. Next day I washed obtained TATP , split it for small portions and dried it. I used Al tinfoil (not very thin, i guess it was 0.2 mm) and pencil, which I wrapped around. 3-4 cm of this tube was filled with TATP and pressed with same pencil, then fuse was inserted and fixed with scotch. That's all. The only precautions was gloves and pressing at arm's length from my face (I do have glasses). Few percent of graphite would have been useful to prevent statical discharge, but I did not use it. May be, it would be better to use some RDX and smaller amount of TATP, but I did not see why such device would be safer (and I had no RDX). This detonator worked fine- I had no problem with AN based compositions (AN + ammonium picrate + some Al).

Ral123 - 19-5-2013 at 03:25

There are major hazards in your plan. Not cooling the mixture is considered bad. The usage of pencil may lead to splinters. I use hard rod of rolled paper. Also, excess of acetone I think is a must, when I used excess of H2O2, the product decomposed easily. And finally, how do you carry around your foil detonator and insert it in the main? One of the main reasons detonators are made from metal is so it cannot bend where the primary is. 2ml syringes are decent compromise.

golfpro - 19-5-2013 at 09:11

how or why is "'quicksilver' not with us" and who was that? I've seen some posts by a 'quicksilver' that looked very helpful and good info..?

I'm going to mix half and half powdered AN/TATP.

Ral123 - 19-5-2013 at 09:45

You'll have a very hygroscopic primary with low brisanse and long DDT. I've heard it reduces the big crystals issue.

golfpro - 19-5-2013 at 10:59

I'm going to do TATP once for practice then move to HMTD then I will either use that to det. small amount of ETN perhaps or a non-primary I saw once. I also have AN and may try an AN mixture. I used to drive R/C cars that ran on 33% NM mixtures and other lubricants as a fuel, what are the chances this could be used in a ANNM mixture? How about ANNM w/ a bit of sugar? I may try this as an experiment.

I'll scrap the AN/TATP idea.

Thank you!

Fantasma4500 - 19-5-2013 at 11:04

APAN 1:1 is better used as a sensitive booster

a paper tube actually is probably the best of all these things to ''handle'' these dangerous things..

but really if youre so scared of handling a compound thats if made correctly not gonna do anything unless if you literally handle it with hammers i would say you might of picked the wrong hobby, problem is if you really want to stop it before you die from a nervous breakdown, lol.

but cooling isnt something you can skip.. its the ultimate must, cooling, ratios and neutralization, if you remember that aswell as obviously handling you will have a decently stable compound

if you skip cooling.. well then you will very likely get DATP, dimeric..
its less powerful also its much more sensitve..
i have seen tests of it which a french guy dared around with a few times.. he did handle it with any possible safety you can ever imagine, but you shouldnt handle DATP as being triAP or tetraAP

caterpillar - 19-5-2013 at 12:39

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123

There are major hazards in your plan. Not cooling the mixture is considered bad. The usage of pencil may lead to splinters. I use hard rod of rolled paper. Also, excess of acetone I think is a must, when I used excess of H2O2, the product decomposed easily. And finally, how do you carry around your foil detonator and insert it in the main? One of the main reasons detonators are made from metal is so it cannot bend where the primary is. 2ml syringes are decent compromise.

There is no need in cooling because reaction is not very exothermic. If you prepare HMTD, cooling is a must. Once I met such surprise, trying to prepare HMTD. After two hours of cooling I was sure, that temperature stopped its growing, leaved reaction vessel and went away. When I was in my home back, I saw liquid around aforementioned vessel and something very viscous in it. It was clear, that liquid boiled in my absence. You are right, syringes would be better, but there was no such things, when I made my experiments- only glass ones. As I wrote, I used relatively thick tinfoil and I had no problem with bending- my detonators was hard enough.

Ral123 - 19-5-2013 at 12:59

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

APAN 1:1 is better used as a sensitive booster

a paper tube actually is probably the best of all these things to ''handle'' these dangerous things..

but really if youre so scared of handling a compound thats if made correctly not gonna do anything unless if you literally handle it with hammers i would say you might of picked the wrong hobby, problem is if you really want to stop it before you die from a nervous breakdown, lol.

but cooling isnt something you can skip.. its the ultimate must, cooling, ratios and neutralization, if you remember that aswell as obviously handling you will have a decently stable compound

if you skip cooling.. well then you will very likely get DATP, dimeric..
its less powerful also its much more sensitve..
i have seen tests of it which a french guy dared around with a few times.. he did handle it with any possible safety you can ever imagine, but you shouldnt handle DATP as being triAP or tetraAP

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're the one who's going to get a nervous crisis about few grams of primary.

Adas - 20-5-2013 at 06:35

Cooling is, IMPE, not so important. I have done some tests, the non-cooled AP does not seem to be less stable than that one made with cooling. Cooling may give better yields, though. I have even tried making it at high temperature (~60°C) and it decomposed (or sublimed) after it has been formed.

Neutralization is more important, as traces of acid cause it to decompose slowly (with HCl you can smell chlorine after some time). Static is not a problem, IMPE. I have a Youtube video where I was trying to ignite some with static - no success. I should try with bigger amounts, though.

Many people fear that compound too much. They should not make it then, IMO. Respect is needed, but no fear. You don't need to fear anything as long as you know how to handle it, what to do and what not to do. Packing it by hand in an Al-foil is perfectly OK. The foil is a soft surface, so there is zero chance of ignition when you handle it carefully, IMPE.

Do not take my post as general rules. Many people say that their TATP went off just by taking it off the filter paper (I am not sure if I believe that). Everything written here is my personal experience!

Ral123 - 20-5-2013 at 06:48

Don't make me ask the guy who's AP exploded on slight compression register and post his story here

I've made with a lot of sulphuric and temperature like 40C. It wasn't sensitive or something, but still, don't make it that way.

Fantasma4500 - 20-5-2013 at 10:14

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're the one who's going to get a nervous crisis about few grams of primary.

haha.. no no.. you misunderstand it.. (: i just like to have something people will walk around a few hundred times wondering what the hell is and then classificate is as disfunctional and let me go because it doesnt go bang by contact with flame... (:

Fantasma4500 - 20-5-2013 at 10:17

actually im wondering... if you take all reagent as concentrated.. shouldnt you be able to make at room temperature something similar to Mn2O7 in sensitivity with acetone, h2o2 and hcl??
i mean it does form in the solution.. and when theres too much it starts to crystallize out of the solution.. so the solution should be potentially explosive by itself.. right?

Adas - 20-5-2013 at 13:06

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

actually im wondering... if you take all reagent as concentrated.. shouldnt you be able to make at room temperature something similar to Mn2O7 in sensitivity with acetone, h2o2 and hcl??
i mean it does form in the solution.. and when theres too much it starts to crystallize out of the solution.. so the solution should be potentially explosive by itself.. right?

Hydrogen peroxide is a potent oxidizer when concentrated. Why not?

Fantasma4500 - 20-5-2013 at 16:37

mhm.. but problem is that... if you say 60*C actually doesnt really do much danger..
im wondering if past 100*C would make it go bang?
and could concentrated H2O2 if added to highly acidified acetone solution make it become fun in small amounts??

if so then you could potentially set off a charge bursting concentrated H2O2 (0.1g HE + glass ampoule?) into acidified acetone

you see if you can have a thing that when unmixed is safe, you can put it together SAFELY and mix it with distance, still being relatively safe as long as they dont accidentally mix.. and with more energy, obviously reaction should be more energy and would most likely add to the whole thing (:

textex - 23-5-2013 at 02:57

IMO its better to use a blasting cap consisting of something like not to hard pressed ETN, and then to add 30-100mg of AP on top of it which is pressed down slighly with a long wooden stick or so. And to avoid fuse problems an electrical ignitor is easy to make, and pretty reliable. This will give you powerful and pretty reliant cap, and you wont have to handle 500< mgs of AP. But ofcourse it is a risk that the AP goes off while you press it into the cap, or when the cap is placed into the main charge or so, but thats just risks that has to be faced if one is gonna use AP(which i do not recommend).

golfpro - 23-5-2013 at 14:29

Ok, forget acetone peroxide for now.

My goal is to make a sub 20 gram "charge" eventually. I am still very much in the reading phases of this hobby, and I think I would like to try an ETN, PETN, or an AN compound. I just do not know where to get aluminum powder without ordering stuff off of the internet. I don't think I have enough experience/knowledge yet to synth. ETN or PETN, I also do not know where I would get pentaerythritol or erythritol but then I'm also not good enough yet to make a safe blasting cap. I am thinking trying ETN detonated w/ some .25g-1g confined flash powder acting like a cap eventually.

What is your opinion on detonating small amounts of AN mixtures such as under 25 grams (AMMONAL, ANNM etc.) I think you would need solid confinement in order to detonate small amounts of that.

thanks

[Edited on 23-5-2013 by golfpro]

Fantasma4500 - 24-5-2013 at 04:44

Quote: Originally posted by golfpro

Ok, forget acetone peroxide for now.

My goal is to make a sub 20 gram "charge" eventually. I am still very much in the reading phases of this hobby, and I think I would like to try an ETN, PETN, or an AN compound. I just do not know where to get aluminum powder without ordering stuff off of the internet. I don't think I have enough experience/knowledge yet to synth. ETN or PETN, I also do not know where I would get pentaerythritol or erythritol but then I'm also not good enough yet to make a safe blasting cap. I am thinking trying ETN detonated w/ some .25g-1g confined flash powder acting like a cap eventually.

What is your opinion on detonating small amounts of AN mixtures such as under 25 grams (AMMONAL, ANNM etc.) I think you would need solid confinement in order to detonate small amounts of that.

thanks

[Edited on 23-5-2013 by golfpro]

etn can be set off without involving any primaries, upping the safety many times
i think if youre getting started you might want to try a milligram amount of ap confined in aluminium foil in a thinwalled metal container, put in a hole in the ground, then you can take a look at the fragments you find in the ground.. (0.1g ap should do for a AAA size zinc-carbon battery zinc metal casing)
should give a clear picture on why you want to keep in mind where you light something off and also how it can end up and why you dont want to be in direct line of sight with something that can potentially give off fragments.. 0.5g is very loud of what i have heard from others.. claiming it to be as much as louder than 3 grammes flashpowder

very surely i think its a complete overkill to start out with more than 10g at once for sure.. (:

AndersHoveland - 27-5-2013 at 02:05

It is possible to handle it safely with simple improvised tools. However, there is a good chance there will be some potential hazard you have failed to consider, and therein lies the risk. Because there are many things that need to be considered, and a simple act of carelessness (where you temporarily disregard the safety precautions you set out to follow in the beginning) could result in disaster.