Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Marked by chemistry

Marked by chemistry

plante1999 - 27-12-2012 at 19:57

This story happened the 25 December 2012.

I was trying to make iodic acid from iodine. The usual procedure use nitric acid but the second Brauer one use hydrogen peroxide and less nitric acid. As it as taken me 36 h to make the nitric acid I had, I didn't wanted to use much of it so I decided to used second Brauer prep. being cheap on the nitric. I was fallowing most of the Brauer prep. but to be safe I used an ice bath when mixing the two reagent. The nitric acid was yellow and the hydrogen peroxide was home- concentrated. I had two layers of cloth and goggles on as well as heavy nitrile gloves. I mixed 10 ml H2O2 with 20 ml HNO3, very shortly after a rocket like reaction took place and I got mist and droplets on my face. I trowed my goggles and my gloves, and run to the tap water source and washed my face for about 5 minutes then I took my leftover sodium bicarbonate and put it everywhere on my work-space asd well as ten liter of water. My gloves studently catched fire on the ground, but I didn't care and runned inside to take a shower. When I looked in the mirror before the shower I had about 1/3 of the face covered with white and yellow burn. I took a shower and then I looked again in the miror and foun only few remaining spot, most on the rigth side of the mouth, some very close to my rigth eye and some few cm under my left eye. Few hour later the burn where blood red, I had some pink spot, some purle spot and some blood red and yellow spot.

The yellow/ blood red one are very deep and will probably lets there mark for my life, there is two burn like these one on my face, the one under the left eye and the big few inch one near my mouth. The skin near my mouth look like if it was melted. They look terrible.

The moral is that you should know the reagent you are working on, and that theoretical is NOT practical, it was the second time I worked with nitric and first with conc. peroxide. I think an impurity was present in the nitric acid which catalyzed hydrogen peroxide fast decomposition making mist of nitric acid and peroxide. The impurity may even be nitrogen oxides.

FAQ:
Q: Will you continue chemistry?
A: Yes of course, it is the only thing I know/Like

Q: Does your father ask you to stop chemistry?
A: No, he is very comprehensiveness and say he did took danger when he was yougn.

Q: Does it hurt?
A: Not at all.

Q: What will you do now?
A: Continue to do chemistry, albeit more safely. I cannot not accept having life time scars.

Oscilllator - 27-12-2012 at 20:21

Now I know never to mix DIY nitric acid with hydrogen peroxide. Thanks.

BTW, I really think we need a sticky where people can post all the things you shouldn't do, such as this. It should probably go in energetic materials.

EDIT: Oh, and how did you concentrate your hydrogen peroxide?

[Edited on 28-12-2012 by Oscilllator]

elementcollector1 - 27-12-2012 at 20:24

I'm sorry to hear that. Is it really going to be a permanent wound?
I had a burn from a combination of bromine/sulfuric acid (oddly analogous to your nitric/iodine mix), which at first stained my skin gray, then brown, and now it's the usual red. It seems to be well on track to healing, despite its initial horrific looks.

plante1999 - 27-12-2012 at 20:39

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1

I'm sorry to hear that. Is it really going to be a permanent wound?

The deep one will probably be permanent, softer pink one will probably heal fast. Face skin is not like hand one.

This thread does not deserve energetic at all. Sticky could help other peoples tough.

Oscilllator - 27-12-2012 at 21:17

Quote: Originally posted by plante1999

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1

I'm sorry to hear that. Is it really going to be a permanent wound?

I wasn't saying that this thread in particular should go in energetic materials. Rather I was suggesting that the sticky of what not to do should go there, because most mishaps in chemistry occur around energetic materials

kristofvagyok - 28-12-2012 at 02:26

Sorry to hear this accident, hope you will recover soon.

First what should be noted is: chemistry is dangerous, it can and it will cause accidents the only thing what could be done is to minimalize the chance and the damage what is caused by them.

Working with cc. HNO3 always require special protection, especially if it is over 95% or it it mixed with H2O2. The nitrile gloves won't do anything, you were lucky that it didn't burned in your hand. Always use butyl rubber gloves and a face shield, not goggles... Similarly as here:

The second thing what should be noted: H2O2 is often stabilized with organic compounds what reacts with ccHNO3 readily, so always test it with small amounts before pouring the two reagent together.

And the third: I've made HIO3 long ago and it was an easy reaction. I used recipe similar to Bauer method no.1 with the excess HNO3 and just traces of H2O2. It works well, it is not that dangerous and as I remember just drops of H2O2 is needed if the reaction slows down...

hyfalcon - 28-12-2012 at 03:06

I was thinking dropping a quantity of concentrated H2O2 into HNO3 would be a bad idea anyway. Drop by drop additions on anything involving mineral acids and peroxides is the only way to proceed. You may luck out on the burns though. A year from now you may have a hard time even seeing where those burns are.

plante1999 - 28-12-2012 at 04:36

@Oscillator

You can look on my website for more information on my hydrogen peroxide concentration procedure.

@Kristofvagyok

I will rather use neoprene now, as I can't find butyl one. Yes face shield would be nice, but I already want to buy a lab coat and neoprene/butyl ruber gloves, I don't have the mean of a commercial lab if you get what I mean.

@Hyfalcon
I hope they will heal that fast, but they are very deep and I think it will take more than a year to disappear. The skin look like if as melted...

Vargouille - 28-12-2012 at 04:39

The yellow burn sounds like a nitric acid burn, I've had one myself, and it went away within a week. Hopefully it'll all get better, Plante.

Endimion17 - 28-12-2012 at 06:27

Before production, always make an experiment with small quantities. You never know what kind of impurities are inside which can react vigorously.

Face shield is a must when working with larger quantities of corrosives.

Use that silver creme and try not to expose yourself to rain and dirt. If there's blood, that's third degree burn and it should take a while for the skin to recover. You'll end up with a longlasting or permanent scar, but using Ag-sulphadiazine reduces scars cause they're not just caused by the initial damage, but by bacteria, too.
Go to your doctor or ER and say you've been working with hydrochloric acid and peroxide mix. It's perfectly legal and very similar to the stuff you've made. It's not like there are potential lethal outcomes like with WP. Just lie and grab that creme as soon as possible.

blogfast25 - 28-12-2012 at 09:02

I wish you a speedy and full recovery.

I also hope that this will make you think twice about the safety precautions needed for working with F2!

Contact me when you're ready...

woelen - 28-12-2012 at 09:43

I am sad to read that this has happened to you. At the same time I think it is very good that you post this on sciencemadness. It is a warning for others and it helps yourself putting all things in perspective.

I hope that you will have fast recovery and that in the long run the scars will hardly be visible (if any at all). Also very good that you stick to chemistry, but please, be even more careful than you already were.

Endimion17 - 28-12-2012 at 09:51

Q: Does it hurt?
A: Not at all.

That's third degree allright. Damaged nervous tissue.

Expect tingling and pain when they start growing again.
Have you got the creme already?

plante1999 - 28-12-2012 at 12:40

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

I am sad to read that this has happened to you. At the same time I think it is very good that you post this on sciencemadness. It is a warning for others and it helps yourself putting all things in perspective.

I hope that you will have fast recovery and that in the long run the scars will hardly be visible (if any at all). Also very good that you stick to chemistry, but please, be even more careful than you already were.

It was what I thought when I putted it on SM, the objective is to prevent others. It is really not fun to have burned face and difficulty laughing at things because your skin don't move.

Thanks everyone for your comment, I appreciate it, I would have put a picture, but as some may know I do not have a camera.

I do think without creme, I guess I could make some...

I may have expressed myself wrongly, the deep burn are yellow and blood red at the same time, the color faded to dried blood color now.

@Blogfast

You got a U2U.

Poppy - 28-12-2012 at 12:41

Lust, sounds like "careful addition of conc. H2SO4 to hot conc. NaOH" and then bring your beaker and slowly try not to be killed.
Mineral acid are all badasses. Except for highschool chemistry everything seems to involve uncontrollable smokes and fire when dealing with any concentrate.

hyfalcon - 28-12-2012 at 16:11

Quote: Originally posted by Endimion17

Before production, always make an experiment with small quantities. You never know what kind of impurities are inside which can react vigorously.

Face shield is a must when working with larger quantities of corrosives.

Use that silver creme and try not to expose yourself to rain and dirt. If there's blood, that's third degree burn and it should take a while for the skin to recover. You'll end up with a longlasting or permanent scar, but using Ag-sulphadiazine reduces scars cause they're not just caused by the initial damage, but by bacteria, too.
Go to your doctor or ER and say you've been working with hydrochloric acid and peroxide mix. It's perfectly legal and very similar to the stuff you've made. It's not like there are potential lethal outcomes like with WP. Just lie and grab that creme as soon as possible.

That's good stuff for skin burns of any kind.

cyanureeves - 28-12-2012 at 16:57

believe me acne scars are even worse i've had them all my life and you can at least say they are chemical burns but i was always accused of having hairy palms.i was always like huh? dont you? and you? for sure you!no? but why not? i should've known that everything in my life is just about me. thanks for being my tutor when sciencemadness is down and i will sure as hell concentrate my own peroxide and will add it to nitric too.... i will be covered from head to toe of course.that peroxide method you do is simply awesome and now i will be able to do that amythist color iron crystal thing.

Oscilllator - 28-12-2012 at 18:51

Thanks for the method on concentrating hydrogen peroxide! I'd heard people talk about that method before but have never had any evidence that it worked.

plante1999 - 29-12-2012 at 07:30

You are welcome for the method of concentrating H2O2. If you have compound synthesis you want me to write down or experiment, please ask. I'm more entertained to write when people ask!

Now my burns start to cicatrize and they hurt.

Yes I will be more careful, especially for fluorine...

Does neoprene is as good or superior to butyl gloves?

Fantasma4500 - 29-12-2012 at 08:07

Not stopping chemistry, thats the spirit!

i would of said you should have tried mixing smaller amounts at first to see how it would act, but already 30 mL in total isnt much..

im sure i wouldnt stop chemistry if some accident happened to me, i would do the same, and be better prepared another time..

Hope you will heal without that many permanent marks..

plante1999 - 29-12-2012 at 14:47

Yes I don't stop chemistry but I must think about how I will do things now.

I took webcam pictures, there is many spot we CANT see on these pictures. I had a "baby" skin, so each spot you see is a burn. Like I said in the original post, at the beginning I had 1/3 of the face burned but readily the majority of the burn disappeared fast. These are the remaining spot, there many spot you can't see but the main is in the right orbit, under the nose, in one in the right ear one in the right nozil, one on my right face side. Burn are 1 to 2 mm deep and the one under my left eye is 3 mm deep. I look somewhat like "the terminator" after a fight because of the deep burns.

I don't know if it is something ask-able but I do think this thread need to be sticky.

[Edited on 29-12-2012 by plante1999]

neptunium - 29-12-2012 at 15:01

so thats why you didnt answer your email!! lol
well i am glad your ok and these spots on your face should disapear in a few days ...
i had a hole in my arm made by HN03 and hot sulfuric acid...it looked gruesome but was small and went away in a week or two..

plante1999 - 29-12-2012 at 15:05

I don't think they will disappear, they will left mark... The skin look like melted and the burn are mostly 2 mm deep.

Send me back the email and I will answer it!

Vargouille - 29-12-2012 at 16:04

The human body is surprisingly resilient. Those white hydrogen peroxide burns went away pretty quickly, as did the yellow nitric acid burns. Given enough time, you'll be fit as a fiddle, 'pon me life.

plante1999 - 29-12-2012 at 18:13

I hope you are right. Anyway I have heavy swelling near my wound, what should I do for it?

cyanureeves - 29-12-2012 at 18:23

geesh dear boy you do have swelling. how about ice? and some NSAIDS. dont be too proud to go to a minor emergency clinic.

[Edited on 12-30-2012 by cyanureeves]

kristofvagyok - 30-12-2012 at 04:53

That aint looks so bad, I thought that it is much-much worse. It will recover soon.

P.S.: You are lucky, get a face shield as soon as possible.

Vargouille - 30-12-2012 at 04:56

I'll second Cyanu's suggestion. It's been a long time since I wanted to be a doctor, and even then I didn't know many medicines. Endimion recommended silver sulfadiazine, and from a quick glance, it looks good. Typically you need a prescription for it, but if you're lucky, you might be able to find it OTC as "SilvaSorb" in a tube. If you can't find it, or even if you can find it, you'll probably have to go see the doctor.

Eddygp - 30-12-2012 at 05:59

Or synthesize it

Endimion17 - 30-12-2012 at 07:27

It's hard to tell from these photos, but if the wounds were actually bleeding, that's a third degree, no doubt. Small surface 3rd degree burns can heal without intensive medical care (large surfaces kill) but we're not talking about saving your life, but your aesthetics, your face features.

The magnitude of a scar increases with the bacterial growth, and the greater the degree, the more bacteria come to feast on your flesh. Your immune system can't do much about it because surface areas aren't exactly easy to reach by your white blood cells, that's why you have to deal with it.
Ag-sulphadiazine will kill the bacteria present and keep the wound aseptic if you keep it covered. There'll be a lot of goo and probably pus, your wounds might get wetter than before and might heal somewhat slower, but at least the scars from bacteria won't be present. Also, the pain when the nerves start growing again won't be that great.

I urge you to go to the ER/doctor and ask for the medication as soon as possible. Lying about printed circuit board cleaning works.
If you start with the medication you've got nothing to lose. If you don't, you'll end up with scars that change colour from pink to purple. Do you really want that? I've got such scar, but at least it's only one, and it's not on my face.

plante1999, I see you're from Québec. Canadian health care, AFAIK, is pretty much free. So use it, FFS.

blogfast25 - 30-12-2012 at 08:04

Plante, you really need to see a doctor, if you haven't already: there are so many treatments out there you wouldn't believe it. I've just been treated for something I've been suffering with for weeks (not chemistry related), believing there was no cure for it but time itself, and just two treatments have already made a world of difference.

The_Davster - 30-12-2012 at 09:22

FWIW: I had a couple small acid burns on my face from a sulfuric acid mishap years ago. They were black too. There was a scar for a year or so, but now it has totally healed.

plante1999 - 31-12-2012 at 15:06

I bought one face shield, one set of neoprene glove and now I need a lab coat, sadly enough this year I will have much saffety guear but no chemicals, I already lack of many of them and I'm out of stock of many of them too. I guess I will safely watch my microscale set

plante1999 - 14-1-2013 at 16:51

The burn is now healthier, I do believe now I wont be scared, at least not for long. The burn are pink and slightly swollen. But they look healthy.

I do warn everyone tough, know the stuff you work with, and theoretical is not practical.

Random - 14-1-2013 at 17:01

Quote: Originally posted by plante1999

The burn is now healthier, I do believe now I wont be scared, at least not for long. The burn are pink and slightly swollen. But they look healthy.

I do warn everyone tough, know the stuff you work with, and theoretical is not practical.

Nice to see that you are recovering well.

Next time remember to use a face shield

plante1999 - 4-2-2013 at 18:44

Her my burns after about a month and half:

<img src="http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g469/plante1999/DSC00043_zps080f322b.jpg" width="600" />

I take the opportunity to tell that I just go a camera this week-end, and that in my next works, picture will be included.

[<a href="u2u.php?action=send&username=bfesser">bfesser</a>: reduced image size(s)]

[Edited on 1.11.13 by bfesser]

elementcollector1 - 4-2-2013 at 19:35

Well, at any rate, it seems to be clearing up...

CaliusOptimus - 4-2-2013 at 23:41

Oooo that's not fun. I have a picture on my hard drive of a member here who had conc. HNO3 splashed in his face. I keep it as a safety reminder, and also to show my friends who've been interested in nitric for precious metal recovery. Along with dripping some WFNA on nitrile gloves makes for a good safety demo.

AFAIK he healed well.

Endimion17 - 5-2-2013 at 00:09

Looks like you're going to have those scars for a long time. Those were partial third degree burns and the discoloration is probably permanent as my WP wound. Get used to it. If someone asks about it, say you're the son of Two-Face from Batman.

bahamuth - 5-2-2013 at 00:20

You'll heal up nicely, may last a year or two though.

I myself got a couple of lead fragments in my face, one large (about 2mm) lodged in the skin right under my eye due to stupidity (disarming a dud with a drill......

) when I was 18 or so. They didn't dare to cut it out at the hospital without a facial surgeon e.g. plastic surgeon due to all the nerves running in that area. Still got a greenish spot of encapsulated lead under my eye over ten years later...

Anyways, there is an article somewhere on this forum about face protection, where they make a "thiocyanate bomb" of a pressurized round bottom flask and some paper mache faces soaked in potassium ferrocyanide IIRC, and protected by different safety gear. After detonation of the "bomb" on e could see where spatter and such hit the faces and which gear protected the different parts etc. IIRC only a combination of good goggles and a big faceshield were adequate. Can't seem to find it though...

GammaFunction - 5-2-2013 at 14:41

Quote: Originally posted by plante1999

I don't think they will disappear, they will left mark... The skin look like melted and the burn are mostly 2 mm deep.

I had considerably nastier burns in my younger days, and they went away, after about three years.

Still, perhaps a face shield should be the first purchase anyone makes, before any glassware.

[Edited on 5-2-2013 by GammaFunction]

Xenon1898 - 8-2-2013 at 13:46

plante - I just read this post now, very sorry to see your accident. I am glad you purchased some safety gear, that will come in handy for many years to come.

Good medical treatment can make a big different if you think scarring will occur. Years ago I had a bad burn on my face from my nose (inside nostrils) straight across both cheecks to and including my ear lobes, down my face, mouth and neck, left side of chest and left shoulder, and back of my left hand. The blisters on the back of each finger were thicker than the fingers were. Parts of the burn were quite deep. I would have had bad scarring if I didn't go to a burn center for a couple weeks every day. The treatment? Amazingly painful - sitting in a bath with mild chlorine bleach and scrubbing the burns to remove the developing skin! The face required shaving the facial hair right on the burn so it didn't get infected with hair. Your situation is probably different, but the point is if you are worried about scarring you should see a doctor. Oh, and wait a long time until you let very much sunlight on the burned area, the new skin may take some time to come in.

One thing that helps scars to heal is a cream made from comfrey leaves, they contain allantoin that helps healing. It is probably one of the most scientifically well documented herbs for healing tissues (external use only recommended).

Nitrous2000 - 1-11-2013 at 07:18

Be careful about the free advice you get on a website. The science of wound healing is more complex than "if there was bleeding, it must have been third degree". Third degree burns relate to degree of tissue damage and depth. Bleeding doesn't usually occur until the tissue is debrided or the scab is picked.

Chemical burns are similar but very different than thermal burns. Keloid scarring is also a potential. The red color with a nitric acid burn can persist a lifetime.

Go to your family doctor (it is way to late for "urgent care") and discuss this with them. Tell them it was a nitric acid burn. Again, it is important to tell the doctor what acid, not just that it was an acid. Sulphuric Acid and Hydrochloric acid cause quite different burns than nitric acid.

Your doctor will likely refer you to plastic surgery/burn specialist for an opinion. It's your face. Having a significant scar on your face is something you should take seriously.

Good lesson to be learned here. Be thankful you didn't bet splashed in the eye(s).

Nitrous

[Edited on 1-11-2013 by Nitrous2000]

[<a href="u2u.php?action=send&username=bfesser">bfesser</a>: removed quote of image]

[Edited on 1.11.13 by bfesser]

plante1999 - 1-11-2013 at 08:13

Now, the burns color are much closer to surounding skin, and I believe in a few years everything will be alright.

Would you mind explaining me the difference betwen sulphuric, hydrochloric and nitric acid. Even if I know quite a bit in chmistry, my medicine knowledge is very limited.

Thanks

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 1-11-2013 at 09:05

Wow!! I hope you recover from your scars,

I am in a football team and often I would get small injouries, to prepare and recover asap, our team provides a cream that make you recover asap. I dont know about medicine or how it works, but it works literally amazing for me. I have a bruise, apply for 2 days and it is completely gone.

I am not sure if it helps with acid burns, but you might want to try it.

http://www.auriga-int.com/en/auriderm-xo-cream

Pyro - 1-11-2013 at 09:19

If we want to go down that road, http://www.drugs.com/drp/biafine-topical-emulsion.html
I once burnt the palm of my hand with an orange hot piece of steel I was trying to work with, I lathered that stuff on and by the next morning there was a faint pink line that was barely sensitive.

Nitrous2000 - 1-11-2013 at 10:03

Quote: Originally posted by plante1999

Now, the burns color are much closer to surounding skin, and I believe in a few years everything will be alright.

Would you mind explaining me the difference betwen sulphuric, hydrochloric and nitric acid. Even if I know quite a bit in chmistry, my medicine knowledge is very limited.

Thanks

Your site is listed as "unpublished".
I'm glad the skin seems to be returning to normal.
You might pay attention to how the skin reacts when your skin gets cold or very warm (as in a warm bath or going out in the cold). It may behave in a peculiar way (turn red) for quite some time.

A quick search on google should help clarify the nature of thermal vs chemical burns. (And in particular, the dehydrating effects of sulphuric acid vs the protein denaturing effects of nitric acid)

subsecret - 1-11-2013 at 15:37

Sorry about the accident, I hope you heal well.

@Oscillator:

I don't think that the "What Shouldn't Be Done" section should be put under energetic materials... You're implying that EM's are ALWAYS dangerous, and that's not true. It might be squeezed under "Special Topics."

testimento - 1-11-2013 at 23:56

Wow, I've never considered HNO3 more than a substance "be careful", like 2 from 4 of hazard factor, mostly I've worried how to store it at 99% conc. in larger amounts. But anyway I always wear full face gas mask when working with fuming stuff, let it be HNO3, ammonia, HCl or even some milder stuff, because I don't want to turn my head every time I want to breath and it gives me more convenient working.

Velzee - 22-8-2017 at 01:40

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

I also hope that this will make you think twice about the safety precautions needed for working with F2!

Contact me when you're ready...

I'm ready