Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Chlorate Mixtures like Miedziankit, comparing sodium- and potassium chlorate

Gargamel - 30-3-2013 at 13:45

Hi,

i mixtures like miedziankit very interesting, simply because the main critical ingredient can be made at home, what makes it easier to "fly under the radar".

Now I did a little thinking about whether sodium or potassium chlorate is superior (Hygroscopy does not count).

Facts are:
-decomposition of Sodium chlorate is very little more exothermic

-Sodium chlorate decomposes at lower temperatures

-Sodium chlorate contains more oxygen/more fuel can be used

Does that automatically mean that it will react faster/reach higher detonation velocities?

And - rather hypothetical - when used as oxidizer in rocketfuel, can one assume sodium chlorate to have a higher pressure exponent?

Ral123 - 31-3-2013 at 03:44

I'm pretty sure sodium chlorate will give better performance, however I haven't managed to make NaClO3 at home by electrolisys yet, and KClO3 was a piece of cake...

Adas - 31-3-2013 at 04:09

I managed to make NaClO3 at home. A lots of time and graphite electrodes. I never purified it, though.

Gargamel - 6-4-2013 at 04:08

It seems like sodium nitrate does burn rather sluggish compared with potassium nitrate in pyrotechnical mixture.

I wonder if this be extrapolated on the chlorates...?

Ral123 - 6-4-2013 at 11:17

I guess again sodium mixtures will have slower burning rate and higher energy density.

Fantasma4500 - 6-4-2013 at 13:43

actually sodium salts are said to be better than potassium -- more reactive..

i know that sodium chlorate is better for armstrongs mix than potassium chlorate, speaking of power
also a youtuber shows the power of good sodium nitrate flashpowder
i tried lithium nitrate myself, if youre quick enough to mix it up with magnesium before it drags too much water from air its much faster than both KNO3 and NaNO3..
if we say theres 0% humidity in KClO3 and NaClO3 i would say NaClO3 would win (:

KCLcoal - 29-3-2021 at 20:23

The Miedziankit explosive is a composition with kerosene and therefore prevents the entry of moisture in the atmosphere. Therefore, I think that the problem of n deliquescent is less likely to appear with sodium chlorate.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 7-4-2021 at 22:13

Miedziankit is mainly historical mixture, which come from war times. Where was no available better fuels and better oxidizers. Now is 76 years after war. It turns out, that for example NaClO3 and modern fuels gives much better results. Miedziankit ended up in the abyss of history.

caterpillar - 8-4-2021 at 01:37

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Miedziankit is mainly historical mixture, which come from war times. Where was no available better fuels and better oxidizers. Now is 76 years after war. It turns out, that for example NaClO3 and modern fuels gives much better results. Miedziankit ended up in the abyss of history.


Is there something chlorate-based explosive in current use? I read about one only, and, as a matter of fact, it was perchlorate based explosive. AP+RDX+Al + some plastificator.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 8-4-2021 at 03:05

yes http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=156719...

Alkoholvergiftung - 8-4-2021 at 05:55

I think the Potassiumchlorate is more reaktive. Good example of an explosive of that time is Potassiumchlorate and paraffin. They wrote it doesnt work with sodiumchlorate.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 14-4-2021 at 08:05

Quote: Originally posted by Alkoholvergiftung  
I think the Potassiumchlorate is more reaktive. Good example of an explosive of that time is Potassiumchlorate and paraffin. They wrote it doesnt work with sodiumchlorate.


KClO3 ......solubility in water ....7,3g../100g H2O/ 20C
NaClO3......solubility in water 95g....../100g H2O/ 20C
In future can arise NaClO3 - water composition. With suitable fuels - water soluble.

caterpillar - 14-4-2021 at 15:13

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Quote: Originally posted by Alkoholvergiftung  
I think the Potassiumchlorate is more reaktive. Good example of an explosive of that time is Potassiumchlorate and paraffin. They wrote it doesnt work with sodiumchlorate.


KClO3 ......solubility in water ....7,3g../100g H2O/ 20C
NaClO3......solubility in water 95g....../100g H2O/ 20C
In future can arise NaClO3 - water composition. With suitable fuels - water soluble.


Well, try to find some appropriate couple- chlorate (perchlorate) plus some organic solvent.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 14-4-2021 at 22:18

For NaClO4 exist diethyleneglycol. And ratios are NaClO4 74, DEG 26, H2O 9 - 11. Optional guar gum 0,2 - 1. In parts by weight. But with NaClO3 it not works....:cool:

caterpillar - 14-4-2021 at 22:43

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
For NaClO4 exist diethyleneglycol. And ratios are NaClO4 74, DEG 26, H2O 9 - 11. Optional guar gum 0,2 - 1. In parts by weight. But with NaClO3 it not works....:cool:

Does some similar couple with nitrate exist?

Laboratory of Liptakov - 14-4-2021 at 23:42

For years, on a theoretical level, they have been devoted to this issue. Within the possibilities for amateurs. NH4NO3 emulsions exist. But their preparation is basically impossible in amateur conditions.

caterpillar - 15-4-2021 at 04:44

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
For years, on a theoretical level, they have been devoted to this issue. Within the possibilities for amateurs. NH4NO3 emulsions exist. But their preparation is basically impossible in amateur conditions.

Oh, I meant some solution. No emulsion nor gel.

Pyro_cat - 15-4-2021 at 19:02

Potassium chlorate and 2 stoke motor oil just popped on the impact test, failed the flame test but the residue from the failed flame test was impact sensitive. I had too much oil in it. Did not measure but I could tell.

Kerosene has sulfur content. Not much today probably more back then.

KCLcoal - 16-4-2021 at 03:45

Miedziankit explosives are one of the easy-to-manufacture explosives for amateurs. The question is how to explode this. Detonators are difficult for individuals to manufacture and are dangerous because they handle sensitive triggering explosive. Therefore, we are thinking about whether it can be sealed and explosively burned inside the container like black powder.
Empty cans were filled with a mixture of KCLO3: kerosene = 9: 1. And I ignited with a fuse. At first, it only raised the flame peculiar to oil and burned gently. However, after 10 seconds, it burned violently like fireworks. (However, this burning rate is considerably slower than the mixture of KCLO3 and sugar.)
Even the composition of KCLO3 / kerosene may explode if a strong seal can be achieved by reinforcing the container with a wire. But I don't know if it will lead to detonation.

Alkoholvergiftung - 16-4-2021 at 04:10

Glycincopperchlorate would be an easy to make an "stable" detonator. If you have chlorates its only an small step.

[Edited on 16-4-2021 by Alkoholvergiftung]

C6(NO2)5CH2CH(CH3)N(NO2)2 - 23-4-2021 at 15:58

Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  
Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
For NaClO4 exist diethyleneglycol. And ratios are NaClO4 74, DEG 26, H2O 9 - 11. Optional guar gum 0,2 - 1. In parts by weight. But with NaClO3 it not works....:cool:

Does some similar couple with nitrate exist?


In the US there's a "Calcium Nitrate 15.5-0-0" fertilizer that's a co-crystal of 5 Ca(NO3)2.NH4NO3.10H2O. so about 76% calcium nitrate, 16.7% water, and 7.3% ammonia nitrate by mass. This composition can supposedly be liquified by about a quarter of its weight of methanol, according to US patent US3765967. I calculated this mixture has about 2.85kJ/gm of energy, but I'm not sure if it would really detonate, that patent didn't test it and mostly focused on sodium perchlorate solutions.

US patent 3899374 tests a variety of calcium nitrate compositions, but only a few of them have straight calcium nitrate or the co-crystal I mentioned above as the only oxidizer. They seemed to get detonation after mixing it with formamide, or with ethylene glycol, but then again they used around a 200gm charge with a 37gm pentolite booster. I don't know if these mixtures would actually propagate a detonation into a larger charge volume.

Anyhow, I haven't seen any report on the methanol mixture, and I have no way of testing it, but it might be worth a try. It should, in theory, be completely liquid and thus mixed at the molecular level

For chlorates, I wonder if Hexamine Ascorbate would be of any value. EnergeticHeretic/Tetrazolelover got a bang with sodium ascorbate, and Liptakov tried ascorbic acid with good results (until a charge self ignited that is)