Sciencemadness Discussion Board

LiFO4

KonkreteRocketry - 7-2-2013 at 11:21

Since F > Cl > Br > Iodine

and F have a lesser weight, then LiFO4(71% O) will have a much higher oxygen content than LiClO4(60% O), and NH4ClO4(54%, NASA's rocket oxidizer) but LiFO4 info are so scarce and i can barely even find a title named LiClO4.

Any help please.

simply RED - 7-2-2013 at 11:49

You should go back in high school, fluorine does not form such compounds.

DraconicAcid - 7-2-2013 at 11:56

Information of lithium perfluorate is scarce because it doesn't exist. The only oxyacid of fluorine is hypofluoric acid, and it's not very stable (Cotton & Wilkinson, Advanced Inorganic Chemistry, 6th Ed., which does not mention any salts of fluorine-based oxyanions. Greenwood's Chemistry of the Elements says a little more about HOF, noting that it can decompose spontaneously at room temp with a half-life of 30 minutes, forming oxygen and HF (and only sometimes explodes).

AndersHoveland - 9-2-2013 at 23:28

There is tetrafluoroammonium perchlorate, NF4ClO4, although it appears to have an unusually high vapor pressure, possibly due to slight dissassociation into NF3 and FOClO3.

There are also nitroformates, C(NO2)3-, and tetranitratoborates, B(NO3)4-, both of which are quite stable, at least enough for use in propellents.

simply RED - 10-2-2013 at 01:20

Andres, can you systemize the information on nitroformates, C(NO2)3-, and tetranitratoborates, B(NO3)4- and post it here. It could be interesting.

woelen - 10-2-2013 at 12:03

Fluorine does not form any oxoanions, even the fleeting HOF hardly can be considered an oxo-acid of fluorine, it can better be regarded as a fluoro-compound of oxygen, with oxygen at oxidation state 0 in this compound and fluorine at its ordinary -1 oxidation state. A better name for this compound would be hydroxyl fluoride instead of hydrogen hypofluorite.

AndersHoveland - 24-2-2013 at 23:26

Quote: Originally posted by simply RED  
Andres, can you systemize the information on nitroformates, C(NO2)3-, and tetranitratoborates, B(NO3)4- and post it here. It could be interesting.

tetranitratoborates have already been mentioned in the Lithium Perchlorate LiClO4 thread:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=22790

I have already posted some information on nitroformates in "Hydrazinium Propellants" topic:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1721

although you might want to type "trinitromethane" or "nitroform" in the search function of this forum, since nitroformates are simply the salt of trinitromethane, produced when it reacts with a base.

Although nitroform is mostly a colorless liquid, nitroformate salts are bright yellow. Since tetranitratoborates contain boron, their deflagration will no doubt result in green flames.

KonkreteRocketry - 28-2-2013 at 23:02

Can we possibly try to make it ? There are some oxygen - flourine compounds like HFO and CF3OF and i also saw a report arguing CH3COOF exists, how can we overcome the problems of flourine's eletronegative problem ?

DraconicAcid - 28-2-2013 at 23:11

Quote: Originally posted by KonkreteRocketry  
Can we possibly try to make it ? There are some oxygen - flourine compounds like HFO and CF3OF and i also saw a report arguing CH3COOF exists, how can we overcome the problems of flourine's eletronegative problem ?


You can try, but I'll happily put money on you not succeeding. You see, to make fluorine have more than one bond, you are forcing fluorine to share its electrons with a less electronegative element. But fluorine doesn't share its electrons- it shares the electrons of other atoms (it's kinda like a banker that way- it will share your money, but not his own).

When chlorine forms HClO2, the chlorine has two lone pairs and two bonds to oxygen; this means that chlorine either has a formal positive charge (low electron density), or a double bond to one of the oxygens (depending on which bonding model you are using). Either one is fine, since chlorine has available d orbitals for the multiple bonding, as well as being less electronegative than oxygen (so it can deal with a positive formal charge). Fluorine, on the other hand, has neither- it has no d orbitals in valence shells, and it is much more electronegative than oxygen. So HFO2 isn't going to exist. HFO3 is even less likely. HFO4 is right out.

There are some compounds of oxygen and fluorine- as you mention, CF3OF, HOF, and F2O. All of these have fluorine atoms with only one bond to oxygen. You will not find an example of a fluorine with two bonds to oxygen.

KonkreteRocketry - 1-3-2013 at 01:21

Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  
Quote: Originally posted by KonkreteRocketry  
Can we possibly try to make it ? There are some oxygen - flourine compounds like HFO and CF3OF and i also saw a report arguing CH3COOF exists, how can we overcome the problems of flourine's eletronegative problem ?


You can try, but I'll happily put money on you not succeeding. You see, to make fluorine have more than one bond, you are forcing fluorine to share its electrons with a less electronegative element. But fluorine doesn't share its electrons- it shares the electrons of other atoms (it's kinda like a banker that way- it will share your money, but not his own).

When chlorine forms HClO2, the chlorine has two lone pairs and two bonds to oxygen; this means that chlorine either has a formal positive charge (low electron density), or a double bond to one of the oxygens (depending on which bonding model you are using). Either one is fine, since chlorine has available d orbitals for the multiple bonding, as well as being less electronegative than oxygen (so it can deal with a positive formal charge). Fluorine, on the other hand, has neither- it has no d orbitals in valence shells, and it is much more electronegative than oxygen. So HFO2 isn't going to exist. HFO3 is even less likely. HFO4 is right out.

There are some compounds of oxygen and fluorine- as you mention, CF3OF, HOF, and F2O. All of these have fluorine atoms with only one bond to oxygen. You will not find an example of a fluorine with two bonds to oxygen.


Can we bond O on to it self or to the H then ? like H=O_F_O=O=O

Since flourine and H2O make HFO like this with H2O bonds like H-O-H
F2 + H2O → HFO + HF

Does flourine react with HO3 with structure H-O-O-O-H
F2 + H2O3 → HFO3 + HF

Or with hydrogen peroxide with H_O-O_H
F2 H2O2 → HFO2 + HF

Is this possible ?