Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Phenolphthalein ( 3,3-bis(4-hydroxyphenyl)isobenzofuran-1(3H)-one ), h2so4 and h2o2

crapper - 3-12-2012 at 23:58

Hi all,

I work in a lab. Just a small fry. Was tasked to get rid of 3,3-bis(4-hydroxyphenyl)isobenzofuran-1(3H)-one.

I put it in 98% h2so4 and 35% h2o2, in small amounts, till the solution was a clear yellow. 5 g of indicator was reacted at any one time.

Anyone done this before?
Any chance of there being hydroquinone, or salicylic acid inside?

Btw the resulting mixture was diluted with water, neutralised with bicarb, then finally put in plastic containers for disposal.

[Edited on 4-12-2012 by crapper]

[Edited on 5-12-2012 by ScienceSquirrel]

kristofvagyok - 4-12-2012 at 04:47

A cheaper and better idea: dilute it with a lot water and pour it down to sink.

Why did you did such a long, expensive and unnecessary disposal for a non toxic chemical like that?

sparkgap - 4-12-2012 at 14:09

Just how much did you have, anyway? Small amounts can be flushed into the sink.

sparky (~_~)

[Edited on 5-12-2012 by sparkgap]

ScienceSquirrel - 4-12-2012 at 14:49

Once upon a time it was a common laxative and kilos of it must have ended up down the local sewage farm mixed with thousands of tons of other crap.

crapper - 4-12-2012 at 15:23

Quote: Originally posted by kristofvagyok  
A cheaper and better idea: dilute it with a lot water and pour it down to sink.

Why did you did such a long, expensive and unnecessary disposal for a non toxic chemical like that?


Some higher power said it was an evil carcinogenic compound, so I was slightly depressed.

Therefore, I wanted to give it a worthy send off.
Quote: Originally posted by sparkgap  
For the uninitiated or confounded by the long-ass IUPAC name: OP wanted to dispose of phenolphthalein.

Just how much did you have, anyway? Small amounts can be flushed into the sink.

sparky (~_~)


Well. Four 50 gram bottles.
Cheapest quote for disposal was $250 for any weight 0 - 1 kg.
H2O2 well, I used up 2 L. Probably cost me $40.

I kinda thought it was a waste to get rid of it in the first place, sigh. I don't think I stay in any where near most of the forum members, so giving it away was not an option.


plante1999 - 4-12-2012 at 15:32

I would gladly accept all the bottles bottle for free!

Better to send it to a member here than disposing of it.

crapper - 4-12-2012 at 15:33

Quote: Originally posted by kristofvagyok  
A cheaper and better idea: dilute it with a lot water and pour it down to sink.

Why did you did such a long, expensive and unnecessary disposal for a non toxic chemical like that?


I guess I won't drink the tap water in Hungary. But thanks, now I know what happens to the chemicals you dispose.

kristofvagyok - 4-12-2012 at 15:35

Quote: Originally posted by crapper  

Some higher power said it was an evil carcinogenic compound, so I was slightly depressed.

Therefore, I wanted to give it a worthy send off.

I work daily with several really toxic, carcinogenic substances (check out my blog if you want to see them) and I am still alive. Woah!

Also, if I would dispose every chemical what i work with as the method you have described my daily toxic waste amount would be a 25liter can and a few hundred USD bill. Why? because the first standpoint of waste disposal is if you have 10cm3 WASTE THAN DO NOT MAKE IT UP TO 10 LITER.

P.S.: they sell phenolptalein 0.5g pills in the pharmacy as a laxative, so it shouldn't be so carcinogen. But congrats for that amount of wasted chemical;)

crapper - 4-12-2012 at 15:35

Quote: Originally posted by plante1999  
I would gladly accept all the bottles bottle for free!

Better to send it to a member here than disposing of it.


I can't. Laws.
Unless you can fly all the way to S.E.A.

crapper - 4-12-2012 at 15:36

Quote: Originally posted by kristofvagyok  
Quote: Originally posted by crapper  

Some higher power said it was an evil carcinogenic compound, so I was slightly depressed.

Therefore, I wanted to give it a worthy send off.

I work daily with several really toxic, carcinogenic substances (check out my blog if you want to see them) and I am still alive. Woah!

Also, if I would dispose every chemical what i work with as the method you have described my daily toxic waste amount would be a 25liter can and a few hundred USD bill. Why? because the first standpoint of waste disposal is if you have 10cm3 WASTE THAN DO NOT MAKE IT UP TO 10 LITER.

P.S.: they sell phenolptalein 0.5g pills in the pharmacy as a laxative, so it shouldn't be so carcinogen. But congrats for that amount of wasted chemical;)


Er... isn't the active ingredient in a dose low enough not to cause cancer?

kristofvagyok - 4-12-2012 at 15:40

Quote: Originally posted by crapper  
Er... isn't the active ingredient in a dose low enough not to cause cancer?


Let's calculate a bit. 500mg phenolphtalein per pill and you can take daily 2 pill.

I don't think that they would sell a medicine what could cause cancer if you take 10 pills from it (according to your hazardous 5g dose).

crapper - 4-12-2012 at 15:45

Quote: Originally posted by kristofvagyok  
Quote: Originally posted by crapper  
Er... isn't the active ingredient in a dose low enough not to cause cancer?


Let's calculate a bit. 500mg phenolphtalein per pill and you can take daily 2 pill.

I don't think that they would sell a medicine what could cause cancer if you take 10 pills from it (according to your hazardous 5g dose).



Erm, I think they do, that's why some companies pull back their drugs and get fined.

But it's not relevant to this discussion.

I was really really sad getting rid of something useful.
This was how i dealt with it. Sorry if my post caused any inflammation to you.

sparkgap - 5-12-2012 at 03:53

kristof,

I suppose you'd want to see this paper (and probably also this) which is one of the studies that demonstrated phenolphthalein's carcinogenicity in rodents (said to be through the generation of free radical causing oxidative stress). On the other hand, not all mice seem to be susceptible (and after all, it isn't always right to extrapolate effects in mice to humans, but better safe than sorry, no?)... I suppose OP panicked a bit more than he's supposed to, but anyway...

sparky (~_~)

P.S. If you really must destroy the thing (a bit of a waste, but oh well), I suppose Fenton's reagent would do the trick.

kristofvagyok - 5-12-2012 at 09:35

I don't care about that how carcinogetic phenolphtalein is, it is still one of the best easy, OTC indicator. Also in one of the cited articles they made a test on mice and rats with 6000, 12000, 25000 and 50000ppm daily concentration of phenolphtalein for 2 years. With these conditions almost every chemical would cause cancer....

But back to the original topic, I say if you got a 5g solid chemical, then it is not a good thing to make 5 liter of hazardous waste from it, even if it's plutonium-nitrate or just simple silica gel.

blogfast25 - 5-12-2012 at 10:51

This is idiocy. Here we have someone going to great lengths to destroy a relatively small amount of a very useful and valuable chemical.

Next time, suggest to your bosses to actually burn some money (cash), it’s an easier, faster and safer way to lose money! :(

Hexavalent - 5-12-2012 at 12:49

Why not just keep it, you never know when it could come in handy.

Mailinmypocket - 5-12-2012 at 13:08

Quote: Originally posted by Hexavalent  
Why not just keep it, you never know when it could come in handy.


Yeah I find it rather strange to throw away phenolphthalein in that manner... I have a 100g or so bottle that I think is older than I am, and it still performs perfectly. It doesn't seem to spoil...

Meh...who knows!

crapper - 6-12-2012 at 21:46

The cancer thing:

I personally feel that it isn't a big threat, i mean show me the bodies. I've read the references about carcinogenicity before doing disposal.

I also know that cancer is a result of multiple hits on the dna.
I wouldn't want to contribute to that.

Letting organic compounds degrade with the "help" of ubiquitous microorganisms is just too slow / intangible for me.

Would they be degraded in time before contact with an unsuspecting human being? I live in a densely populated area.

I wouldn't want others to be at the receiving end of my actions.

I had 4 x 50 g bottles. I really like it as an indicator, it's also found in universal indicator. I dunno why it keeps getting described as 5 g. I added 5 g at a time so that there would not be foaming.

I asked myself:"What would the waste disposal people do?" ---> take the $, then pour it down the drain.

If it was a evil, toxic compound, and your boss asked you to pour it down the drain, would you? I hear guys complain about the purity of their compounds, what about the safety of drinking water? You think desalination plants purify everything?

Of course I know sulfuric acid is toxic too. But its easier to neutralise that in my lab.

Oh, and they're asking me to do the same to potassium dichromate next.


497 - 6-12-2012 at 23:23

Just look up how much of many household/commercial product (that's meant to be put down the drain even) causes cancer and various other damages... You might want to stop drinking the water and eating the food, because there are SO many orders of magnitude more toxins going in to drains/rivers which are toxic in orders magnitude lower concentrations! It's nice that you don't want to contribute, but really in this particular case it was nothing compared to what you probably already have from just living in a densely populated area... I'm not saying every chemical should just be dumped. But you chose a really bad example for an argument that is valid otherwise!

Anyone who didn't want to spend $40 on H2O2 could have burned it in a hot fire and maybe saved a couple cents on fuel if they where determined to destroy it. And then they're worried about hydroquinone, salicylic acid and H2SO4 too?? None of those are even toxic or resistant to biodegradation in dilute form. Oh shit, what about the oxalic acid that might have formed! That's poisonous according to the MSDS! Good lord you either have an extremely paranoid or somewhat incompetent boss!

I bet any member here interested would have payed the shipping or even a little more. There's no other reason not ship it right? It's doesn't take hazmat shipping does it?

[Edited on 7-12-2012 by 497]