Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Deflagration on impact

APO - 7-4-2013 at 13:19

My friend wants a fast burning smoke bomb that will ignite on impact, the smoke composition is 64cc of Potassium Nitrate, 28cc of Sucrose, and 8cc High Fructose Corn Syrup, then I typically recrystallize it and while still in a molten state, I roll it up into a ball and stick it in a desiccating chamber. He had an idea about adding those little "snapper" fireworks that have Silver Fulminate and Potassium Chlorate in them to some Ammonia in hopes of extracting the Silver Fulminate. I said that it didn't sound very effective, since it may form a complex and be useless or may detonate under the weight of the solvent. I thought about adding some 90% Sulfur to a Potassium Chlorate mix instead, but that's I've come up with so far. Anything would be greatly appreciated.

Adas - 7-4-2013 at 13:26

Armstrong's mixture is very shock-sensitive, so tell him to take a VERY SMALL amount of KClO3 and mix it carefully with red P (or red P + some NH4NO3 for better burning). This mixture would not explode, because there is too few KClO3, but it will ignite the phosphorus.

At least in theory :P

Motherload - 7-4-2013 at 13:36

Don't mess with anything more than a 1/2 gram..
Read my post in life after detonation thread.
I thought I was doing everything right with precautions ........ Wrong.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=22554&...


[Edited on 7-4-2013 by Motherload]

ScienceSquirrel - 7-4-2013 at 13:58

I would be cautious with a project like this.
The preparation of small amounts of materials that deflagrate or explode is not generally illegal if they are prepared in a spirit of scientific enquiry and there is no intent to fabricate them into a 'device'.
If you were apprehended by the police carrying such a device or detonated such a device in a public place you might face legal consequences.

Ral123 - 7-4-2013 at 14:07

Ball between electrodes. When you throw it, the ball falls from the impact and the electrodes touch. Then something ignites your smoke device. It's the only reliable and predictable impact ignition solution.

APO - 7-4-2013 at 14:58

More detail please, Ral123.

Finnnicus - 7-4-2013 at 19:48

I know it sounds maybe toooo simple. The heads of strike anywhere matches... Then use a booster to ignite the sugar/ox mixture.

Ral123 - 7-4-2013 at 23:25

Quote: Originally posted by APO  
More detail please, Ral123.

Use some imagination. You don't need a drawing or something.

Finnnicus - 7-4-2013 at 23:27

What would you use to create the arc within. And all the circuitry and pcbs would burn... Ewww. I don't think it would be very practical ral.

EDIT: Plus, I don't think self contained electrical ignition is what he's looking for.

[Edited on 8-4-2013 by Finnnicus]

woelen - 7-4-2013 at 23:44

Quote: Originally posted by Adas  
Armstrong's mixture is very shock-sensitive, so tell him to take a VERY SMALL amount of KClO3 and mix it carefully with red P (or red P + some NH4NO3 for better burning). This mixture would not explode, because there is too few KClO3, but it will ignite the phosphorus.

At least in theory :P
This is very bad advice and is asking for BIG trouble! A red P/KClO3 mix is insanely sensitive. You say that a very small amount should be used, so there is no real risk of a huge explosion, but there still is the risk of fire. What if the smoke bomb ignites while being transported, or while simply sitting in the cupboard somewhere in a house? Red P + KClO3 has no use at all in pyrotechnics! I once wanted to make some of this, just for fun and wanted to ignite it with concentrated sunlight. I put a few 100's of milligrams of KClO3 on a concrete tile. I put some red P on the KClO3 and took a flexible little branch from a tree to mix the two chemicals. While I carefully mixed the two chemicals the pile suddenly deflagrated with an intense flash and little burning drops of molten KClO3/P mix were sprayed around, some of them touching my hand. I had several tiny painful spots on my hand (very small, less than 1 mm diameter). Even the careful motion of the chemicals with the little branch was sufficient to ignite the mix. I never needed the magnifying glass to ignite the stuff.

Finnnicus - 8-4-2013 at 02:54

How long ago would that be woelen? I have had some nasty run ins with armstrongs too, but I still love the stuff. I have found that 'diluting' with sawdust seems to help.

woelen - 8-4-2013 at 03:06

That was five or six years ago and since then I made the mix one time more, appr. 50 mg on a petri dish and ignited by tapping it with a glass rod. This last experiment is on my website now:

http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/raw_material...

Endo - 9-4-2013 at 08:56

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
Quote: Originally posted by Adas  
Armstrong's mixture is very shock-sensitive, so tell him to take a VERY SMALL amount of KClO3 and mix it carefully with red P (or red P + some NH4NO3 for better burning). This mixture would not explode, because there is too few KClO3, but it will ignite the phosphorus.

At least in theory :P
This is very bad advice and is asking for BIG trouble! A red P/KClO3 mix is insanely sensitive. You say that a very small amount should be used, so there is no real risk of a huge explosion, but there still is the risk of fire. What if the smoke bomb ignites while being transported, or while simply sitting in the cupboard somewhere in a house? Red P + KClO3 has no use at all in pyrotechnics! I once wanted to make some of this, just for fun and wanted to ignite it with concentrated sunlight. I put a few 100's of milligrams of KClO3 on a concrete tile. I put some red P on the KClO3 and took a flexible little branch from a tree to mix the two chemicals. While I carefully mixed the two chemicals the pile suddenly deflagrated with an intense flash and little burning drops of molten KClO3/P mix were sprayed around, some of them touching my hand. I had several tiny painful spots on my hand (very small, less than 1 mm diameter). Even the careful motion of the chemicals with the little branch was sufficient to ignite the mix. I never needed the magnifying glass to ignite the stuff.


If you must try Armstrong's mixture one way to keep it from exploding while mixing is to use a solvent. I used acetone and with minimal stirring could get the phosphorous suspended and ingredients mixed, scooping out the KClO3 phosphorous mix after allowing it to settle, and allowing it to dry on squares of paper that had been twisted up while still wet with acetone allows one to carefully handle the whole mess by a tail. When thrown it sounded like a pistol report, ringing ears and all.

Fantasma4500 - 10-4-2013 at 06:46

if not using armstrongs mix (with high amount of red phosphorus) then you could try ClO3 + ferrocerium, its quite sensitive aswell, you can get it as lighter flints..

woelen - 10-4-2013 at 12:46

What is ClO3? This does not exist. Please be precise with formulas and also with writing style (use of capital letters, punctuation).

Adas - 10-4-2013 at 12:47

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
What is ClO3? This does not exist. Please be precise with formulas and also with writing style (use of capital letters, punctuation).


He probably meant KClO3

Bert - 11-4-2013 at 12:14

Let me guess. Ninja smoke bombs? Kewl!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAezUIPa3WE

Workable ignition train, but the video maker knows nothing of chemistry. Glad to see him wearing safety goggles, I would certainly don a pair of thin leather gloves before trying to assemble or hand carry such a device. Burnt fingers are painful!

1. A dozen Silver fulminate torpedoes, disassembled and the contents used as the initiator. Good luck with the disassembly.

2. A bit of ground material off of a "metal match" fire starter rod mixed with the gravel/Silver fulminate from the torpedoes to produce enough hot sparks to transfer fire to the smoke mix. The metal fire starter is probably mostly ferrocerium alloy, not Magnesium as the video maker keeps calling it.

3. Rocket fuel, actually crude black powder from his description of the ingredients. He has scratch mix black powder, but keeps calling it sugar rocket fuel.

As the video maker notes, mixing the black powder with the first fire will dilute it and possibly keep the device from functioning. To avoid this, I would substitute a piece of black match embeded in the shock sensitive first fire mix for the loose black powder, with the match leading to a separate package of fine grained rocket candy and a small ammount of 4FG black powder or equivalent to spread the fire quickly through the smoke mix.

Try not to hurt yourself. Everyone who works with such devices and mixtures will eventually have an accidental ignition, plan on this and wear adequate safety gear, while keeping your quantities small and working outdoors at a place separate from other chemicals or mixtures that will make your upcoming accident worse than it has to be.

[Edited on 11-4-2013 by Bert]

[Edited on 11-4-2013 by Bert]

neptunium - 11-4-2013 at 20:47

what about sulfuric acid and potassium permanganate? separated by a thin glass ampoule? all insid your smoke thing? know what i mean?

Finnnicus - 11-4-2013 at 23:10

Quote: Originally posted by neptunium  
what about sulfuric acid and potassium permanganate? separated by a thin glass ampoule? all insid your smoke thing? know what i mean?


With some skilled glass blowing that could turn out really well. But I'd still feel weird storing potential Mn2O7, errrrk :o

[Edited on 12-4-2013 by Finnnicus]

Trotsky - 12-4-2013 at 01:48

How long are you planning on storing the thing? These things are best for immediate use only.

It takes a little bit for the stuff to react. If I were doing this I wouldn't use glass for sure. You'd want to come up with some sort of plastic that'd easily tear or open under pressure or something. Mn2O7 has a tendency to detonate with fuel, not just make fire. If the amount were very small the need for an instant Impact-Poof, it might work quite well. Otherwise some sort of grenade action- "pull pin" (mix) and toss (impact causes contact with the new Mn2O7). That'd probably be the safest way to do something inherently unsafe. You'd be in control of the actual generation of Mn2O7 but you'd be at a distance when it was introduced to fuel. The quantity you'd need would be very, very small, too, always good when dealing with strong acids, manganese containing compounds and dangerous shit in general.

APO - 21-4-2013 at 10:42

I would make it, then give it to my friend, then it's his problem.

Adas - 21-4-2013 at 11:01

Quote: Originally posted by APO  
I would make it, then give it to my friend, then it's his problem.


It's good to see how much you care about your "friends"... Jeez..

chemcam - 21-4-2013 at 16:32

Quote: Originally posted by APO  
I would make it, then give it to my friend, then it's his problem.


And if he hurts himself, or others, its your problem once again. Very bad idea to make energetic material for someone else. If they can't make it themselves they probably don't know how to handle properly. Now that I know the motive of the OP and other peoples lives could be affected by this I cannot offer any tips or ideas. It would seem sensible to no longer continue thread at this point.

[Edited on 4-22-2013 by chemcam]

Fantasma4500 - 22-4-2013 at 11:28

i must agree with chemcam
refuse to give energetic materials to people you are not sure if about if theyre careful

in norway something of larger scale happened.. a guy who knew his ways around energetics was asked by his always loyal pyro-blow-stuff-up friend if he could fix something up with him for NYE..
the type thats always around when you put in the blasting cap etc etc.. knows how a fuse works and such but not the chemistry behind it and such..
he made him 3.4kg apan
supposed to be let off on a hill out of town
the guy got a call from his friend at around 2400 saying the fuse was lit and it was burning infront of the school.
3.4 kg of explosives..
so he rushed down to his bicycle in hope to reach it before it went off
as he was rushing to try and stop it he heard the bang run through the city

story didnt mention what happened to his friend.. nobody was hurt except for +200 windows in near laying blocks and a +1 metre deep hole in the asphalt
the guy who made it got 14 days in jail IIRC and he stopped pyro to calm down his neighbours, called the cops when he got out and told them to come get it all..

you dont want this kind of situation.. i think for even putting together 3.4kg of secondary alone 14 days is NOTHING AT ALL
you really need to refuse when somebody that is clueless on how many ways it could go wrong handling it respectless, no offense..

anyways, i have an idea for you..

copper pipe
end capped off
fill with water
put in glass ampoule with sodium or potassium metal
when its thrown on ground it should ignite
i have heard white phosphorus topped bottles have been used for the same purpose
copper tubing because it needs a strong blow to cause actually dangerous fragments rather than bend metal AFAIK
perhaps some leadshots could be added to the glass ampoule


back in time i took a pencil size tube
2 5.5mm lead pellets
2 pieces of armstrongs mix from commercial fireworks (0.15g / piece?)
added abit of kmno4 mg flashpowder sealed the tube up and carried it the 10 metres to the front door and threw it at nearest wall

tube was very well sealed, this shouldnt be reenacted.. can go wrong very very easily if you forget what end of the tube the pellets are laying in
the mark is still there on the wall

long post i know, sorry if its bugging anyone (=

Finnnicus - 22-4-2013 at 18:03

I think someone APO doesnt have access to alkali metals... Just a thought. Sorry to lokk like a n00b but whats APAN? NH4ClO4/NH4NO3? erk

chemcam - 22-4-2013 at 20:17

APAN is Acetone Peroxide Ammonium Nitrate.

Finnnicus - 22-4-2013 at 20:23

That seems.... dangerous/unstable/explosive/notagoodidea/idiotic. Thx

Trotsky - 23-4-2013 at 00:55

More than 3kg of ammonium nitrate and tatp? Wtf??

What sort of ratio? Shit that would have to be a kilo of tatp? Fuck, I'm afraid of a gram. I can't imagine driving around town with 3+ kilos of highly sensitive primary explosive. Imagine what would have happened if he was driving and that went off? Everyone in his car and probably anyone in a car nearby.

14 days? Insanely light.

Fantasma4500 - 23-4-2013 at 07:57

Quote: Originally posted by Finnnicus  
That seems.... dangerous/unstable/explosive/notagoodidea/idiotic. Thx


yes and no
1:1 is used for booster and 12/88 (you know what the smallest part is) is used for secondary
apparently this mixture is wetmixed, meaning theres mixed in abit of water..

Fantasma4500 - 23-4-2013 at 07:59

Quote: Originally posted by Trotsky  
More than 3kg of ammonium nitrate and tatp? Wtf??

What sort of ratio? Shit that would have to be a kilo of tatp? Fuck, I'm afraid of a gram. I can't imagine driving around town with 3+ kilos of highly sensitive primary explosive. Imagine what would have happened if he was driving and that went off? Everyone in his car and probably anyone in a car nearby.

14 days? Insanely light.


~~APAN~~ not 3.4kg ap.. (:
12/88 for secondary, dont know if it was wetmixed but i heard about it being mixed that way
but yes insanely light

i consider the compound very overrated, back in time i never had one single accident with it, but i washed it very well with water tho.. i guess this is one of the things that tells if you didnt pay enough respect to it

Trotsky - 24-4-2013 at 02:19

Is APAN mixed in this manner not still a primary explosive? I have only seen it in 1:3 and 1:1 ratios and it was still definitely a primary in that form. How does this ratio make a secondary? You hit that with a hammer and it's still going off. It's more sensitive than petn. Static will still set it off. I don't know how well the tatp portion will be at initiating the AN if some of it were to be set off by static, though. I suspect it'll do a fine job.

Using hcl instead of h2so4 and washing it carefully is definitely the key to being safe, alongside treating it like it's always about to detonate.

caterpillar - 24-4-2013 at 04:33

It is. Once I made such mixture, but 20-30 gr only. Looking backward, I think that it was a bad idea. large amount of a primer (more than 1-2 gr) is something that must be avoided.

Fantasma4500 - 24-4-2013 at 07:49

Quote: Originally posted by Trotsky  
Is APAN mixed in this manner not still a primary explosive? I have only seen it in 1:3 and 1:1 ratios and it was still definitely a primary in that form. How does this ratio make a secondary? You hit that with a hammer and it's still going off. It's more sensitive than petn. Static will still set it off. I don't know how well the tatp portion will be at initiating the AN if some of it were to be set off by static, though. I suspect it'll do a fine job.

Using hcl instead of h2so4 and washing it carefully is definitely the key to being safe, alongside treating it like it's always about to detonate.


well i have seen many videos with large amounts of APAN 12 88 ratio
and when you also add water to this to get a slurry i guess the ap makes up for sensitivity making it plausible around... sensitivity of 85 15 ammonal

Fantasma4500 - 24-4-2013 at 08:06

Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  
It is. Once I made such mixture, but 20-30 gr only. Looking backward, I think that it was a bad idea. large amount of a primer (more than 1-2 gr) is something that must be avoided.


well i think its very overrated, as stated before i never had an accident
and what makes the accidents are insane amounts, fuse malfunction, poor neutralization, static electricity (very seldom), handling it wrong as shock/friction
basically all of these are taking risks while handling it.. you shouldnt ever do that..

but consider that 12% of 3400g was ap
thats 408g pure ap
i have even seen 1 kg handled (abit wet tho)
and nothing went wrong, but im sure you can count making 1 kg as a risk FOR SURE

when handled wet im unsure if it can ignite by static electricity, generally more insensitive.. so for apan it would be the best to not dry it, just carefully take the water out of it and mix it with fine an powder >>CAREFULLY<< ofcourse

Trotsky - 24-4-2013 at 08:55

People do stupid things every day without dying. That isn't evidence of the safety of what they were doing just evidence that some people get lucky. Statistics show SO to be extremely unpredictable. Because you've had a good run so far really only means you haven't had a long enough run for it to go bad.

I haven't had an accident myself but I know for a fact that we'll made and cleaned SO has been known to go off spontaneously. It's usually blamed on static, I dunno. It could just be one crystal breaking under its weight. If this can happen with a gram, it can easily happen with 400.




Does it really matter that only twelve percent was tatp? If a tiny bit happens to go off you have 3.4 kilos of high explosive detonating. A little static, some crystals cracking under the weight and boom.

woelen - 24-4-2013 at 09:19

This thread is going the wrong way and becomes more and more k3wlish.

Dealing with 100's of grams of AP is STUPID, very STUPID! That's all what I can say about it.

You risk your own life, but also that of others. If I knew that my neighbor was messing with AP in this way, I probably would report him if he did not change his behavior after remarks from my side. All people over here, writing that they have safely handled AP in large quantities (be it wet or not) I consider as stupid k3wls. STOP DOING THAT and don't spread the idea of relative safety to others. There is no safety with AP in larger than 100's of milligram quantities!

caterpillar - 24-4-2013 at 15:38

Same words can be said about ANY of primaries. 100 gr of dry mercury fulminate is dangerous too. Few percent of graphite decreases sensitivity to static. Point is that sensitive explosive must be prepared and used in small quantities. Real danger occurs when an initiator has a contact with large amount of usual explosive. This time must be as small as possible. Insert a detonator into a main charge and run away. But preparation of compounds (mixtures), sensitive enough to go off after light impact must be avoided.

Trotsky - 24-4-2013 at 21:21

Would 3.4kg of APAN mixed as such not qualify caterpillar?

caterpillar - 24-4-2013 at 22:13

3.4 kg of such mixture could send to play harp not only producer himself, but some innocent people too. Had I known that my neighbor had made such things, I would have informed police.

froot - 24-4-2013 at 22:58

This topic is about deflagration on impact and here people are posting about kg quantities of unpredictable primaries. I get goosebumps thinking about what you people are talking about and it's this kind of behaviour that gives chemistry a bad name, pleeeease stop it!
In the interests of experimentalism I'd suggest you design your device so that it's primeable, ie, pull a pin before you throw it kind of thing so that it cannot go off when you dont want it to. And use something a little more benign to ignite the smoke mix such as NH4NO3 + NH4Cl + Zn + H2O. From here on its mechanics.

caterpillar - 24-4-2013 at 23:34

Sorry, I had no intention to send same message twice. Nice jokes of my post program.

[Edited on 26-4-2013 by caterpillar]

chemcam - 25-4-2013 at 00:35

Did you guys not fully read this thread from the beginning? If you had, you wouldn't be giving tips. The OP basically says he doesn't care what it is, that he is making it for a friend, and when he hands it over it his problem so stability means nothing. This screams k3wl to me.

Fantasma4500 - 26-4-2013 at 07:33

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
This thread is going the wrong way and becomes more and more k3wlish.

Dealing with 100's of grams of AP is STUPID, very STUPID! That's all what I can say about it.

You risk your own life, but also that of others. If I knew that my neighbor was messing with AP in this way, I probably would report him if he did not change his behavior after remarks from my side. All people over here, writing that they have safely handled AP in large quantities (be it wet or not) I consider as stupid k3wls. STOP DOING THAT and don't spread the idea of relative safety to others. There is no safety with AP in larger than 100's of milligram quantities!


if you were talking about me handling +10g then it never happened.. infact never more than 1g
but again, if you do handle it properly it wont go off, but ofcourse if you hope youre lucky when handling it careless theres a big chance.. using ap in more than 100g amounts or just around that is purely k3wlish i agree on that, but still the idea of using it as a secondary is rather interesting as it isnt really sensitive that way as also wet
but again you need at some point a very big amount of pure ap

theres always a chance of something going wrong even if you dont plan on handling it wrong..

Fantasma4500 - 26-4-2013 at 07:40

Quote: Originally posted by chemcam  
Did you guys not fully read this thread from the beginning? If you had, you wouldn't be giving tips. The OP basically says he doesn't care what it is, that he is making it for a friend, and when he hands it over it his problem so stability means nothing. This screams k3wl to me.


agreed.. people should read back in the thread on why there was even being talked about nearly kg amounts of primaries!!
nobody encouraged to make kg amounts of primaries AFAIK
i talked about this whole thing about giving it to a friend who doesnt have respect for it as in what that can go wrong and how it can affect you

i even know another examble of this, guy made pipebombs with gunpowder, kinda k3wlish
what worse is his friend feels abit down decides to make 9shittonnes of drama with it and a pellet gun

where i live theres grenades for sale every year around NYE.. surprisingly you never hear about accidents with these, and theres being sold MANY.. people use them as firecrackers, just the whole idea that people even throw firecrackers at others for fun is insane

ScienceSquirrel - 26-4-2013 at 08:26

Thread closed.
Energetic materials should be about experiments with safe quantities of materials. 3kg of APAN is a life threatening and illegal bomb.