Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Aluminum Shavings

Adam - 21-4-2004 at 17:02

Dose anyone know a source of aluminum shavings? My current process is far to tedious.

Thanks
~Adam

Something like the flakes seen in here. Also mabey anyone has an idea of how to separate the flakes possibly through electrolysis?


[Edited on 22-4-2004 by Adam]

Son of Northern Darkness - 26-4-2004 at 07:38

Separate flakes by electrolysis? Eh?

axehandle - 26-4-2004 at 10:46

Take:

1) A block of pure Al.
2) A drill press.
3) An 8mm drill bit.
4) A coolant water vat to cool the drill bit from to time.
5) Running water to cool the Al block from time to time.
6) Have fun.

Edit: Another method would be to pump molten aluminum out of a small nozzle into water using a pump that gives "pulse" pressure.

Edit2: Ah, I see now that you want powder, not flakes. Use one of those knife sharpening rotating stone wheel thingies with the wheel partially submerged into water. Grind away. It works, albeit slowly.


[Edited on 2004-4-26 by axehandle]

4s2 - 26-4-2004 at 12:34

Does the aluminum foil in the blender (with water) actualy work?

axehandle - 26-4-2004 at 12:57

No. I've tried it. You need to grind it. Sorry.

tom haggen - 26-4-2004 at 14:28

The problem with trying to use a grinder to obtain aluminum dust, is that your product will be contaminated with AlO2 or whatever type of abrasive you might be using. You see abrasive wheels and the like are designed to break away during the grinding process, to uncover fresh sharp grains. I could give you a more detailed example but I already sold my grinding book back to the book store. What you want to do, and what I'm planning on doing is build a tumbler. With a tumbler you can throw in some scraps of aluminum and some oil and some hardened steel ball bearings, and get some aluminum powder that way.



[Edited on 26-4-2004 by tom haggen]

[Edited on 26-4-2004 by tom haggen]

jimwig - 26-4-2004 at 16:06

simpler than all that - just go to a metal recycler - the guy who buys your aluminum beverage cans. he will have tons of turnings from machine shops.

the only problem is the alloy type will be unknown. so if you can come up with a downhome check for content then away you go.

that will get turnings - to get the powder is from wanderings I have read is a pyrophobic problem.

a ball mill will reduce the pieces but might catch fire without an inert lubricant.

[Edited on 27-4-2004 by jimwig]

tom haggen - 26-4-2004 at 19:54

Thats why I said toss some oil in the tumbler, vegi oil has a very high flash point.

Adam - 27-4-2004 at 18:51

LOL I went through all that trouble of trying to obtain the shavings but in the end my teacher will sell me pure powered aluminum for $3 / LB Still I would like to thank you all for your help. Also the way he (my teacher) used to make it was by putting shredded aluminum foil from a blender half full of oil (non oxidizing) and put it in a rock grinder with 50 a handful of aluminum pellets (but hardened ball bearings would work too but might contaminate the mix) then let it turn for 12 hours, fallowed by drying.

Saerynide - 28-4-2004 at 00:33

How would you get the oil off the powder?

4s2 - 28-4-2004 at 13:06

Yes, using a grinder to get aluminum dust is rather counter productive. The grinding/cutting/sanding discs all wear down to expose fresh surfaces. While you can make a nice size of Aluminum dust that has carbon, silicon and other disc particles in it, you now have to go buy a new disc which greatly outwieghs the cost of the aluminum powder from a shop.

The way I have been doing it is... taking crappy aluminum castings (Casting aluminum is fun) and a file that has a higher hardness factor, and file away... wow does it suck... and wow does it take forever, but it works. and its cheap.

The blender sounds interesting. I think I will go to a goodwill or salvation army and buy a cheap blender anyway. (could allways use it to make batches of biodiesil) and try to ways of doing it. I just don't know if theres anyhting on aluminum foil besides... aluminum. From casting experiences, the shiny side vs the non shiny side probably isnt a difference in composition. (it does the same thing with cast metal that is very thin and/or compressed)

axehandle - 28-4-2004 at 13:14

Quote:

How would you get the oil off the powder?

With acetone or petrol.

tom haggen - 29-4-2004 at 05:53

I know in one of my posts I said that if you use a grinding wheel to create aluminum powder that your product would be contaminated with AlO2. I meant Aluminum Oxide.

AlumaSeal

4s2 - 8-5-2004 at 11:09

I was cleaning out my truck the other day when I stubled upon my E-Repair kit. In it was a small tube of powder called AlumaSeal- Radiator Sealer. Inside the 20 gram tube, looks to be just finely ground aluminum. But Pouring aluminum into your radiator can't be good enough on its own. I wondered, what ELSE is in this, what could be a way to extract the aluminum from it, and mostly, how does AlumaSeal work to fix the metalic parts of your radiator? (it safely works with all parts (plastic, rubber etc) but does not work to on these parts to fix leaks.)

Sample of Alumaseal tubes I have

http://www.alumaseal.com

Instructions:
1. remove radiator cap after engine cools.
2. Start Engine.
3. Pour contents of tube into radiator.
4. add coolant to proper level.
5. replace radiator cap.
6. Drive vehicle. Leaks are stopped. (within 1-2 min)

jimwig - 23-5-2004 at 15:17

Go here do this:

http://home.deds.nl/~gamekeep/metal%20grinding%20machine.htm...

Interesting I had always thought that the air encouraged burning and that an inert oil or atmosphere was necessary.

I am going to experiment with this methodology - hopefully soon - I will classify the size of materials etc so that ball milling can be ascertained as effective- or not.....

nitroboy - 24-5-2004 at 01:28

andyboy, http://andyboys.web.surftown.se/ had a quite effective way of obtaining high mesh aluminium, and it worked really damn well in a thermite mixture.
and i assume you want powdered Al for pyrotechnics so i would then assume this method (search his site) would be right for you too.

jimwig - 24-5-2004 at 14:26

Nitroboy- have you actually done this with the blender. Sounds like it might work but why hasn't it been more widely reported.

A ball mill is usually used in grinding. The repeated crashing of the balls against the material causing smaller and smaller pieces.

I guess the water is significant - adding some resistance so that the cutting action continues on and on.

This is too easy not to try.

Aluminium dust.

Prince_Lucifer - 26-5-2004 at 06:13

Hello guys,
In my opinion, the fastest and easiest way to produce very fine Al powder is to use grind Al foil in a coffee grinder/blender!!
Now im sure some of you have already tried this with little success, but have you tried grinding the Al foil with salt?
This provides lots of friction and allows the Al foil to come into contact with the blades as much as possible. When done, pour the mixture into water and then decant the salt/water solution. Just make sure to have enough water to dissolve al the salt.
The Al produced is quite fine, perhaps 200-300mesh. Perfect for thermite :)
Enjoy!

coffee grinder warning: BOOM

axehandle - 26-5-2004 at 09:58

The coffee grinder idea sounds like it might work, but I'd add a slight drop of wax, paraffin or similar. There are always tiny tiny crevices leading down into the motor compartment from the grinder compartment, and, well, imagine 300 mesh Al going down there, meeting a spark.... you'd be holding an exploding bomb in your soon-to-be-dismembered hands. You might be able to get away with it 300 times, then one day bad luck strikes.

But provided that a coating agent is added, it should work safely. In fact, I think I'll test it tonight if I have the time.

Theoretic - 27-5-2004 at 04:48

When in contact with salt water, aluminium corrodes easiy, much more so a fine powder. I would suggest some dense organic liquid, denser than salt but not as dense as aluminium... but that's tedious and resource-consuming. Salt could be dissolved away by alcohol, much less corrosive to aluminium than water...

Edit: Much harder and time consuming, requiring a preferably powerful blender, the same salt-grinding method with bulk aluminium (wire). It would take much longer, but I think it would still work...

[Edited on 27-5-2004 by Theoretic]

Prince_Lucifer - 29-5-2004 at 02:34

Thanks guys,
Two very wise suggestions which certainly aroused some concern.
Ironically, I have only used this method a few times therefore i could count with my fingers.
Thank god i still have all 8, otherwise i would have to find another way to count :D :o
Denatured EtOH and paraffin it is!
Heck, now that im perfecting the method, i may as well go all the way and dry the EtOH with molecular sieves. Peace

axehandle - 29-5-2004 at 06:40

If I ever get around to it, and can obtain about 1000..2000 16mm dia SS steel ball-bearing balls, I'll try using my 0.75kW ball mill and a few rolls of Al foil. This method is mentioned everywhere, but noone I know of has actually done it...

Edit: Perhaps a rod mill is the way to go... using steel rods. Hmm.


[Edited on 2004-5-29 by axehandle]

jimwig - 29-5-2004 at 11:03

ya know there might be a reason that noone has actually done that "we" have read of.

There are photos on a site linked from here that depict what looks to be a blender with foil and then another with powder etc.

also in my rather extensive searching for info on powedering metals I have never come across the method of grinding. most patents deal with atomization at the molten state by blowing the stream of metal with air.

aluminum is as stated pyrophobic - or else we would not be so interested in it, right!!! so if the conditons generate enough heat,- friction in a confined space without cooling then - well ya know.....

IF I could locate my damn blender I would try this with a small amount. I can get all the aluminum, brass, etc turnings that I want down the street at the recyclers but as I said earlier I do not have a way of checking the alloy. Does anyone know of a way of ascertaining the purity of any unknown aluminum ?

I will try to get the url and report back.

This is one topic that I am very interested in for all the usual reasons and then some.

maybe this is relavent http://andyboys.web.surftown.se/aluminum.html

[Edited on 29-5-2004 by jimwig]

[Edited on 29-5-2004 by jimwig]

[Edited on 29-5-2004 by jimwig]

determining aluminum

Polverone - 29-5-2004 at 14:35

You could try dissolving a weighed sample of aluminum in NaOH solution. Undissolved material could maybe be filtered and weighed to see how much aluminum was present. I say "maybe" because you may get superfine, hard-to-filter particles. If nothing else you should be able to compare samples and see if one leaves more dark residue than another.

Mumbles - 30-5-2004 at 09:10

I have made aluminum suitable every pyrotechnic application I have. Flash use(extremely fine flake), Flitter use(large flat pieces), and Glitter(small particles). They all work just fine.

I use the blender method to a degree. I put them in there to cut the pieces of Aluminum finer. One must ball mill for a while to get flash suitable size. If It passes an extremely fine mesh screen I have I find it suitable. Flitter I ball mill for 3-4 hours. The pieces get flattened out quite nicely. For glitter I take the flitter particles that were reduced in size from the ball mill. If It goes through a window screen it works. One can also blend longer and you can get something that works.

jimwig - 30-5-2004 at 14:47

Mumbles- can you be more specific as to the size of screens you are talking about.

Window screen I got. But other sizes as in standard screening sizes.

for instance window screen is probably around 35 or so.

I guess the idea is to get it as fine as possible and then classify it, eh? cause using our level of grinding/milling equipment would produce all sizes eventually ???

I have stainless in sizes down to around a 80 and the idea of a 300 or finer screen blows me away. HaHa

[Edited on 30-5-2004 by jimwig]

Mumbles - 31-5-2004 at 19:34

I'm not exactly sure on the size of the super fine screen. I'd imagine 20-25 holes per 1" line. Thats somewhere between 400 and 625 mesh. I'll get out a magnifying glass and count them once I return to my mom's. I found it laying around the house, but can be purchased at basically any grocery store. It's a permanant coffee filter. Quite a usefull little tool in screening things for pyro.

Chemtastic - 19-6-2004 at 08:58

Hi! This is my first post here, but I've been looking around for awhile, and this is a really great site.

I've never tried this method, but wouldn't it be possible to obtain aluminum powder by displacing a soluble metal cation with aluminum, then displacing the aqueous aluminum with another, more reactive metal? For example:

First, Al(s) + 3CuCl(aq) --> AlCl3(aq) + 3Cu(s)

Then, 3Mg(s) + 2AlCl3(aq) --> 3MgCl2(aq) + 2Al(s)

The initial aluminum wouldn't have to be powdered (though surface area would help), and magnesium is available as firestarters for cheap at WalMart (pretty high %age too, I think >97%)

Aluminum would crystallize out of solution, but would the crystals be small enough? I'm not sure; like I said, I've never tried this.

PS - How can BB Code be used for subscript and superscript?

BromicAcid - 19-6-2004 at 09:35

Aluminum obtained in this way, under water, one molecule at a time will undoubtedly contain a high percentage of aluminum oxide. I was once chastised for mentioning this method on rec.pyrotechnics, turns out it was mentioned in one of the 'anarchist' texts floating around on the net and had been tried extensively by some with dismal results.

axehandle - 19-6-2004 at 09:48

One way to prevent oxide forming could perhaps be to use ethanol as a solvent...? Aluminum chloride is soluable in ethanol I think --- the former is the active ingredient in many antiperspirants.

Chemtastic - 19-6-2004 at 09:52

Then (sorry if this is a stupid question) where does the oxygen come from? Can elemental aluminum pull it right out of the water:
2Al(s) + 3H2O(l) --> Al2O3(s) + 3H2(g)?

I've never heard of water splitting into anything besides H+ and OH-

axehandle - 19-6-2004 at 10:09

Sorry if this is a stupid answer, but AFAIK, water always contains a small percentage of dissolved air in it, and that's where the oxygen comes from. I could be amazingly wrong here, but this, to me, sounds like the most plausible explanation...

So, if one could remove all the air.........

Chemtastic - 19-6-2004 at 10:12

ooh good point...forgot about that...water at 75-90 C then, maybe...

unionised - 19-6-2004 at 10:32

Aluminium is a very good reducing agent, quite adequate for reducing water to hydrogen.

axehandle - 19-6-2004 at 11:37

Oh. Well, you learn something new every day...

Hang-Man - 23-6-2004 at 15:09

This process works well for both copper and zinc powder production, I have done them both with success. (Good enough for pyro anyway, if you need some pure metal powders you're out of luck) Disolve Cu or Zn pennies in HCl, wait, and dump in Al to precipitate the powder.

(If someone can think of something to do with aluminum chloride tell me)

Saerynide - 25-6-2004 at 20:11

maybe you could electrolyse the AlCl3 with carbon electrodes to get a powdery Al coating on the cathode that could be easily scraped off?

Organikum - 26-6-2004 at 03:07

You would need anhydrous AlCl3 and then you could do an electrolysis on the molten salt. This is a old process of producing aluminium, before bauxite electrolysis was developed. The Al would be not in a powder form though.
Anhydrous AlCl3 is highly hygroscopic, it fumes in contact with the moisture of air.

Aluminium reacts with water as it does with alcohols. It is only protected by a layer of aluminiumoxide.
The reaction with water:
Al +H2O = AlOH + H

BMW did tests with a utilizing this reaction where Al-wire was highspeed grinded under water producing hydrogen for a combustion engine.

Aluminium is used as a reducing agent in organic chemistry, for this the oxide layer is deactivated by amalgamating the aluminium with mercury.

At automotive supply shops high-temperature Al-spray is sold containing 99,9% Al. I am rather sure that emtying such a bottle into a suitable solvent will produce very fine Al-powder. What solvent is to used depends on the composition of the spray, water and alcohol are for sure not suitable. Mineral spirits, benzine, the high-boiling fraction, thats what I would suggest to try first. But I never did it myself up to now, so dont nail me if it doesnt work.

Saerynide - 26-6-2004 at 06:10

So electrolysing aqueous AlCl3 would only give Al(OH)3? :(

sanity gone - 26-6-2004 at 08:42

I think the blender method might produce a aluminum powder becuase I'm pretty sure they use a wax coating that would prevent the formation of Al(OH)3

Saerynide - 29-6-2004 at 21:55

Has anyone tried to use aluminum glitter as a source? Like the paint method, I suppose one could remove the plastic coating on the glitter using acetone or ethyl acetate. I think the sparkliest glitters are the Al ones, according to this link:

http://www.meadowbrookinventions.com/loband/glitter_products...

It's also extremely fine :D

AllanD - 17-7-2006 at 12:08

Quote:
Originally posted by 4s2
I was cleaning out my truck the other day when I stubled upon my E-Repair kit. In it was a small tube of powder called AlumaSeal- Radiator Sealer. Inside the 20 gram tube, looks to be just finely ground aluminum. But Pouring aluminum into your radiator can't be good enough on its own. I wondered, what ELSE is in this, what could be a way to extract the aluminum from it, and mostly, how does AlumaSeal work to fix the metalic parts of your radiator? (it safely works with all parts (plastic, rubber etc) but does not work to on these parts to fix leaks.)



Would you believe me if I told you the main active ingredient
is actually ground oatmeal?

There is only enough aluminum flake in it to "color" the oat granules.

the stuff functions by absorbing water and expanding, hopefully while a granule is caught in the crack that was leaking....

AllanD