Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Steam Distill Juniperus virginiana Leaf

supnul - 14-1-2013 at 13:11

I gathered enough Juniperus virginiana leaf to fill a 1000ml RBF half way (no measurements in this process, just for the purpose of checking for ANY oil output) Distilled water was added to cover up plant material.

150C oil bath was raised to heat the RBF. Distillation started and what appeared to be just water came over nicely. the condenser never got terribly hot but i was not using ice or anything to cool the water further.

I did basically the same thing with Sassafras root bark and was capable of gathering a few ml of oil. When i was finished with the Juniper leaf i did not see the fogginess of the sassafras distillate or the oil easily seen floating on top (some on bottom in sassafras case.. for what ever reason).

Some questions i have are probably silly but i am very newb and trying to learn as much as possible as quickly as possible. There seems to never bee enough time in the day.

Should the leaf be altered in anyway ? perhaps this is retarded but i literally put raw leaf material in the flask unchopped nothing changed (other than removal from any stick that got pulled with it).

The leaf is sourced very locally by hand (my hands). I have spent much time attempting to identify it (which doesnt seem hard, but im also trying to see if anything else is very similar to it leaf wise, trunk bark wise .. so forth [upstate, NY] to prevent gathering of wrong leaf) i use only the mature leaf easily identifiable from leaf notching, trunk bark striping so forth.

I do miss the old Bee days. (i was a young tot then tho, how things have changed.. pre-9/11 times)

Vargouille - 14-1-2013 at 14:46

Not having any experience with Red Cedar leaves and steam distillation, I can only offer my advice for steam distillations in general. Finely dividing the raw material will assist in the codistillation of non-polar substances. The other videos of steam distillation of essential oils that I have seen don't bother with this step, but it would be helpful.

However, this report on Eastern Red Cedar oil appears to use the heartwood as the raw material. Could be important, could be coincidental.

Magpie - 14-1-2013 at 16:35

I have also distilled some juniper fronds from my backyard, using live steam, as a school exercise. I charged 20g of fronds pulverized with a Waring blender. I extracted the 125mL of distillate with 3x20mL of dichloromethane. Dryed the extract w/Na2SO4 then reduced the volume to ~2mL on a Rotovap. This was run on a GC-MS which showed that thujone, camphor, wintergreen, bornyl acetate, 3-carvene, a bicyclic hydroxy, a phenanthrene derivative, and a norkaurene derivative were present, among others. I still have this extract and enjoy sniffing it once in a while. ;)

AAAmateur - 16-1-2013 at 18:10

"This was run on a GC-MS which showed that thujone, camphor, wintergreen, bornyl acetate, 3-carvene, a bicyclic hydroxy, a phenanthrene derivative, and a norkaurene derivative were present, among others."

Okay so you ran this on a GCMS and how did you determine that your peaks were of said substances did you run them all separately and compare retention times? With the fragmentation on the MS did you have a "library" of fragmentation patterns? I'm not calling you a liar I just don't see any science in what you say.:o

Magpie - 16-1-2013 at 18:43

AcqMethod JUNIPER1 and database NBS75K.L are indicated on the graphs which show the "time vs. abundance" of various components. These components are listed by name on the printout. That's all I can tell you.

Does this indicate a library for Juniper was used? Maybe someone here can tell.

crazyboy - 16-1-2013 at 19:27

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
AcqMethod JUNIPER1 and database NBS75K.L are indicated on the graphs which show the "time vs. abundance" of various components. These components are listed by name on the printout. That's all I can tell you.

Does this indicate a library for Juniper was used? Maybe someone here can tell.


Yes, the software NBS75K.L is a package containing the NIST mass spectra library.
Quote:

Okay so you ran this on a GCMS and how did you determine that your peaks were of said substances did you run them all separately and compare retention times? With the fragmentation on the MS did you have a "library" of fragmentation patterns? I'm not calling you a liar I just don't see any science in what you say.


AAAmateur, it seems you have a rather limited understanding of modern GC/MS machines. Modern GC/MS are often packaged with software which that allows extensive manipulation and analysis of data such as peak integration. They often include spectral libraries and preprogrammed GC programs for certain types of compounds.

AAAmateur - 17-1-2013 at 17:01

Crazyboy=>" They often include spectral libraries and preprogrammed GC programs for certain types of compounds."

Thanks for the info; but I'm asking Magpie the question and not supnul.......I want to know what he used for identification of the compounds he found in his steam extraction..which software etc. etc.

Magpie => This was run on a GC-MS which showed that thujone, camphor, wintergreen, bornyl acetate, 3-carvene, a bicyclic hydroxy, a phenanthrene derivative, and a norkaurene derivative were present, among others.

Magpie - 17-1-2013 at 20:21

Quote: Originally posted by AAAmateur  
......I want to know what he used for identification of the compounds he found in his steam extraction..which software etc. etc.


The first printout (graph) showed the GC results as a series of peaks giving "abundance" vs time. This was aquired by "AcgMethod JUNIPER1." Somehow I was able to attribute the peaks to chemical constituents. I can't remember how this was done; it was 8 years ago.

Then there were several pages of MS printout (graph) of "abundance" vs "m/z." m/z I take as the weight of the specie in amu. The first specie identified was thujone. Page (scan) 2 identified bornyl acetate. etc, etc. The "Library searched was: C:\DATABASE\NBS75K.L.

The instrument used was a Hewlett Packard 5890 (5971 mass selective detector, 5890A gas chromatograph, 59822B ionization guage controller).

JUNIPER1 was also used for analysis of sage oil, which contained camphor, eucalyptol, and wintergreen, among others.

I know very little about the use of GC-MS. Am I answering what you want to know?

Edit: I see now that the GC and MS must be linked with "time." Surely, we have experts here who can tell me.



[Edited on 18-1-2013 by Magpie]

AAAmateur - 17-1-2013 at 21:02

""Library searched was: C:\DATABASE\NBS75K.L"

Yea you see I am just as of recently put in a position where I am screening for various contaminants in raw materials using a GCMS and when I get these "peaks" off the GC column I can use software to go back and look at how these peaks fragmented in the MS in turn I can look up those fragments or group of fragments in an internal library and get an idea of what molecule it was.....naturally I have tested it and it is not hardly ever right; but I know our library is the "cheap" library and doesn't contain as much mass fragmentation data as it could.

So back to my original question how and where did you get access to that library that you used? Were you at work or school or something? Is this some universal library anybody can use with access to the net? Sorry to be so intrusive just wanting some info.:P

Magpie - 17-1-2013 at 21:14

Quote: Originally posted by AAAmateur  

So back to my original question how and where did you get access to that library that you used? Were you at work or school or something? Is this some universal library anybody can use with access to the net? Sorry to be so intrusive just wanting some info.:P


This was at school. The appropriate software apparently was already on the machine. The school was doing a lot of research on natural materials, specifically coniferous plants. If you like I can U2U some more specific information.

watson.fawkes - 17-1-2013 at 21:18

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
Then there were several pages of MS printout (graph) of "abundance" vs "m/z." m/z I take as the weight of the specie in amu.
m/z is the mass-to-charge ratio. The 'Z' is more usually capitalized and seen as the proton number. In a mass spectrometer it's the ionization number.

AAAmateur - 17-1-2013 at 22:32

"In a mass spectrometer it's the ionization number."

Ok,what does this mean I am currently trying to figure out the machine I am operating. Thermo brand Focus GC in front of a Thermo brand ISQ. Anyways I am trying to figure out that abundance m/z thing. So when I get a mass spec chart with relative abundance on the y axis and m/z on the bottom what does a column that reaches up to lets say 108.2 @80% relative abundance mean if there are other columns that are 109.7, 133.3, and so on that also are up around 60-80% relative abundance why don't they equal 100% abundance? Mayb e you can help me figure these questions out.

chemrox - 18-1-2013 at 00:52

You should research your plant as much as possible. Then research the technique. The way you've approached steam distillation is not very efficient. The material in the leaves may be water soluble or of negligible quantity. It would be a good idea to extract a small quantity with a soxhlet apparatus (ebay) and check by TLC. On your safrole extraction you didn't say waht quantity you started with. Are you a machinist? You could make or have made a really efficient critical fluid extractor that uses butane or propane. No workup required!

SM2 - 18-1-2013 at 09:11

supnel, I sure hope this is not old growth cedar/juniper. The reason a steam distillation is not working for you, is that the oils are locked up in those thick evergreen leaves. Your best bet would be to freeze your leaves with a small amount of table salt, and once they are partially thawed, homogenize your leaf product on highest setting using an Osterizer, or whatever you have access to. This will ensure that most of the essential oil gets fully separated from the cellular leaves. Can not stress how important it is to homogenize tour leaf product when it is barely thawed. Then proceed with your steam distillation. Damn, I wish I had a used/cheap HP GC, then you would be able to verify the thujone and camphor components quite easily. New, a gas chromatograph will set you you in the mulit thousands. Don't forget proper column (usually they are composed of glass or a poly-imide. The column is very long, and very thin, and most of it is wounded by the heating element in the GC. When your unknown compound elutes (mumbo jumbo for your unknown leaving the column) and on to the PMT, you compare known,with a manual which pu envelopes with the envelope you have. There is so much more you can do. Basically, if everything goes according to plan, your GC will draw it's own envelope, and it is your job to compare published envelopes against your own machine until you hit that dead ringer. Once you have a perfect match it has to be identical, there is a fairly good confidence of what your compound is. Especially if you already have a grounded hunch. Oh, and don't forget, you will need a tank of nitrogen or helium as a noble gas to carry your samples through the column (I simply call this, make up air). Pretty neet, eh? The flame burns your compound, and the relatively small amount of signature photons is magnified many times over. The detector component is almost identical to a 2nd generation of nite vision goggles, and will be used to draw the shape. If you need further assistance, a quadrupole MS is probable the ultimate in surety detections. Often, the hugely expensive mass spectrometer will be attached to he tail end of the GC, and viola, you will have your results with near %999 confidence.









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watson.fawkes - 18-1-2013 at 11:43

Quote: Originally posted by AAAmateur  
So when I get a mass spec chart with relative abundance on the y axis and m/z on the bottom what does a column that reaches up to lets say 108.2 @80% relative abundance mean if there are other columns that are 109.7, 133.3, and so on that also are up around 60-80% relative abundance why don't they equal 100% abundance?
It's a relative abundance, not an absolute abundance.

Perhaps this link will help.

AAAmateur - 18-1-2013 at 18:33

"Clever Girl" -Jurassic Park :)