Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Steam distillations

GreenD - 28-1-2012 at 09:49

What would be some good plant material to do steam distillations on to get chemically useful oils?

I'm going to do it on some cloves.

I'd like to do it on some roses but it is winter here now and ordering a bunch of roses would be ridiculous.

Maybe some pepper?

Does anyone also know of a good distillation set up with 24/40 glassware? I had found one before but you had to buy the entire kit >300$.

I have the condensers, RBFs, heating mantle, etc - I just don't know of an appropriate housing apparatus for the solid material. (I've heard that having a mixture of solid organics / water is less efficient than the steam simply running through the solid organics).

...thanks

Neil - 28-1-2012 at 10:04

Do you live near a swamp/sea shore? Look for bay leaves if you are in the right climate - they are ever greens, You can get eugenol from them.

You could also distil some orange peels or pine needles.

(Orange oil in methanol strips anything off of anything)

White Yeti - 28-1-2012 at 10:51

Rosemary? I especially love the fragrances of spices. Oregano is another one. What about wintergreen? Where I live, wintergreen is just a short hike away, even during the winter (duh, winter-green).

kuro96inlaila - 29-1-2012 at 00:33

I don't recommend roses for beginner,because the yeild are so low.
You can distill bunch of it and only got a drop of it,though.
Beginner will sure be bored if trying to distill this for the first time.

Anyway,the hardwork worth it,roses oil's fragrance are so strong that if you dilute small amount of it in large amount of water,the fragrance will be clearly noticed.

GreenD - 30-1-2012 at 08:57

I attempted winter-green (or some other in the mint family) - I either picked it too soon (not sure?) or didn't have enough. I somehow ended up with an aqueuos green distillate that reaked something awful. No visible oil, but the aquoues was cloudy. Not sure how chlorophyll got into the distillate but I guess.

I use orange peels to get paint off my fingernails - works like nothing else ;).

Does anyone know the name of the "bulb" for distilling? I have trouble finding it. Its just a large bulb, like a RBF, but has an additional neck at the bottom of the bulb.

GreenD - 30-1-2012 at 09:00

It is called an "alembic" - still can't find one for sale though.

UnintentionalChaos - 30-1-2012 at 09:09

You could probably get away with using a kuderna-danish flask.

GreenD - 30-1-2012 at 09:44

Yes, unfortunately the joints are not fun - one is 19/22 and the other is 24/40 which doesn't make sense to me!

most of my glassware is 24/40.

GreenD - 30-1-2012 at 09:55

wow its called a reservoir flask ...
thanks me!

ITS THE SAME THING AS CHROMATOGRAPHY. Oi I'm stupid

[Edited on 30-1-2012 by GreenD]

Neil - 30-1-2012 at 10:31

If you want winter green oil go for the inner bark of a Yellow Birch, the extract will be low in the winter.


UnintentionalChaos - 30-1-2012 at 10:35

Quote: Originally posted by Neil  
If you want winter green oil go for the inner bark of a Yellow Birch, the extract will be low in the winter.




I think you mean black birch/sweet birch (Betula lenta). I don't think that the methyl salicylate concentration is related to the sap flow, though I could be wrong.

Probably one of the highest yielding things you could distill is orange rind. There is very little essential oil in most other materials

[Edited on 1-30-12 by UnintentionalChaos]

GreenD - 30-1-2012 at 11:09

Clove oil is considerable amount. I distilled it in an academic lab with SC CO2. The amount, by eyeballing (can't remember numbers) was nearly 20% v/v! We also hydrogenated the eugenol I think.

Neil - 30-1-2012 at 11:15

I am not familer with black birch, I does not grow where I live. A little google search on it suggests that it produces much more methyl salicylate then the Yellow Birch (Betula alleghaniensis). I have not distilled any of the inner bark myself but I use it to cook while out in the bush and find it is very strong - but I do not think the tree can be tapped for the sap the way Black Birch is?


I have noticed that the flavor and strength of the sap goes down as the season ends, but thats based on chomping on pieces not any sort of real measurement.



So... go find some Black Birch if you have it... Sweet Gale (myricia Gale iirc) drupes may yield some interesting extracts, the catkins and leaves certainly do.

White Yeti - 30-1-2012 at 13:48

What about sassafras?

The fragrance of sassafras is by far my favourite. It's a shame that safrole is carcinogenic. But what the hell, background radiation is carcinogenic too:). As long as you don't drink it, you should be fine.

GreenD - 30-1-2012 at 14:13

Yeti-I know a man who attempted it large scale (55 gallon drum was his biomass container) - he said it was such a hassle that he decided to concede and called up China. :P

White Yeti - 30-1-2012 at 16:39

Quote: Originally posted by GreenD  
Yeti-I know a man who attempted it large scale (55 gallon drum was his biomass container) - he said it was such a hassle that he decided to concede and called up China. :P


I'm not surprised, steam distillation of essential oils is a very time consuming and energy intensive procedure. There is so little oil per gram of substance that the only way to make it work is large scale. You can't dry the material because you'd bet rid of the oils in the process. You can't mash up the material either because you run the risk of getting it to pack too tightly, the steam would then condense midway through your plant material.

I wanted to try out some steam distillation for fun half a year ago, but considering my material constraints, it'll take a long time before I get any steam distillation to work.

I do have some ideas on how to build a cheap steam distillation apparatus. If you collect some fairly large tin cans and get rid of the bottoms, you can stack them up to make a column, which you can fill with leaves and what not. The steam generator is fairly straight forward, just save a similarly sized tin can and make that the bottom of your still where you will boil the water. Make sure you put some kind of separator so as to prevent plant matter from falling into your steam generator.
seal everything with some duck (not duct) tape.
[edit]
Forgot about the condenser. For the condenser, take a polyurethane tube and make a "U" or coil in a tub of ice cold water to get the vapours to condense.

[Edited on 1-31-2012 by White Yeti]

Neil - 30-1-2012 at 18:18

Given the weird solvents you get in plant oils, you may want to make your diy condenser out of something like copper, glass or stainless to insure there is no leaching or absorbing going on with the tube.

White Yeti - 30-1-2012 at 18:29

You're right, but I don't think there's enough oil in plants to react with the tin cans.[speculation] tin cans are designed to be quite inert, so they shouldn't react with anything that is derived from plants at least not at the concentrations found in unrefined plant material [/speculation off].

Sidenote: Does anyone have one of these bad boys?

[edit]
I'm sorry, I misread your post.

You're right again, I should make the condenser out of something more inert, copper is expensive, glass can crack. How about bubbling the gases directly into some cold water. The oils would simply float to the top where they can be poured off.

[Edited on 1-31-2012 by White Yeti]

entropy51 - 30-1-2012 at 18:37

Quote: Originally posted by White Yeti  
But what the hell, background radiation is carcinogenic too
Actually that may not be true. Although controversial, there is considerable data supporting the concept of radiation hormesis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hormesis
There is some evidence that people living in high background regions, such as those in India where there is a lot of naturally occurring Thorium, have a low incidence of cancer and increased longevity. Although I have published papers showing that a low dose of radiation protects mice against a subsequent higher dose of radiation, I would not argue that these data can necessarily be extrapolated to humans. But it has made me reconsider the possibly beneficial effects of low dose background radiation.

[Edited on 31-1-2012 by entropy51]

Neil - 30-1-2012 at 18:38

A number of us do, you can find them for under 30usd if you keep checking EBay.

Neil - 30-1-2012 at 18:42

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Quote: Originally posted by White Yeti  
But what the hell, background radiation is carcinogenic too
Actually that may not be true. Although controversial, there is considerable data supporting the concept of radiation hormesis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hormesis
There is some evidence that people living in high background regions, such as those in India where there is a lot of naturally occurring Thorium, have a low incidence of cancer and increased longevity. Although I have published papers showing that a low dose of radiation protects mice against a subsequent higher dose of radiation, I would not argue that these data can necessarily be extrapolated to humans. But it has made me reconsider the possibly beneficial effects of low dose background radiation.

[Edited on 31-1-2012 by entropy51]


Any data coming out of Bikini atoll or from Ukraine that matches with the mice results?

White Yeti - 30-1-2012 at 18:48

Interesting...
I guess you can say everything is beneficial in moderation. I think that cancer really arises when one has a weak immune system. Outside factors can influence the likelihood of developing a tumour, but the immune system is a key player as well.

With that said, I think the #1 cause for cancer is immunosupressant drugs, allergy medication and what not. It's no wonder why there are more cases of cancer in the past few decades compared to the two or three centuries that came before.

GreenD - 30-1-2012 at 19:44

For the derailment on cancer; go check "burzynski + cancer" by utfse - I watched the documentary with intense skepticism. but by the 11th court charge, the tangental governmental patenting, and the FDA website backing up all of the occurrences in the documentary, I have conceded that he is correct in his 'cure' for terminal brain cancers.

Back on subject - a soxhlet for 30$? I can't even get a reservoir flask for that cheap. A Soxhlet is good for not steam distillations :D

[Edited on 31-1-2012 by GreenD]

Sedit - 30-1-2012 at 22:34

If you are just starting off I suggest either Lavender oil or Sassafrass oil. Both are high yeilding and pleasent to the senses. Cloves however have a certine bite that would quickly make you despise the scent of it in short order.

GreenD - 31-1-2012 at 07:05

Sassafras oil is less than 1% w/w. Getting my hands on some safrole would be excellent (for the authorities).

Actually I've heard American sassafras has no safrole, only asian varieties/species.

GreenD - 4-2-2012 at 13:56

Would distilling tap water leave any contaminants? Chlorine or otherwise?

White Yeti - 4-2-2012 at 17:52

Yes, (if you don't have a softener) tap water is usually loaded with calcium bicarbonate, which turns into calcium carbonate upon boiling, leaving a nasty deposit. The best you could do is collect rainwater, which is distilled by definition.