Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Printing on nitrocellulose

Printing on nitrocellulose

killswitch - 2-2-2012 at 11:04

I have an interesting question to pose: how does one produce nitrocellulose (the fully-nitrated white kind that dissolves completely in acetone) of sufficient density and texture to closely approximate paper in appearance? I was also of the impression that most inks contain quick-drying solvents to enable them to remain liquid while in the reservoir. Do most of these use acetone, or do they use toluene or some other solvent? I don't want the nitropaper dissolving in the process of printing on it and would like to know which inks I can use. Likewise with the binding glue. (I am unsure of the feasibility of replacing the cardboard used in the cover with a nitrated equivalent; that might be asking too much).

I have seen NC sheets that disappear with a flash when held to a match, but am unsure under what circumstances, if any, that a book made from it could go high order.

As to why the hell I want to make an exploding book, it's simple curiosity, nothing more.

AirCowPeaCock - 2-2-2012 at 11:16

not curiosity..because an exploding book is bad-ass. Ive thought about taking a core sample from a tree and nitrating it, then putting it back in the tree and letting it grow back together or a year..then.... bye bye tree.. or maybe not?

Just a guess, but I doubt they use acetone--and I even doubt further that they use toluene. I think methanol is more likely.

[Edited on 2-2-2012 by AirCowPeaCock]

Bot0nist - 2-2-2012 at 11:29

It's hard to get NC to go full order. Especially if it isn't fully nitrated. It will be impossible to get a full piece of paper to ~13% N, let alone a chunk of wood! Micro-crystalline cellulose is the best substrate IIRC to get high nitrogen cellulose nitrate. You can make a book of flash paper, but you'll never get it to det.

ACPC, Definitely not.
Oh, and acetone is used to get NC lacquer. Not toluene or MeOH.

[Edited on 2-2-2012 by Bot0nist]

quicksilver - 2-2-2012 at 12:57

NC has an unusual property in that among many nitric ester it can produce a high-order or low-order explosion. This was one of the main issues that made it a candidate for a propellant as research provided a greater flexibility to is gas production upon stimulation via initiation. As a concept, the "weaponized-book" NC could detonate but the problem is that the fibrous material during nitration may not hold up to sufficient exposure to acids to create "pages". If the material were pulped, nitrated and then formed, risk of some level of explosion would also be risked (remember you would need to have a highly nitrated fiber). The use of polyester serves more than a single purpose in making a smokeless powder. It also protects the potentially sensitive NG and or NG from stimulation.

Certain types of cellulose may be nitrated higher than others. The toilet tissue designed to break-down quickly for septic systems or mobile homes and raw pulp are two examples. Paper that is commonly used for printing has a great many chemicals within it that do not allow an easy high nitration. Just as highly pure glycerin is needed for NG, a highly pure source of cellulose with an open-fiber construction are needed for a high nitration level. This is simply not an easy material to make into paper. And going the opposite way won't allow a 13% level to be achieved with a simple mixed acid due to all the impurities.
Many have used the toilet tissue that breaks down to make a nitrated cellulose that will explode upon impact from two hard surfaces. Impact sensitivity often indicates a higher level of nitration; however attempts of using a processed paper as a nitration precursor have often stopped at 11% or less.

Monroe (History of Shaped Charges) did compress his NC and the first experiments w/ shaped charges were through cotton batting. See: History of Torpedo Navel Station & Davis (pp18+) for history on NC and it's flexibility in use. Properly mfg NC with quality detonator is an extremely effective material. But to actually make an "explosive book" would have an enormous level of pitfalls to overcome. It MIGHT be possible on an extremely in-depth level however. There are chemicals that because of the environmental concerns are simply too difficult too obtain that are used in paper production that could achieve a high-level NC paper but one would need to understand paper production and through that; all the "un-obtainiums" that would be needed.

As a generalization, polar solvents often function with nitric esters but temperature plays a role as does exposure time.

phlogiston - 2-2-2012 at 13:09

I use nitrocellulose 'paper' all the time for biochemical work. It is often used in a common procedure called 'western blotting', used to detect specific proteins bound to the nitrocellulose membrane , and it is sold in large rolls of white paper-like sheet.

http://www.pall.com/images/Laboratory/061359-western-blottin...

Apart from the flammability aspect, the membrane behaves noticeably different from paper in several ways. Firstly, it is quite brittle. Secondly, static electricity causes it to stick to your hands very easily, which is annoying if you have to work with small pieces (although this is probably exacerbated by the fact that I have to work with it using gloves to prevent my fingerprints from contaminating it. Finally, it doesn't wet as easily as paper does, and, when dry, it doesn't absorb polar fluids very readily.

With regard to printing on it: writing on it with a variety of pens and pencils works fine, so printing may also work, although it would probably be best to use an ink that doesn't rely on absorbtion by the paper so much. I would try the inks available for printing on plastic overhead sheets with an inkjet.

killswitch - 2-2-2012 at 13:15

I was thinking more along the lines of allowing a layer of NC lacquer (in MEK rather than acetone) to slowly evaporate on a teflon surface, then if it turns out too thin, add another thin layer of saturated NC solution until the desired thickness is achieved. Perhaps the lacquer could be sandwiched between two nonstick surfaces to greatly slow down the evaporation. I've only ever seen extremely thin pieces of NC; would a larger, thicker piece act like paper?

killswitch - 2-2-2012 at 13:19

Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston

I use nitrocellulose 'paper' all the time for biochemical work. It is often used in a common procedure called 'western blotting', used to detect specific proteins bound to the nitrocellulose membrane , and it is sold in large rolls of white paper-like sheet.

http://www.pall.com/images/Laboratory/061359-western-blottin...

Apart from the flammability aspect, the membrane behaves noticeably different from paper in several ways. Firstly, it is quite brittle. Secondly, static electricity causes it to stick to your hands very easily, which is annoying if you have to work with small pieces (although this is probably exacerbated by the fact that I have to work with it using gloves to prevent my fingerprints from contaminating it. Finally, it doesn't wet as easily as paper does, and, when dry, it doesn't absorb polar fluids very readily.

With regard to printing on it: writing on it with a variety of pens and pencils works fine, so printing may also work, although it would probably be best to use an ink that doesn't rely on absorbtion by the paper so much. I would try the inks available for printing on plastic overhead sheets with an inkjet.

Ah. I see.

Edit: Is it pure cellulose trinitrate?

[Edited on 2-2-2012 by killswitch]

AirCowPeaCock - 2-2-2012 at 13:31

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist

It's hard to get NC to go full order. Especially if it isn't fully nitrated. It will be impossible to get a full piece of paper to ~13% N, let alone a chunk of wood! Micro-crystalline cellulose is the best substrate IIRC to get high nitrogen cellulose nitrate. You can make a book of flash paper, but you'll never get it to det.

ACPC, Definitely not.
Oh, and acetone is used to get NC lacquer. Not toluene or MeOH.
[Edited on 2-2-2012 by Bot0nist]

I was referring to ink solvent, I made NC Lacquer before my 14th birthday.

What If I used more powerful nitrating agents then HNO3-H2SO4? And It would be semi-confined--but a little wet. What if I used a blasting cap?--or is it hopeless.. sigh.

I have a tradition of taking down a tree using some..err..force every 4th.

Bot0nist - 2-2-2012 at 13:38

Quote: Originally posted by AirCowPeaCock

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist

What if I used a blasting cap?--or is it hopeless.. sigh.

How else do you intend to detonate NC? I recommend a hefty booster with some real brisance along with a good cap. Maybe TNP. Good luck. Be safe, and go easy on the trees...

No nitrating mixture could ever fully nitrate an intact piece of wood, IMO. Why NC anyways. If you just want to knock down a tree why not ANFO or a better nitric ester. Maybe ETN, PGDN, etc.

AirCowPeaCock - 2-2-2012 at 13:46

NC because the 'C' comes with the tree itself, and it could grow back into the tree. I'm not a an of ANFO, but I was thinking Id go PGDN this year.

Bot0nist - 2-2-2012 at 14:56

Yes, but the cellulose in the tree is not in an optimal form for nitrations. A live tree will grow around a lot of things. Even a film canister filled with (insert HE of choice). Check out the improvised det cord thread to see a slick way to cut a tree in a millisecond with a couple feet of vinyl tubing and some ETN.

AirCowPeaCock - 2-2-2012 at 16:03

I realized and concidered that, but it's just not as ironic! I suppose your right, its a hopeless cause, but a film canister filled with (still deciding) would be almost as cool.

Bot0nist - 2-2-2012 at 16:29

Yeah, blowing up trees is pretty k3wl, IMHO.

/sarcasm/

[Edited on 3-2-2012 by Bot0nist]

AirCowPeaCock - 2-2-2012 at 18:01

And a good way to get fire-wood :cool:

Thinkin' ETN with a little fuel--maybe Al, C, or NaC6H5CO2

[Edited on 2-3-2012 by AirCowPeaCock]

Bot0nist - 2-2-2012 at 19:11

That would do it, even without the pinch of fuel needed to equal the OB.
Lets not sway to far of topic or towards application, rather, the chemistry. If you have notes on the ETN's synthesis you could post the details in one of the ETN threads. There is a lot of really good stuff pertaining to erythritol tetranitrate around here. If the ETN does not yet exist, then it would be really useful to read all of the threads about ETN, especially this one by aquaregaia.

<a href="http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=16612#pid211998">ETN: almost killed myself... READ!</a>

It is a versatile material that preforms very well and is not to bad to synthesize OTC. There is also some really good stuff on some really simple and effective plasticizers/tackifyers(sp?). Some can be found one the last few pages of the "Unconventional Shaped Charges" thread. Also, I believe QS posted a PDF on some great notes including high yield synthesis and plasticizing techniques. I'm telling you, the search engine is your friend. Once you learn how to tickle it just right (or us google 'site:' search) and you will have weeks worth of reading material.So much knowledge to be assimilated.

Back to the original topic of cellulose nitrate, NC lacquer, and cellulose nitrate detonations. Again, the search engine is our best friend in the world. I my self have posted detailed notes on the synthesis in a few threads. A great deal of discussion has already been had, fairly recently, about getting , and determining if you have gotten the high nitrogen content (>= 13%, IIRC) that you need to have effective HE material. This can be done with conc. H2SO4 and an anhydrous nitrate salt. Many support that NH4NO3 is better for many reasons, and I agree, but NaNO3 and KNO3 work great. I seems to be all about the starting cellulose substrate as well.

If your curious, get the reagents and run some test. Grab some good rooto sulfuric acid and a instant coldpack. Follow a successful procedure to make a nitrating bath, and then nitrate some different sources of cellulose(cotton balls, toilet paper,etc) and nitrate each in the same amount of acid/salt mix, for the same amount of time, at the same temp, with the same amount of stirring. etc, etc. Only change the variable of the substrate. Wash and neutralize, dry, and run some tests. Start with maybe a burn speed and residue observation, then make a thick lacquer with a drop of acetone (to increase density) and let it dry. Wrap in one layer of foil and put it on a steel or smooth iron anvil (I use a dockplate mounted in concrete) drop a metal weight or hammer from a set distance (so to be able to calculate force of impact) and do some impact sensitivity tests. In my mind, the most sensitive to a hammer blow will be most sensitive to a initiation via explosive train, if properly designed

Moral of the long story I guess is, USFSE! ( Use The Forum Search Engine

)

[Edited on 3-2-2012 by Bot0nist]

phlogiston - 3-2-2012 at 01:30

Quote:

Edit: Is it pure cellulose trinitrate?

The specs don't explicitly say so. It there any way find out easily? It burns rapidly, leaving no residue. It is white, with no hint of yellow and dissolves well in acetone.

From a common manufacturer's product manual:
"Protran nitrocellulose from Whatman is produced from carefully
selected and validated raw materialsusing 100% pure nitrocellulose
to ensure highest binding capacity and performance in biomolecule
detection. "

quicksilver - 3-2-2012 at 12:37

Nitrocellulose can easily range from just under 11% to just over 13%. The level of nitration makes a substantial difference.

killswitch - 4-2-2012 at 11:24

Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston

Quote:

Edit: Is it pure cellulose trinitrate?

What happens to it when immersed in a saturated solution of trinitrophenol for thirty minutes, then allowed to dry on a watch glass?

[Edited on 4-2-2012 by killswitch]

killswitch - 4-2-2012 at 11:50

If the book were very large (on the order of a Psychiatrist's directory of medications) and held shut with a clasp, could the mass undergo a DDT if it were between 11 and 13% nitrogen?

phlogiston - 4-2-2012 at 13:02

killswitch, I can try that sometime this week. What am I looking for? (i.e. color, smell, spontaneous reactions, ..?)
What solvent? Water (in which picric acid is only moderately soluble)? Ethanol? acetone (which will dissolve NC as well)?

killswitch - 4-2-2012 at 16:22

Water is fine. The sheets should still be somewhat able to bend without cracking.

I'm looking to see if picric acid would catalyze the NC's decomposition.

[Edited on 5-2-2012 by killswitch]

killswitch - 4-2-2012 at 16:33

Also interesting would be doing the same test, but with a KMnO4 solution (yes, yes, even less soluble). If the NC appears aged, and has enough oxidizer impregnated into the fibers, it might be able to undergo DDT quite readily.

I'm wondering if there is a simple way to create a book that spontaneously ignites a somewhat set period after being opened...

Bot0nist - 5-2-2012 at 07:46

What are you going on about? Why any nitrocellulose at all if your wanting a hypothetical "weaponized book." If you already have TNP, just hollow out pages, place bursting charge inside.

killswitch - 5-2-2012 at 09:47

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist

What are you going on about? Why any nitrocellulose at all if your wanting a hypothetical "weaponized book." If you already have TNP, just hollow out pages, place bursting charge inside.

I'm not trying to smuggle a bomb onto a plane, dude!

I'm trying to make a book (though I might have to settle for a scroll) that will catch fire and disappear without a trace while it is being read, but would look like a book and could actually be read (at least until it ignites). Specifically, I'm thinking of making a self-igniting copy of Pseudomonarchia Daemonum, the Lesser Key of Solomon, or maybe even the Necronomicon, just to see how gullible the rest of my friends are.

Though if pure NC has the static properties of a brand-new garbage bag, I may have to tax my creativity somewhat...

[Edited on 5-2-2012 by killswitch]

Bot0nist - 5-2-2012 at 10:41

I am pretty sure you were talking about a detonating book. Not one that burns while reading IIRC. Just get a few prices of 100% cotton paper and nitrate them with a salt acid mix. Wwash and neutralize. Once dry, cut into pages and make a little booklet. You could even use NC lacquer as the glue for the bindings. Attach an e-match to the book and wha-la. Your just making flash paper. Don't overcomplicate it.

killswitch - 5-2-2012 at 13:23

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist

I am pretty sure you were talking about a detonating book. Not one that burns while reading IIRC. Just get a few prices of 100% cotton paper and nitrate them with a salt acid mix. Wwash and neutralize. Once dry, cut into pages and make a little booklet. You could even use NC lacquer as the glue for the bindings. Attach an e-match to the book and wha-la. Your just making flash paper. Don't overcomplicate it.

Well, the complicated part is that I'm trying to set it up so that it deflagrates spontaneously, ideally after being exposed to light and air for a brief period. Perhaps soaking the middle of one sheet with potassium permanganate solution or adding a tiny drop of red fuming nitric acid? I was under the impression that there was a method for producing time-delayed ignition of paper using nitric acid, but I never learned how to control it...

Bot0nist - 5-2-2012 at 13:28

Make a small patch on the book made of potassium chlorate and sugar and touch it with a drop of sulfuric acid.

Intergalactic_Captain - 8-2-2012 at 02:27

Wow - Your mention of a scroll just made it all possible in a reusable manner - And all the ignition parts are abailable at radioshack for under $10...

The central rod of your scroll has a 555 in one-shot mode, the trigger being a phototransistor and the delay being 30 seconds or so - The load is connected to a model-rocket style ignitor and the battery is an SOCl2 cell - If you've got a lathe or can handle a drill like a jedi you can fit the entire circuit in a 1/2" (or maybe smaller) dowel... One corner of the scroll is tapered out in such a way that the light sensor is exposed and trips the timer as soon as it is unraveled...

As for the paper, I would go for a fine, tight-knit but thin cloth and dope it heavily in NC lacquer - You'd have a continuous sheet with some stability to it, which would easily catch flame on ignition - As a plus, the virgin fabric should smolder in a random for some time and give it that extra hellish vibe.

...Just a thought... You could have a LOT of fun with something like that if you know the right people...

quicksilver - 8-2-2012 at 11:54

In the USA there were many of the Super Fund clean-ups of various polluter and paper mills were one of the notorious ones. TTBoMK there are a great deal of additives in common linen, bond, and pulp paper. I don't have the facts at my finger-tips however the level of additives are fairly significant. I can find some of the chemicals used to make paper "adhere as a fibrous flat material" but in all likelihood it's would vary with the type. Some background on Monroe's experiments with NC lead me to believe that in order to get a nitration to 12+ % one must have a fairly pure precursor.

As an overall concept of "energetic paper" using the "type face" as the energetic (let's say NG) one also has the complication of how to apply the energetic ink. Common plate printing, an "ink-jet" style or a laser style would be a risk that would exceed the boundaries of any safety level even IF some form of "pure" cellulose-form paper could be developed. Just as an intellectual exercise, this is no small task.

phlogiston - 15-2-2012 at 16:11

Quote:

What happens to it when immersed in a saturated solution of trinitrophenol for thirty minutes, then allowed to dry on a watch glass?

I tried it yesterday. Immersed a piece of nitrocellulose paper in a few ml of the water that is used to keep the trinitrophenol wet during storage, which should therefore be saturated at room temp.

The nitrocellulose paper turned bright yellow as it was wetted by the TNP solution. (it doesn't soak up large quantities, however, as it does not appear to be very fibrous like regular paper). When I took it out after half an hour, I could not observe any differences except for the color. It was still flexible, perhaps a bit more than in a dry state. Upon drying, the yellow color turned much fainter. When completely dry, the paper was still noticeably yellow, but a lot less than before. I lit it and it burned at pretty much the same rate as before (which is pretty quick), leaving no residue or smoke.

killswitch - 18-2-2012 at 13:47

Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston

Quote:

What happens to it when immersed in a saturated solution of trinitrophenol for thirty minutes, then allowed to dry on a watch glass?

Interesting. Most interesting.

Enthusiastic thanks for your contribution!