Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Salting out benzaldhyde from cinamaldheyd

Davyrocket - 10-5-2013 at 10:59

First off Hi to all members of this educational fourm..

This is my first post and forgive me if I come across as a bit rhetorical.
My chemistry is in very beginnings.

I Was very much interested in a post I read some time back
About a member talking about salting out the benzaldhyde from cinamaldheyd,
Forgive me I Fogot the members name my bad ...,

Also I wish to conduct a experiment out in the near future,
As I has around 2kg off good cinnimon powder lying around ,( yes I know the work ups call for the use of oil).

However would it be possible to throw the powder into the mix bisulfate h20/alcohol solution for reflux....or do I need to steam distill the powder in a alcohol
Solution to obtain the oil first.

Then to proceed forward with the oil reflux in h20/alcohole bi sulfate.

After this I was planning a salting out procedure with sodium chloride
To obtain benzaldhyde ......

Ps sorry of post in wrong thread please feel free to move
If need be.....

http://www.cjche.com.cn/CN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?at...








[Edited on 10-5-2013 by Davyrocket]

vmelkon - 10-5-2013 at 16:53

The link you posted requires beta-cyclodextrin and sodium hypochlorite. There are other methods for example
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=22...

Someone named Cycloknight uses NaOH, lecithin, cinnamon oil.

I would try to follow a procedure closely to avoid problems unless you feel like experimenting with the cinnamon powder.

Davyrocket - 10-5-2013 at 17:45

Thx for response vmelkon

Yea I read the great work up of Cycloknight a tribut to his affort

However I did read some where about benzaldhyde being salted out
Of the cinamaldheyd by a reputable member on this site but I can't find the post for the life of me :(...

As for proceeding the reflux with powder cinimon instead of the more expensive oil,
I don't mind going forward with this and giving it a go if there was a 50/50 chance of getting some sort Of yield of benzaldhyde ....

however I don't fancy wasting products if it flat out ain't gona work...
I am thinking there might be a possibility of lower yields,
(health shop grade)

I can live with a lower yield of benzaldhyde if is the case....


The rocket

Hexavalent - 11-5-2013 at 00:47

Not to be overly-concerned, but does anyone else find this somewhat suspicious? The poster claims to be new to chemistry, but decides to begin with an isolation of benzaldehyde? Something not quite right here, IMO.

Davyrocket - 11-5-2013 at 05:05

Hi Hexavalent

Sry Hexavalent I dident know I was under some sort of scrutiny,
I am not new to this fourm but I am a new poster,
And my chemistry is in the beginnings

But hay every 1 has to start some where and as benzaldhyde is not toxic
I suppose that's a good place to start.

Hope this clears up your cureosity....:)

Thx rocket

Hexavalent - 11-5-2013 at 07:37

Quote: Originally posted by Davyrocket  

But hay every 1


This does not give a good impression of you; you're either too stupid to write out full words, or are simply lazy. Even people who's main language is not English should make their best effort to spell, punctuate and use grammar correctly.
Quote: Originally posted by Davyrocket  

benzaldhyde is not toxic


Everything is toxic in sufficient quantites over a sufficient time scale, including benzaldehyde. The issue is not the toxicity of this compound, but it's role as a precursor for manufacturing illicit substances: this is why I was suspicious of someone who appears to be a k3wl (owing to their inability to use the English language properly), who also claims to just be beginning chemistry, but happens to have large quantities of cinnamon powder, from which they want to extract benzaldehyde in reasonable quantities.

Davyrocket - 11-5-2013 at 11:09

Hi Hexavalent

Well each to there own opinion that's all i can say,back to topic.

So I refluxed the powder in the same manner as I would the oil 150g cin powder,
30g NaHCO3 and 1L h20 all refluxed for 7 hours,

then filterd washed out a good 2-3 times with a 1to1 ratio of NaCl both layers separated in two lairs, all salt seemed to take all the crap to the bottem and I was left with a very light tinted liquid on top,

After boiling down, there was left a very strong sweet almond smelling crystals
With no cinnimon smell at all.

Possible benzaldhyde???/or just crap

Any ideas

Thx the rocket




ThatchemistKid - 11-5-2013 at 16:03

Well, assuming you had benzaldehyde there... Benzaldehyde is a liquid at room temperature but easily oxidizes in air (especially if heated) to benzoic acid which is a crystalline substance. So if you did have benzaldehyde there it seems to have been oxidized and what you are left with is benzoic acid coated in a small amount of benzaldehyde!

chemcam - 11-5-2013 at 16:27

Davyrocket's Mood Status,
Quote:

Mood: Euphoric if it works

I wonder what he is doing, hex.

Davyrocket - 11-5-2013 at 16:40

Thank you ThatchemistKid

For your Kind contribution

Well it aint all doom and gloom then.
Because if this is benzoic acid that has been produced.

Perhaps I could do a 1to1 ratio of NaOH & my newly obtained product,
To produce some sort of benzene. Via dry distalation,No.???

Any contributions very most welcom or any tweaks that any one can contribute,
If interested I could post som pics of reactions...

Perhaps a good OTC way to benzoic acid from cinnimon powder:)
After all 1kg of cinnimon powder is only £6 a kilo from the local health shop..
Save messing with eBay :)

Thx again
ThatchemistKid
The rocket...


[Edited on 12-5-2013 by Davyrocket]

[Edited on 12-5-2013 by Davyrocket]

[Edited on 12-5-2013 by Davyrocket]

Davyrocket - 12-5-2013 at 17:39

Hi all.....update

Ok folks I since tryed some denture extractions after my salting out procedures,

I boiled most of the water off and was left with two layers a pink salt layer and a dark brown layer I washed & filtered with surgical spirits and small clear oil droplets appeared to the top of the filtered solution....???

However I never I never recorded data
But for 150g of cinnimon powder ther was around
5-10 ml of clear oil droplets on the surface of the
Solution




Thx rocket


[Edited on 13-5-2013 by Davyrocket]

vmelkon - 17-5-2013 at 07:51

Quote: Originally posted by Davyrocket  

Perhaps a good OTC way to benzoic acid from cinnamon powder:)
After all 1kg of cinnamon powder is only £6 a kilo from the local health shop..
Save messing with eBay :)


I suppose that is a good price. I bought 1.3 kg of sodium benzoate from ebay for 23$. Convert your benzoic acid to sodium benzoate and then dry distillate with NaOH prills. You will need a metal apparatus. Run small batches, ~150 g, and heat for a good while, 1 hour 15 min with a propane torch.
My yield was 87% when I did it.