Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Shipping the Impossible?

Shipping the Impossible?

jharmon12 - 20-3-2013 at 18:30

I have a 125 ML sample of red fuming nitric acid I want to send to a colleague. This material can be cut with water if necessary. I want to ship this, but my searches have shown that all forms of nitric acid, except that under 70%, is prohibited from shipment. Yet I see vendors, some of them very big, selling it on Ebay. Just go to Ebay and take a look. How are these people sending this material?

Their shipping method shows "UPS Ground", but this is impossible, as the table that UPS has on their website shows that nitric acid, 70% or above, is forbidden for shipment. I know these guys aren't breaking the rules or they would have been caught by now.

So does anyone here know the rule for shipping this material?

Thanks,

Joel

[Edited on 21-3-2013 by jharmon12]

bahamuth - 20-3-2013 at 18:47

Pack it real real good (the same way one gets thionyl chloride, in a polyethylene bag inside a wooden box stuffed hard with vermiculite) and have a fake return address, easy as that...

Or understate the concentration, nobody will ever find out, even if there is an accident (do you think they sample it after they spilled it on the floor?)

woelen - 21-3-2013 at 00:22

This is not the answer the OP asked about! :mad:

It is this kind of irresponsible attitude which makes home chemistry a bad thing in the eyes of many people. If you want to work with hazardous reactive stuff, then also be prepared to pay some extra money for other people's safety. Keep in mind that by this kind of behavior it is YOU who puts OTHERS at unacceptable risk. They do not know what they have in their hands and if something leaks or a fire occurs (which is possible with a combination of fuming nitric acid and paper or cardboard) then those people have no idea what happened and how they need to handle this.

There are guidelines for shipping all kinds of materials. IATA guidelines exist for shipping dangerous goods by air and ADR regulutions exist for shipping dangerous goods on road and by boat.

I myself ordered some 70% HNO3 last week and this was packaged and labeled according to ADR regulations. The shipper knows what's inside the package and knows how to handle it and deal with accidents (they are trained for that). And yes, ADR shipping is more expensive than normal shipping, but it is affordable. I had to pay just over EUR 20 for shipping one package with 2.5 liters of 98% H2SO4 and 2.5 liters of 70% HNO3 from the UK to the Netherlands. This could only be done by road and boat, no fast air-shipping, but still it worked out reasonably fast.

Even fuming acids, SOCl2, Br2 and that kind of stuff can be shipped, but you have to pay extra for the handling of these materials.

DHL is a possible shipper for hazardous goods and they work worldwide. Have a look at their website or visit one of their local offices.

[Edited on 21-3-13 by woelen]

jharmon12 - 21-3-2013 at 04:56

Has anyone one reading this ever shipped this stuff? If so, what did you do, in a nutshell, to comply.

Thanks to those who have answered so far. I hear what you are saying, woelen, but a hazmat box (DOT Box) just for something as innocuous as sulfur powder is $20. I would hate to think what they require for something like acid.

You have to remember that the United States is not a free country anymore. The people are so beaten down with regulations here that our original founding fathers would have started a war 10 times over if it were this bad when we were a British colony.

Joel

hissingnoise - 21-3-2013 at 05:19

Quote:

You have to remember that the United States is not a free country anymore.

You have to remember that the freedom to endanger others at will is hardly going to be a right any time soon . . .
I mean, why would anyone need to post RFNA?

bahamuth - 21-3-2013 at 06:01

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

This is not the answer the OP asked about! :mad:

OP said it was impossible to ship it, at least with his preferred/only shipper. If he made a wooden box as I suggested that is way better than most chemical companies ship stuff that is several magnitudes more hazardous than some RFNA and he would be within specs of the guidelines.

Anyways you are correct, but a forum is hardly a place to find guidelines for hazmat shipping and I was giving him a last resort option.

To stay on topic, Sigma A list this compound as toxic on two accounts, and an oxidizer on two accounts which means there is no way you can ship it without discussing it with the shipping company, whoever they may be if you want to follow protocol.

Also, why not save you the pain and dilute it as you mentioned that you could?
In addition, why would you need to ship this, when it is so easy to make with a simple distillation apparatus (the hazmat fee may very well pay half the cost of a small 14/20 setup alone..)?

Edit:
PS. Woelen, which shipper did you use to get it so cheap from the UK to the Netherlands? I had to pay around 100EUR+ for a liter of thionyl chloride, from Germany (I guess, that's where the storage is) to Norway.

[Edited on 21-3-2013 by bahamuth]

woelen - 21-3-2013 at 07:17

The shipper is DHL and it took 4 days to ship from the location in the UK to my home, which is quite well if you consider that it goes on road and boat. I think that this price is reasonable.

I agree that it should not be necessary to ship red fuming nitric acid. If you order normal acid of 65 ... 70% concentration and distill this with conc. sulphuric acid, then you can easily make it yourself.

[Edited on 21-3-13 by woelen]

watson.fawkes - 21-3-2013 at 07:41

Quote: Originally posted by jharmon12

Their shipping method shows "UPS Ground", but this is impossible, as the table that UPS has on their website shows that nitric acid, 70% or above, is forbidden for shipment. I know these guys aren't breaking the rules or they would have been caught by now.

"Would have been caught by now"? Why assume that?

IrC - 21-3-2013 at 07:49

Quote: Originally posted by bahamuth

Pack it real real good (the same way one gets thionyl chloride, in a polyethylene bag inside a wooden box stuffed hard with vermiculite) and have a fake return address, easy as that...

Or understate the concentration, nobody will ever find out, even if there is an accident (do you think they sample it after they spilled it on the floor?)

So you are the one burning up mail trucks with badly packaged Li or hydrides, or killing innocent workers with broken bottles of HF? A bottle of 49% thrown in a dumpster in New York killed a worker not that many years ago.

This is nothing short of evil.

ScienceSquirrel - 21-3-2013 at 08:07

Shipping to Norway is a lot more expensive.
My brewing supplier charges £10 to Jersey, £12 to the Netherlands, £14.50 to France and a whopping £31.50 to Norway for 30kg of nonhazardous malt from the UK.

blogfast25 - 21-3-2013 at 09:11

Quote: Originally posted by jharmon12

You have to remember that the United States is not a free country anymore.
Joel

Yeah, like that bloody prohibition on murder, it's just political correctness gone mad, innit!

bahamuth - 21-3-2013 at 10:43

Quote: Originally posted by IrC

Quote: Originally posted by bahamuth

You have to admit there is a difference between shipping something packaged so well that it would have to be run over by a truck to perhaps crack the bottle than dumping something in the dumpster outside. In my first post I figured that not the packaging would be an issue and that OP would package it as per protocols, just the shipping option with the shipping company was idiotic, as sending a bottle of RFNA (or any chemical) in a unprotected glass bottle is just to stupid to be considered..

Shipping to and from Norway is prohibitively expensive, I paid 100EUR+ in just the hazmat fee for a liter of thionyl chloride for Germany. If I were to send this to say Germany back I'd have to pay around 200-300EUR at least, plus a buttload of paperwork, if I even would have been able to send it due to it's poisonous nature, as poisons are illegal to own, buy, sell, or ship in Norway without special permits. I'd rather just package it good (as I got it from the supplier), put it in a cardboard box labeled "fragile/glass/this way up etc." and ship it away. If the shipping company then managed to break the content then they are at fault and most likely deserve a chemical burn. In case of a fire, all trucks are abandoned as the driver do not memorize a content manifest and the fire departement would care less if there was 125ml RFNA/1L thionyl chloride in there as it would matter nothing. I'd be more worried if someone shipped brunost.

@ ScienceSquirrel, that was cheap shipping, even the Norway one

DraconicAcid - 21-3-2013 at 10:49

Quote: Originally posted by bahamuth

I'd be more worried if someone shipped brunost.

Wow- that's some greasy cheese.

My Nynorsk/Bokmal is pretty dismal- does "brunost" actually translate to "burning cheese", or is it the more boring "brown cheese"?

Mailinmypocket - 21-3-2013 at 10:53

I was always under the impression that to ship hazardous materials you needed some sort of certification, as in having completed training in the proper packaging and compliance with regulations etc?

Btw: nobody "deserves" a chemical burn. At the end of the day they are trying to do their job and don't merit a chemical burn because some idiot didnt package something according to regulations. Even if it says "fragile" or "this way up". Accidents happen, injuries shouldn't.

[Edited on 21-3-2013 by Mailinmypocket]

ScienceSquirrel - 21-3-2013 at 10:58

They get huge discounts because they ship tons of stuff around.
I run a small brewery in Jersey at weekends and I ship bottles in a thousand at a time on a pallet from the midlands, £100 a shot.

IrC - 21-3-2013 at 11:40

bahamuth "You have to admit there is a difference between shipping something packaged so well that it would have to be run over by a truck to perhaps crack the bottle than dumping something in the dumpster outside"

I agree, and your right I was picking on you using far extreme comparisons. But I did have a good reason. You implied it is OK to hide what is being shipped. In fact were acting as a proponent of the idea as being permissible, as well a normal everyday practice. Yet any time a dangerous material is being moved the person doing the moving and all around them have a right to life and safety, a right to know exactly what is being handled. They have no way to know how safely the material has been packaged. They have no way to know what incompatible materials not to allow around it. Whether by air or more likely truck (or both), the chance of a wreck is ever present. Say a crappy seller sends a gallon of glycerin in a poor quality glass bottle in the same box with 5 pounds of potassium permanganate in a weak plastic bag. All the boxes in the 18 wheeler are crammed with Styrofoam peanuts in their packing, plenty of fuel there. He could even be hauling a few barrels of solvents as well you never know. The truck wrecks, turns over on its side and diesel is leaking all over the place while the unconscious driver never moves. Minutes later the broken glass bottle which tore open the bag becomes the focal point of massive fire. Even worse scenarios can and do occur and you knew this before you posted. As do we all. If the box was labeled sharp shippers would have refused it. Just as knowing pilots do not fly with a hundred pounds of Gallium unless some kind of special precautions were taken. Although I doubt that ever happens they likely refuse to fly the stuff. If a conscious driver had a proper manifest and climbed out of His wrecked truck to see fumes He might be able to save His life, and others including first responders by informing everyone of the leaking barrel (or whatever vessel) of 50 gallons of 49% or higher HF.

Every one here knows this is a proper way to see this and only a criminal would do as you had advised in your post and you know it. Lives could be lost, people could suffer injury for the rest of their short painful miserable lives which before the accident were so possibly full of hope. I also can say likely everyone here remembers at least reading about one of these examples or similar examples somewhere. Or surely can search and find one. If you cannot get it shipped properly and safely, find a way to make it, or do something else with your life. You quite possibly could be saving the life of others.

Lambda-Eyde - 21-3-2013 at 12:12

Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid

My Nynorsk/Bokmal is pretty dismal- does "brunost" actually translate to "burning cheese", or is it the more boring "brown cheese"?

I'm afraid it's the latter

If you're ever in Norway, you should try it. It's delicious!

DraconicAcid - 21-3-2013 at 12:15

Quote: Originally posted by Lambda-Eyde

Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid

My Nynorsk/Bokmal is pretty dismal- does "brunost" actually translate to "burning cheese", or is it the more boring "brown cheese"?

I'm afraid it's the latter

If you're ever in Norway, you should try it. It's delicious!

Is it anything like geitost? I was in Norway twenty years ago (boy, do I ever feel old now), and I can still remember the taste of that stuff. I think I'd rather try rakfisk.

Endimion17 - 21-3-2013 at 12:52

Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel

Shipping to Norway is a lot more expensive.
My brewing supplier charges £10 to Jersey, £12 to the Netherlands, £14.50 to France and a whopping £31.50 to Norway for 30kg of nonhazardous malt from the UK.

What are you talking about? That's cheap!

If I wanted to send 30 kilos of nonhazardous stuff to any of the mentioned countries, I'd have to pay almost £70... at least.

After all, it's 30 kilos we're talking about.

ScienceSquirrel - 21-3-2013 at 13:52

You are shipping kilos.
My suppliers are shipping tons so they get bulk rates.

jharmon12 - 22-3-2013 at 06:47

Very nice. So I get attacked for asking how to ship something properly, in case someone here has done this, so as to get some first-person advice. Then the thread turns into an argument over semantics that have nothing to do with the shipping requirements. I guess it is clear that no one knows how to ship this material in the US. And that's okay. I only asked in case someone knew first hand.

And to compare a question about shipping to "murder" is a pathetic straw man. Why would anyone need to "post" RFNA? Why would anyone need to ship anything dangerous? Well, I guess to get it from point "A" to point "B". RFNA is shipped all over the country in large quantities via traincar and ship. I would assume that someone would ship it via truck. I would think that there would be a provision to handle a 100 or so ML sample on a shipping truck. Why would anyone need a sports car for that matter? I suppose some of you on this site are against law abiding citizens owning firearms as well. I presumed wrong when I thought that people that had interests in inherently dangerous activities, generally speaking, were more libertarian in their beliefs (live and let live).

Thanks for those of you that tried to help. We can probably consider this conversation done and if a moderator wants to kill this thread, I would not be opposed.

Regards,

Joel

hissingnoise - 22-3-2013 at 07:02

Quote:

I am new here and wanted to introduce myself. My name is Joel and I have a 17 year background in fireworks manufacture on a hobbyist scale. I am a member of the Pyrotechnics Guild International and have won numerous rocket and aerial shell competitions. With that said, I just wanted to establish that I have exposure to energetic materials and hazardous substances. I don't want anyone to think I am a total "newb".

Don't act like one, then!

jharmon12 - 22-3-2013 at 08:48

Not knowing the shipping regulations, and how to find the answer to a very specific shipping regulation, on a very specific item, in the countless manuals which are provided online, does not make someone a newb. Apparently you do not know the answer to this question, and this is evidenced by your comment that didn't event take a swipe at answering the question. My introductory statement was made with the assertion that I have experience with chemicals and energetic materials. It is being used completely out of context here.

The question was asked in case someone here has done it. When I see that there are people shipping it on Ebay, it makes me wonder how it is being done. That is all there is to it.

If you take umbrage at my comment that the US is no longer free, we will have to agree to disagree. There are many people in this country that agree with me. Dare I say that majority, from what I have seen in the news and among random discussions heard anywhere from fish fries to restaurants and from churches to gun shows.

With that said, you calling me a "newb" doesn't get to the heart of the issue, and that is: How does someone ship nitric acid in full compliance with the shipping regulations?

Thanks,

Joel

watson.fawkes - 22-3-2013 at 09:00

Quote: Originally posted by jharmon12

With that said, you calling me a "newb" doesn't get to the heart of the issue, and that is: How does someone ship nitric acid in full compliance with the shipping regulations?

Ask the carrier. DHL: Guide to Shipping Dangerous Goods.

BromicAcid - 22-3-2013 at 15:32

Quote: Originally posted by jharmon12

Has anyone one reading this ever shipped this stuff?

Yes, I used to do this for a living. If you live in the USA what you need to comply with are the DOT regulations since this will be transported over the roadways. That being the case you should look at 49 CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) sections 100-185.

The quick and dirty of it is in sub section 172.101 which is the list of hazardous materials, there you will find the entry for "Nitric Acid, Red Fuming".

There are a number of special provisions listed but as a standard at my company we would use a poison pack for something of this nature. A poison pack essentially negates all the hazards associated with the material. This is done so long as the material in a container of the proper size for the poison pack and you have properly sealed it up. Provided you do this then you fall under the special permit exemptions then DOT says you don't need hazard labels. There is some more on exemptions here:

http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/hazardous/re...

However even if the DOT SP says you don't need the hazard labels, as far as I know common carriers like FedEx and UPS still require them internally.

Most of my shipments were through private carriers however we did work with FedEx and UPS. In those instances you couldn't ship anything without qulifying as a hazmat shipper. In the case of FedEx you needed a 40 hour hazmat course (hazwopper) before you could be approved for shipping and then only people on their approved list could sign off on the documents.

So, first off-

Proper packaging, you will likely need a poison pack, there are a number of companies that carry them, here is one example:

http://www.lpsind.com/DOTExemptPack.htm

Then you will need to become a approved shipper for hazardous materials with UPS, FedEx, or DHL. More information to be found here:

http://www.fedex.com/us/service-guide/our-services/dangerous...

Note that once you're approved you get a whole packet of information with step by step instructions to make everything super easy, even the proper CFR information was included with the FedEx packet.

Once you have the poison pack and are approved fill out the label and package the material. You will likely know more now that you've had the classes although most of it is on handling and donning/doffing PPE. Then it's as easy as calling the carrier and scheduling the pickup.

It sounds like a lot because it is to ship one or two things, but consider if you were approved, you keep several poison pack (all pack) boxes on hand and then you just pack and ship like anything else. It's getting your foot in the door where the issues arise.

blogfast25 - 23-3-2013 at 07:02

BA:

So what do these Exempt Packs retail for, roughly?

BromicAcid - 23-3-2013 at 08:27

My company would buy in bulk, we had a wall full of them for shipping off samples of hazardous waste (which amusingly enough could not legally be called waste to ship with a common carrier). Our price was around $8 each.

Endimion17 - 25-3-2013 at 13:33

I've done some search on regulations for several companies, including my national postal service. Two companies don't even mention it, the national postal service strictly forbids it by law, and DHL is ambiguous about it. First they say they're capable of shipping every kind of dangerous goods out there, and then they say they ship dry ice and samples of dangerous goods, and then they say it's forbidden to send anything flammable, corrosive, oxidizing, poisonous, infectious, radioactive, magnetic, as well as gases and medical waste. Oh, and ammunition, too.
I guess table salt is out of the question, too, as it's corrosive to metals.

So yeah... Now I have no idea how the hell my supplier manages to override all this bullshit, or how pharmacies obtain ethanol, or how colleges obtain just about anything. Maybe they lie about the contents of the package because it's cheaper to deal with the consequences of the highly unlikely events of something going wrong?