Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Burners

Quantum - 15-5-2004 at 14:49

I know many of you have burners as they are great for heating things. Do you use bottled gas/ piped nat gas or what? I have a nat gas line but its only used for the furnace. Is there a way to add a pipe to be used to power a burner. The furnace is in my garage and so is my lab so it could be done.

What are your ideas/stories about burners?

The_Davster - 15-5-2004 at 15:41

I have been using an alcohol burner for years but now am planning on getting a hot plate and a propane torch. The alcohol burner has been enough for most uses so far, but I want to give ethoxyethane a try so obviously I dont want to use an open flame. I am wanting the propane torch because melting NaOH takes too long with an alcohol burner.

Saerynide - 16-5-2004 at 00:24

I use my gas stove, which also has an electric hot plate :D The gas stove burns too hot though, it killed my pyrex beaker.

4s2 - 16-5-2004 at 01:05

Propane burners are fairly easy to make, but will cost a few bucks to rent/buy a tank and fill it now and then.

Yes you can tap your gas line that goes to your furnace, but you may be violating regualation and safety standards... no I am pretty sure you would be. If that doesnt stop you, ball valves and gas rated teflon tape would be required for the job. But there is no way to protect against flashback without arrestors and guages that would outweigh the cost of buying a large propane tank, making a very easy burner, and refilling the tank every few months(of just buying the small disposable camping tanks)

Disposable propane tanks.

Prince_Lucifer - 16-5-2004 at 03:11

Hey,
In regards to the disposable butane cylinders these are easily obtainable but in the longrun, a steel propane tank will work out cheaper.
I guess it depends on how often you use it and how long it will be employed for at one time.
I worked at a camping shop once, and we sold both varieties.
Disposables come in 190, 220 & 450g tanks, some have a threaded top, some need to be punctured. These are compatible with either camping lanterns, or little hiking stoves.
In the camping trade, the smaller it is, the more expensive it is ;)
I used to own a 10,000BTU burner which worked with threaded tanks, and this boiled 1L of water in about 3min. RRP was around AUD$40-50 though, big brands are more!
For longevity, you would be best to buy a 9kg propane cylinder, fit a suitable regulator to it (usually 2.5kpa) and buy yourself a low pressure propane ring burner.
These are very durable, very cheap and they're available in most places.
Sgl=6,000BTU
Dbl=12,000BTU
Triple=30,000BTU
Quad=42,000BTU
These numbers refer to the amount of rings on a burner....obviouslu :D
Remember 10,000BTU boils 1l of water in 3min, use this a rough guide.
Depending on what your needs are, there are a large number of alternatives out there, you just need to sit down and do the sums.
Hope this has helped you man, just remember not to use naked flame around volatile solvents, as you prolly know, the two dont mix very well :o Good Luck!

Quantum - 16-5-2004 at 03:24

Yea; I know not to use flame around solvents(well water is ok) thats why I have my hotplate.

What would I be looking at to get set up? I have seen the propane tanks at stores but how much is this regulator. Can I put it on with hand tools?

Burner Setup.

Prince_Lucifer - 16-5-2004 at 03:45

Hey, that was quick :)
Smaller cylinders generally have 3/8"LH (left hand) threads on top of the bottle and
the larger bottles (4kg/9kg) have what is called a POL thread, jutting out the side of the bottle.
Regulators are available for both threads, they are fitted by connecting via hand, and a spanner to finish the job. Regs are $20.
Regulators are required to step down the flow of gas. Cylinders are high pressure, the ring burners are low pressure :)
You will need to run a hose from the regulator to the burner. These come in a variety of sizes and are quite cheap.
IIRC, the outer end of the regulator has a 1/4" female thread, hence you will need a hose with a 1/4" male connection and a 1/4" MBSP female connector to fit the burner.
These specs are to suit australian burners and they comply with australian gas regulations etc, but if you go to a disposal/ camping store, they should have all these items in stock. The added bonus with being in the store is you can test different hoses and if the guy is nice, he should let you fire up the burner...(we did at our store)
These are very safe rigs and are quite cheap. You could get a whole package with a single ring burner for under $100.
You should get around 7-10 hrs worth of burning, if running a single burner on a 9kg bottle. More if heat is turned down!!

[Edited on 16-5-2004 by Prince_Lucifer]

My heat sources

axehandle - 16-5-2004 at 03:48

I have 3: A thermostatically controlled hotplate, my kitchen oven and my propane burner, fed from the canister to the right in this picture:


The cost of the hotplate was about 20 US dollars, and the propane bottle approximately 100 US dollars. The pressure regulator for the propane flask was about 40 US dollars (expensive, but very accurate and the best brand available).

The nice thing about this propane flask is that it's made of transparent glass fiber / epoxy, so you can easily see how much is left in the tank. This particular tank holds 10kg of propane, weighs about 6.7kg empty (MUCH easier to handle than a steel tank) and a refill costs about 30 US dollars, which I consider dirt cheap. It's the initial investment that carries the heavy price tag.

hodges - 16-5-2004 at 12:40

For heating test tubes full of liquids, I use an ordinary candle.

For heating things to high temperatures, I use a butane torch.

For drying (non-flamable) chemicals I use my oven, set just below boiling.

axehandle - 16-5-2004 at 13:22

Hmm... hodges, you lack the 150C..1400C range.

I'm debating with myself right now whether to get a heating a heating mantle AND a bunsen burner, or to just get a bunsen burner. Any arguments?

Organikum - 16-5-2004 at 13:29

Mostly I use an old second hand double hotplate now which works fine and gets pretty hot - redglow is no problem if desired and the special design makes it also survive the heat.
(I will post some funny pictures next, of molten hotplates and stuff...)

Before I used my gas-stove until I got tired of the half meter flames coming from the sideneck of my flask.
This I encountered with:
- IPA
- acetone
- ether
which seem to have the magic properties of leaving the flask and immediately searching and finding the open flame.

A wet towel BY HAND, this says in reach without having to a single step, is the magic device which saves health or life.

I am not the "dont do this at home kids" guy, for sure not, but this is a such immense important and easy thing to have - the WET TOWEL BY HAND, that I probably will repeat this quite often.

I apologize already now for this repetitive behaviour - but only by the TOWEL people, thats understood.


ADDON:
Diethylether is really special. This needs no flame to start burning, but a hotplate on low settings is sufficent.
I can only say: Have respect and be careful. And dont huff it. The headaches next day are CRUEL.

I had already and will me get again soon a benzine burner lamp. They are fucking cheap here (second hand or even new) and they burn VERY hot with a larger flame than most propane burners to buy. And I like them.

btw. has anybody a clue if (of course) and more important how I can connect a burner to the natural gas in my flat? Why propane tanks if I have the gas already by hand? I guess I will need a pressure reducing valve or likely and some gastubing/hosing.
Is it possible to use LPG parts for connectins etc.? Nozzles and such has to be redesigned I guess, but thats no real problem.
A natural gas outlet to fit into flasks or furnaces would be nice anyways. Many good reactions can be done with methane as reagent.

Yes I know its not allowed to do this by my own, its just for informational purposes of course, plain curiosity.....
(the pics will be posted in the invisible "Secret Lab";)

Uuups. rereading the starting post of Quantum I relize that this was solely on BURNERS.
And I talked hotplate.
And asked almost the same questions again like Quantum
What a day.


My main question but is: Does anybody know if in Europe (continental) the threads of LPG and natural gas lines are identical and if there are problems if a gashose made for LPG is used with natural gas (methane).

thanks.

[Edited on 16-5-2004 by Organikum]

Hermes_Trismegistus - 17-5-2004 at 00:42

Yeah, I've gotten this file on burner design floating around from one generous fellow.

So....just make a bunsen burner, and a heating mantle could easily be made from nichrome wire, a light dimmer and fiberglass fabric (from a boatbuilding supply.

Both have their selling points, heating mantles have been saving lives for many many years. But unless you're using flammable solvents a bunsen burner is simple and elegant. (as well as pretty)
Quote:
Originally posted by axehandle
Hmm... hodges, you lack the 150C..1400C range.

I'm debating with myself right now whether to get a heating a heating mantle AND a bunsen burner, or to just get a bunsen burner. Any arguments?

EvilClone - 17-5-2004 at 08:32

Organik, it is possible to get hook-ups for other things off the natural gas line. We had one put in outside for our BBQ. As for how I can't be of anymore assistance, we had someone do it. Figgured it would be best not to burn the place down and all that. I'm not sure if they would put something like that inside the building, but people do have gas stoves insade.

4s2 - 17-5-2004 at 08:34

what do people use for the 1300 C, to 3000 C range?

axehandle - 17-5-2004 at 09:14

My ceramics supplier has an oven that goes up to 3000C. AFAIK, tungsten or molybdenium heating coils are used.

Organikum - 17-5-2004 at 11:48

I dont think any metal heating elements can stand these temperatures - at least over 2500°C.
Arc furnaces are good for such high temps, indirect heating by electromagnetic waves may work. Microwaves heating a plasma for example like in the fusion reactor prototypes of the TOKAMAK kind.

4s2 - 17-5-2004 at 19:28

I had allways used a graphite crucible with oxy/acetylene, but often times this is a huge waste of gas to heat a crucible, or the rxn of the oxy/acet proccess interferes with what your trying to do. And a major problem with arc gouging... (the carbon/copper rods used in an arc furnace) is that its so hard to control the temp. theres really no, low, medium, and high. theres Super Fricken Hot, SF Hotter, and SF Hottest. (depending on the amperage source on your welder/power supply.
An oven may just be the best route.

axehandle - 18-5-2004 at 00:01

Quote:

I dont think any metal heating elements can stand these temperatures - at least over 2500°C.

Tungsten (MP 3390C) can, in an inert atmosphere. :P

Tacho - 18-5-2004 at 09:23

These are portable, handheld and can be refilled with cigarette lighter's gas (butane in a can) that you can buy at any tobacco shop.
A gas charge lasts a lot.
They are robust and well built. I have mine for years. They can be used as bunsen burners or blowtorches. NOT FOR INFLAMABLES, of course.



This guys make it:
www.metalorca.com.br





What's this? Oh, no!, not this picture again...

[Edited on 18-5-2004 by Tacho]

4s2 - 18-5-2004 at 20:28

using an iron as a hotplate? crap. thats a really good idea I had never thought about. Does it actualy work? or is it some joke, in which I am too socialy inept to understand?

In any case I will pick an iron up from the thrift store and find out.

Tacho - 19-5-2004 at 03:07

I would never built such a ridiculous equipment in my sophisticated lab, but a friend of a friend who did, says it works very well. He uses a powerful dimmer (>1500W) to control power, otherwise the aluminum melts. This happened twice.