Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Making Sodium Silicate

Making Sodium Silicate

CHRIS25 - 25-4-2012 at 03:46

Hi, I don't have enough of those silica beads found in those little packets so I am going to use sand instead in order to get a decent amount. But I could not really find any information on how clean the sand needs to be before starting the reaction with Sodium hydroxide. Is washing it with clear water good enough? Or should I mix water and alchohol and wash it that way? Since I have access to so many varieties of Sandy beaches here, I mean ranging from dark brown to light yellow I was wondering if anyone had any insight into the the necessity to use high purity sand.
thanks Hope I am not wasting your time on this one.

[Edited on 25-4-2012 by CHRIS25]

MountainMan - 25-4-2012 at 07:56

I've tried something similar. Strongly recommend that use pure quartz sand ( SiO2 ) or you will get an impure substance contaminated with other cations that are virtually impossible to remove.
If you want to purchase sodium silicate, suggest trying a pottery or ceramics supplier. I buy mine now.

CHRIS25 - 25-4-2012 at 09:14

Ok thanks Mountain man.

MrHomeScientist - 25-4-2012 at 09:42

Beach sand is mostly SiO2, but also will have various salts from the water and bits of broken shells mixed in. You want to use as pure white of sand as you can find, to minimize other impurities. Washing with water a few times will get rid of the soluble impurities (NaCl, etc.), but leave the seashells behind. For that, you want to react it with hydrochloric acid until any bubbling stops. This reacts the calcium carbonate that makes up the shells into soluble calcium chloride. Those two steps should give you reasonably pure SiO2. Is that pure enough to make water glass? I can't be sure; I don't have any experience making it myself.

CHRIS25 - 25-4-2012 at 09:54

Ok thankyou. I think I can find light sand but not the white stuff that I am sure I have seen on some American coastlines. However that is certainly worth doing. Thanks.

Pyridinium - 26-4-2012 at 18:01

If the crystal garden experiment is any indicator, then silicates of the metal impurities should be poorly soluble. I would like to try this experiment with some rust-colored sand and see what happens, but you might get a usable sodium silicate just by letting the impurities settle.

Edit: I didn't see that Mountain Man tried this already... guess the impurities were a problem?

[Edited on 27-4-2012 by Pyridinium]

bbartlog - 26-4-2012 at 18:53

As an aside, this is a slow reaction. Even using little porous silica beads (which presumably have a large surface area), it took me days at RT to get them to dissolve. I expect using sand will be even slower, though with enough heat maybe you can fix that :-).

Vargouille - 26-4-2012 at 19:29

Yeah, silica beads take ages to dissolve. Accorrding to Nurdrage, sand doesn't work at all unless you use molten NaOH, which of course requires a metal container. The way I'm making my garden is I've crushed the silica gel beads under a layer of water in my little mortar and pestle so that they wouldn't bounce away, let it air dry, and scooped that up into a little vial. I'm going to wait until I have some nice transition metal salts before I make the sodium silicate, but when I have them it'll just be as simple as mixing NaOH and the crushed silica gel beads in water, diluting the result, and dropping some clumps in.

Fun.

CHRIS25 - 27-4-2012 at 05:57

I am actually wanting to make silica gel, for absorbing moisture, both for the fungus problem in corners of a room, but also for making sure I get rid of moisture from some precipitants double quick efficiency. Sodium acetate storage, which I have successfully made and isin an air tight container, but I presume throwing in a small packet of silica gel would keep the moisure away. It's not that I am not careful it's more that Ireland is a damp country to live in and Total dryness for storage purposes can never be guaranteed. Even in summer!

dann2 - 27-4-2012 at 07:45

Sodium Silicate used to be used for preserving eggs. It was called Water Glass.
Perhaps you may be able to purchase in a store for doing that job?

http://mistralhowto.wordpress.com/tag/water-glass-preserving...

Dann2

[Edited on 27-4-2012 by dann2]

CHRIS25 - 27-4-2012 at 10:53

Quote: Originally posted by dann2

Sodium Silicate used to be used for preserving eggs. It was called Water Glass.
Perhaps you may be able to purchase in a store for doing that job?

Hi Dan, that would be nice, but I am a bit of an adventurer and liking chemistry too much. I would like to make things from scratch, for fun and to learn but there is a kind of self sufficiency about all this that I enjoy. having said that it would be difficult I think to find a store like that. Though I know one place in Dublin that deals with the food industry and preservatives - i ordered from them before so I might as well check them again as a last resort.

http://mistralhowto.wordpress.com/tag/water-glass-preserving...

Dann2

[Edited on 27-4-2012 by dann2]

Vargouille - 27-4-2012 at 13:15

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

Sodium silicate is stable in neutral and alkaline solutions. In acidic solutions, the silicate ion reacts with hydrogen ions to form silicic acid, which when heated and roasted forms silica gel, a hard, glassy substance.

Neil - 28-4-2012 at 09:59

Pottery shops often sell it cheap.

If you try and use silica sand, do you self a favour and heat it with a chip of broken window glass till it all clumps together and gets gooey. Converting the quartz to glass makes life better. You can also buy ground quartz dust from pottery shops and get very fine quartz sand from brick supply places as a mortar ingredient.

CHRIS25 - 28-4-2012 at 11:09

You know what folks I think I will take your advice on this one, have too much to do anyway in mixing ingredients. So thanks for those pointers Gentleman.

Kind Regards
Chris

Arthur Dent - 28-4-2012 at 11:22

Another source is the crystal type of kitty litter, it's mostly pure sodium silicate (make sure it's the unscented one). I recently bought a 1 kilo bag for 3 bucks at the grocery store.

Robert

dann2 - 28-4-2012 at 13:12

A hardward store may have it. One 'out the country'.
Da

CHRIS25 - 29-4-2012 at 10:29

Halo Arthur and Dann2, I looked up kitty litter, so far no luck here in Ireland with that one. But thanks for the tips.

S.C. Wack - 29-4-2012 at 13:31

How about sodium metasilicate. It's sold in pure form as a cleaner over here (great for making silica gel), maybe you could find it as brewer's detergent or mixed with something. Then maybe the right amount of NaOH if that works, or just HCl and getting nice white SiO2 that way.

CHRIS25 - 29-4-2012 at 23:11

Ok, Three of the top homebrewer suppliers in Ireland - absolutely no sodium metasilicate. 13 dollars for 250 grams in Northern Ireland for silicate. How does that compare with USA?

KInd Regards
Chris

[Edited on 30-4-2012 by CHRIS25]

S.C. Wack - 30-4-2012 at 03:04

Not well. RD TSP-90 cleaner is $2/lb, as the pentahydrate.

CHRIS25 - 30-4-2012 at 04:52

I typed in the above and also just TSP into the four brewery supplies in Ireland - it simply does not exist, and a google search in Ireland delivers nothing, even a search for cleaners gives just a handful of strange looking products. So yeh, as usual I will attempt to make my own from common beach sand.

AJKOER - 30-4-2012 at 05:48

If you are looking for something to control mold, use CaCl2 which is sold commercially as a damp remover (very effective).

ScienceSquirrel - 30-4-2012 at 05:59

I think TSP is trisodium phosphate and it is widely available as an alkaline cleaner;

http://mistralni.co.uk/catalogue/product/98/TSP-TriSodium-Ph...

CHRIS25 - 30-4-2012 at 06:39

Great, that solves the mold problem, calcium chloride I shall make and I never knew about this one. As for the TSP, thanks squirrel, I thought that the post by S C Wack on RD TSP-90 was perhaps referring to a brand name containing sodium silicate.

S.C. Wack - 30-4-2012 at 13:33

Metasilicate. Pentahydrate. RD is the company, TSP-90 is what they call it. It seems that this (USA) and brewer's detergent (elsewhere) are the few available sources. Water glass solutions were found in the hardware store some years ago.

CHRIS25 - 1-5-2012 at 00:01

===RD is the company, TSP-90 is===
Who are RD, I typed them up and received everything from readers digest to road development. Probably a US company. And tsp 90 is unheard of here.

Eddygp - 1-5-2012 at 00:14

I doubt it is this one

http://www.rdcompany.it/

watson.fawkes - 1-5-2012 at 07:15

Quote: Originally posted by CHRIS25

===RD is the company, TSP-90 is===
Who are RD, I typed them up and received everything from readers digest to road development. Probably a US company. And tsp 90 is unheard of here.

The actual brand is "Red Devil", not just RD. The manufacturer is "Red Devil, Inc.". Here's a fact sheet from the manufacturer.

In a rather bizarre kind of verbal twist, the acronym "TSP", which used to stand exclusively for tri-sodium phosphate, is now used to market non-phosphate cleaners. The box markings often have "TSP" in big letters and the word "substitute" right nearby in much smaller type. In any case, many of the "TSP substitutes" are metasilicates, though there are others, as I recall. I have even seen actual TSP and substitute TSP side by side on the shelf; the most visible difference is the colors of the design, and the type difference is small.

I've most often seen these products in the paint section of the home improvement store. They're used for surface preparation.

Neil - 1-5-2012 at 07:19

I've seen silicates in a lot of "green degreasers"

CHRIS25 - 1-5-2012 at 08:03

I will visit the builders providers over here, doubt very much if they have this stuff. Never seen an american product in this country except for supermarket substitution american cookies at 27 times the price!!!But that TSP now makes perfect sense. Good to be aware of all this, thanks.

Fleaker - 1-5-2012 at 14:54

You can come take all you want away for free from our plant. When we make it, we make it by the ton as a byproduct.

That goes to any member. Just provide the transport and the container and we'll fill it.

[Edited on 1-5-2012 by Fleaker]

dann2 - 1-5-2012 at 16:41

http://www.buy4now.ie/woodiesdiy/productdetail.aspx?pid=1199...

Ferocious price for the small amount but may get you away. Try craft shops, hardwars stores and cerimic supply stores. (as stated above).
Mistral also sell the stuff

http://mistralni.co.uk/catalogue/product/36

I read (on google) that is was used for preserving eggs during the great depression.
Now there would be nothing quite like a great big feed of Sodium Metasilicate preserved dodgy hen eggs (wrong colour of yoke laid by a hen that really wants to be a rooser (sorry B81

)) together with some slices of Hoover hogs (murdered Armadillouse) as you crawled along on your Hoovercraft squashing real bunnies into fly bunnies.........

Think I'll go away now.
Dann2

CHRIS25 - 2-5-2012 at 04:02

Thanks for the offer Fleaker! Dann ferrocious pricing yep.

S.C. Wack - 2-5-2012 at 12:49

I assume there is some way to take silica from talc. Perhaps fusion with sodium hydroxide or carbonate.

Eddygp - 3-5-2012 at 13:08

How about silicic acid and sodium hydroxide?

barley81 - 3-5-2012 at 13:36

And where would you get silicic acid?

Silicic acid is usually made in the laboratory by acidifying silicate salts. Dehydration of the gelatin-like silicic acid produces silica gel, which the OP wants. So, there is no point in making sodium silicate from silicic acid if the OP wanted silica gel.

CHRIS25 - 4-5-2012 at 04:31

Damprid (calcium chloride) and sodium silicate unheard of by the major Trade suppliers of farming and builders businesses. Took a tour today and visited them all. They never heard of it. Saw damprid on Amazon uk but not at that price.

dann2 - 4-5-2012 at 14:30

Quote: Originally posted by CHRIS25

Damprid (calcium chloride) and sodium silicate unheard of by the major Trade suppliers of farming and builders businesses. Took a tour today and visited them all. They never heard of it. Saw damprid on Amazon uk but not at that price.

"Took a tour today and visited them all"

How many was that?

Aldi often have Calcium Chloride. Its used a a dehumidifier.

CHRIS25 - 4-5-2012 at 14:59

There are only four big businesses like this in my area, plus two farmers suppliers and a co-op. Aldi? Never seen it there but will take a look, But where are you? USA England?

S.C. Wack - 4-5-2012 at 15:28

Well it's not surprising if such businesses are unfamiliar with chemical names. It's always been called water glass here.

Rutland makes a product for hardware store sale (cement floor sealer) that would be in the general OTC category I was talking about earlier, if only any hardware stores actually sold it. IIRC their furnace cement, which is sold, is loaded with silicate, but such a product's usefulness and the chances of an Irish equivalent are not the best.

I was not impressed by the action of sodium carbonate on talc at 950C, but am assured that 1100C will clean up the mess in my crucible. Obviously these are stressful conditions for many crucibles.

CHRIS25 - 5-5-2012 at 06:27

Don't worry I am going to melt glass and get it that way.

Eddygp - 5-5-2012 at 08:04

At what temperature does glass melt?

watson.fawkes - 5-5-2012 at 09:43

Quote: Originally posted by Eddygp

At what temperature does glass melt?

Here's your link.

CHRIS25 - 5-5-2012 at 12:14

Quote: Originally posted by Eddygp

At what temperature does glass melt?

Hi, I am using Sodium Hydroxide heated up and kept warm in a stainless steel saucepan, I have not yet done it but it will work.

dann2 - 12-5-2012 at 16:07

A lot of concrete sealers contain Sodium Silicate.
I droppedsome Copper Sulphate into the product in the link and it 'grew' an atomic explosion. It contains Sodium Silicate. Lots of builders providers should have it. Its about 10 Quid for 5 liters. (GeoCel Integral Waterproofer)
It also conatins some Sodium (or probably potassium) hydroxide.

http://www.geocel.co.uk/product.aspx?id=142&pr=gbar

There is a white ring on the bottom of the container in the picture. It is Potassium Perchlorate as I dropped in some Sodium Perchlorate solution to see if there was any Potassium in the product (Potassium Perchlorate is not very soluble). I am not too sure if there is Na or K Hydroxide with the Silicate as I do not know the solubility of Sodium Perchlorate in a concentrated solution of Sodium Silicate.

CHRIS25 - 13-5-2012 at 03:41

Thanks Dan, good to know.

Amos - 12-12-2014 at 20:20

Alright, time to reopen this thread. Today out of curiosity I decided to try my hand at making some sodium silicate from scratch: No silica gel involved. I cranked up my burner to its highest setting, which easily melted about 8 grams of sodium hydroxide in a stainless steel crucible. I then slowly began to add fine quartz sand while stirring with a steel rod, and to my surprise, it seemed to dissolve quite quickly into the sodium hydroxide! Intending to make sure there was no unreacted NaOH left over, I continued adding sand until the contents of my crucible abruptly solidified into a crunchy mass. I then added a bit of water to return it to a liquid phase, and again boiled to dryness.

This "experiment" is merely a test to see if it was doable; So can anyone suggest a reasonably definitive test to see if my product is what I think it is? There's an excess of quartz sand present, so I intend to filter it out of my solution as a first step.

Oscilllator - 12-12-2014 at 20:38

I imagine filtering will be very difficult, as IIRC solutions of sodium silicate are quite viscous.

Amos - 12-12-2014 at 20:46

I've diluted it quite a lot, but it is still syrupy; I get an occasional drop through the paper.

CHRIS25 - 13-12-2014 at 02:41

Quote: Originally posted by No Tears Only Dreams Now

This "experiment" is merely a test to see if it was doable; So can anyone suggest a reasonably definitive test to see if my product is what I think it is? There's an excess of quartz sand present, so I intend to filter it out of my solution as a first step.

(NOTE: I am not a chemist and if anything below actually needs correcting then please tell me so that I can re-do my own tests)

Some time ago I needed to find the Sodium Oxide content in my silicate. I used HCl and you have to titrate to a PH of about 4.3, I used a comparator strip for this.

I weighed 5g of the silicate suspect into into boiling water
made 0.5M HCl and using PH strips titrated until a PH of 4.3 was reached.

Calculations: 40 mLs HCl titrated/1000 x 0.5 M HCl = 0.02
0.02 x 62 g/mol NaO = 1.24
1.24/2 (because 2HCl needed per one mol SiO₂) = 0.62g in my 5g sample.

This means my sample contained 12.4% Na and O. How does this help? Well, A general Sodium silicate solution contains 12% Na, O and 30% Silicon dioxide. So I think mine was spot on? Although I must add that Na₂O₄Si is 50% Na and Na₂O₇Si₃ is 19% Na. So it varies considerably. but the Less Sodium there is in the compound the less soluble it is.

Also, I have not done this, but to measure the silicate content you could add HCl until the silica precipitates, boil the filtrate and you are left with NaCl, though I am not sure exactly if this is correct, someone else could help here.

As I said if any of the above is incorrect please correct.

[Edited on 13-12-2014 by CHRIS25]

blogfast25 - 13-12-2014 at 05:51

Chris:

Firstly the normal oxide of sodium is Na2O, not NaO.

Secondly, although titration will yield an approximate results, we rarely titrate anything that also generates much precipitation, it's inaccurate.

Your titration would be stoichiometrically (for metasilcate):

Na2SiO3 + 2 HCl === > 2 NaCl + SiO2 + H2O

Is that how you calculated your result?

The method would improve by using a pH indicator added directly to the analyte solution, like methyl orange, phenophtalein or bromothymol blue. Even home made indictators (from red cabbage e.g.) would work better than pH strips.

Also using a less concentrated analyte solution (e.g. 0.01 M approx.) and HCl 0.01 M will cause less interference from the precipitating SiO2 and improve end-point detection.

Commercially bought sodium silicates will often tell you their composition though.

[Edited on 13-12-2014 by blogfast25]

CHRIS25 - 13-12-2014 at 10:37

Thanks for the corrections should have paid more attention though to the NaO mistake. Yes I calculated as per the equation. Also I did use phenopthalein on one of the titrations according to jumbled disorganized notes from a long time ago. But speculation here is useless. I will do this one again. And yes, I also wrote that dilutiing severely will tend to form a colloidal silicate rather than a gel.

dermolotov - 13-12-2014 at 12:57

I've researched a lot of sodium silicate as I've wanted silicon dioxide for my purposes at home. Kitty litter is sodium silicate but the blue is contaminated with cobalt chloride. There also seem to spray some annoying scents on them.

What I would do to clean it all up is pick out the blue ones from the white ones. That can get tedious so put on a movie whilst you're doing it (that's what i did). Then slowly saturate the beads with water to prevent cracking and when fully saturated, just wash it with copious amounts of water. Then run half a bottle of isopropanol over them as well to get rid of the scent.

Going through your original problem, if you want to rid it of mould, try leaving a dish of Propylene Glycol/Water solution. That stuff is very good for countering mould in a lot of places. It's also fairly inert.

Amos - 13-12-2014 at 13:10

Thanks for finally registering and joining us here on the forum, Dermolotov. I do doubt, however, that the original author still hasn't found something to treat the mold (look at the original post date). And if you want silicon dioxide, why not get some fine white beach sand(it might be sold in hardware stores near you) and treat it with some hydrochloric acid to dissolve away impurities?

Oh and as an update, the sodium silicate I made from fusing sand and NaOH seems to be the real deal; it works for making crystal gardens, and the precipitate formed when it is mixed with a copper sulfate solution doesn't decompose upon heating, ruling out Cu(OH)2.

CHRIS25 - 13-12-2014 at 13:23

Quote: Originally posted by No Tears Only Dreams Now

Thanks for finally registering and joining us here on the forum, Dermolotov. I do doubt, however, that the original author still hasn't found something to treat the mold (look at the original post date).

Hallo? The original author did not Resurrect this thread, and yes he has a mold solution - scrubbing. I simply was trying to answer your question about how to test the sodium silicate. Besides, The original question was not about mold removal at all.

dermolotov - 13-12-2014 at 13:42

Quote: Originally posted by No Tears Only Dreams Now

Quote: Originally posted by CHRIS25

yes he has a mold solution - scrubbing. I simply was trying to answer your question about how to test the sodium silicate. Besides, The original question was not about mold removal at all.

Cheers mate! Great to be on here!

My apologies. His original post was not related to mould removal but he did later add and addendum mentioning it was one of the reasons he believed sodium silicate would work for his purposes. Hence me recommending propylene glycol.
PG 50:50 with water is used to keep cigars humid and free from mould. Same should be with his garden bed.

Quote: Originally posted by No Tears Only Dreams Now

Oh and as an update, the sodium silicate I made from fusing sand and NaOH seems to be the real deal; it works for making crystal gardens, and the precipitate formed when it is mixed with a copper sulfate solution doesn't decompose upon heating, ruling out Cu(OH)2.

I'd imagine column silicon dioxide shuld be cheap as hell. they come in giant barrels that even a hobo could afford. I'm surprised that hasn't be recommended?
Flaming Silica found on the beach and washing it with HCl might purify it even further!