Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Nitrate salt synthesis

weiming1998 - 19-1-2012 at 03:52

It is very hard to buy nitrate salts/nitric acid where I live (cold packs are urea and fertilizers have only a tiny amount of nitrate in them.) So far, the only routes to nitrate salt/nitric acid I know of are these:
.Oxidation of ammonia, then bubble gases through water. (requires expensive catalyst tubes/etc)
.Arc furnace-produced nitrogen dioxide (don't have arc-furnace and likely to be extremely expensive
.Oxidation of ammonia by ozone (produces ammonium nitrate) (My ozone generator only produces 400mg ozone/hour)
.Nitrite salts (can't get them)
.Fermentation of urine/manure (very disgusting and will stink/take a long time)
So, does anyone here know how to make nitrate salt/nitric acid or even nitrite salts?

Disclaimer: I am not using nitrate salts for pyrotechnics/explosives (I already have potassium chlorate for pyrotechnics and I am never going to make explosives)
I just want to explore some nitrate chemistry and possibly make some aqua regia for gold plating.

Bot0nist - 19-1-2012 at 04:27

Don't you have YouTube.

Check out making niter beds. IT was all the craze in Ye-ole days. It was even mandated by governments in some wartime eras when black powder was in high demand.

phlogiston - 19-1-2012 at 04:40

I recently experimented a bit with ammonia oxidation, and I think the resulsts suggest that plain copper wire may also work as a catalyst.

I just stuffed some fine copper wire (from mains electrical wiring) into a glass tube (pasteur's pipette), through which I drew a flow of air. As soon as I held the inlet over a concentrated ammonia solution, the copper would glow white hot, eventually melting the glass and copper wire. It was necessary to preheat the tube/copper a bit with a torch to get the reaction started but as soon as the ammonia entered the tube it was self-sustaining.

I also did the same experiment with a small diameter (about 3 mm) titanium-platinum alloy tube which behaved similarly (but did not melt). These tubes are rather expensive, though.

weiming1998 - 19-1-2012 at 04:55

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
Don't you have YouTube.

Check out making niter beds. IT was all the craze in Ye-ole days. It was even mandated by governments in some wartime eras when black powder was in high demand.


Niter beds requires manure. I don't have manure. I suppose I could buy manure from garden supply stores, but it's going to stink my backyard real bad. Also, it takes months and years to generate a little bit of impure potassium nitrate.

weiming1998 - 19-1-2012 at 04:59

Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston  
I recently experimented a bit with ammonia oxidation, and I think the resulsts suggest that plain copper wire may also work as a catalyst.

I just stuffed some fine copper wire (from mains electrical wiring) into a glass tube (pasteur's pipette), through which I drew a flow of air. As soon as I held the inlet over a concentrated ammonia solution, the copper would glow white hot, eventually melting the glass and copper wire. It was necessary to preheat the tube/copper a bit with a torch to get the reaction started but as soon as the ammonia entered the tube it was self-sustaining.

I also did the same experiment with a small diameter (about 3 mm) titanium-platinum alloy tube which behaved similarly (but did not melt). These tubes are rather expensive, though.


The equipment on actually oxidizing the ammonia, then bubbling it through water, are going to be hard to find. I could substitute an iron tube for the glass tube part. Then I need something to contain ammonia, then bubbling the substance through water, etc...
I'll have a hard time building this, but I might do it anyway
Thanks for the help though.

Pulverulescent - 19-1-2012 at 06:24

Can't you just buy it on ebay?

P

AirCowPeaCock - 19-1-2012 at 07:47

Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  
Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston  
I recently experimented a bit with ammonia oxidation, and I think the resulsts suggest that plain copper wire may also work as a catalyst.

I just stuffed some fine copper wire (from mains electrical wiring) into a glass tube (pasteur's pipette), through which I drew a flow of air. As soon as I held the inlet over a concentrated ammonia solution, the copper would glow white hot, eventually melting the glass and copper wire. It was necessary to preheat the tube/copper a bit with a torch to get the reaction started but as soon as the ammonia entered the tube it was self-sustaining.

I also did the same experiment with a small diameter (about 3 mm) titanium-platinum alloy tube which behaved similarly (but did not melt). These tubes are rather expensive, though.


The equipment on actually oxidizing the ammonia, then bubbling it through water, are going to be hard to find. I could substitute an iron tube for the glass tube part. Then I need something to contain ammonia, then bubbling the substance through water, etc...
I'll have a hard time building this, but I might do it anyway
Thanks for the help though.


The equipment is very minimal..you ought to be able to pick all of it up from a surplus store for less than 20$...depending on your scale.. Glass tubes, stoppers, flask, beaker..that's all you need! whats so hard about that? And in my experience cold packs have at-least an ounce of NH4NO3, and as I've heard mix that with a little hydrochloric acid and you have a NH4Cl-HNO3 solution, easy to distil if you have glass on glass distillation. Check out Nurdrages video on nitric acid, he shows a crude distillation process only involving three beakers and a bit of distilled water and copper.

[Edited on 1-19-2012 by AirCowPeaCock]

Bot0nist - 19-1-2012 at 08:07

"And in my experience cold packs have at-least an ounce of NH4NO3, and as I've heard mix that with a little nitric acid and you have a NH4Cl-HNO3 solution, easy to distil if you have glass on glass distillation." ~ APCP

I get between 50-55g of ammonium nitrate from cold packs (dried weight) on average. (It's the "Large size.)

neptunium - 19-1-2012 at 08:27

i dont know about the cold packs anymore ...5 or 6 years ago maybe but in the US today...i doubt the quantity and quality...
there is a video on youtube this dude makes nitric acid with an old neon transformer and hydrogen peroxide..i tried it with an old bottle of Jack Daniel and a fridge compressor continuously bubbling NO2 in the H2O2... 3% works but get the 12% (40volume) clairoxide (hair bleach)from the beauty supply store

after letting it run overnight (make sure it wont overheat though..) you`ll get a descent quality HNO3 depand on your set up you can let it run a week and get a good quantity

Bot0nist - 19-1-2012 at 08:36

You shouldn't generalize. I bout 170g of NH<sub>4</sub>NO<sub>3</sub> last weekend at the dollar store in cold packs and I'm in SE USA. Only lost 6% after recrystallization. It is very pure ammonium nitrate. The urea one are out there. That's why we read ingredients and MSDS's though. There are a few threads on this. One I posted in is called "cold pack disappointment." I believe.

[Edited on 19-1-2012 by Bot0nist]

AirCowPeaCock - 19-1-2012 at 08:54

sorry guys, I ment HCl! but you probably realized that...

AirCowPeaCock - 19-1-2012 at 08:58

I got alot from a cold pack last year and I'm definitely in the US. I'm not that interested in NH4NO3 unless I need N2O, but I don't usually have much use for that--oxygen works just fine. You can also get KNO3 stump remover by the pound for less than 5$ a pound, and mix it with some sulfuric acid drain cleaner (mines 95%). Don't be so pessimistic..

entropy51 - 19-1-2012 at 14:52

Quote: Originally posted by neptunium  
i dont know about the cold packs anymore ...5 or 6 years ago maybe but in the US today...i doubt the quantity and quality...
You aren't shopping in the right store. Ive been getting CVS cold packs that have 120 grams each of very good NH4NO3, two cold packs per box.

But I just scored 3 pounds of good KNO3 stump remover so I won't need cold packs for a while.

S.C. Wack - 19-1-2012 at 15:55

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=11388

weiming1998 - 19-1-2012 at 17:03

Quote: Originally posted by Pulverulescent  
Can't you just buy it on ebay?

P


As I said before, I am not allowed to buy things off Ebay, plus the police might track the order to my house and search my lab, and they'll find a lot of interesting things or maybe claim me as try to make illegal fireworks.

weiming1998 - 19-1-2012 at 17:08

Quote: Originally posted by AirCowPeaCock  
I got alot from a cold pack last year and I'm definitely in the US. I'm not that interested in NH4NO3 unless I need N2O, but I don't usually have much use for that--oxygen works just fine. You can also get KNO3 stump remover by the pound for less than 5$ a pound, and mix it with some sulfuric acid drain cleaner (mines 95%). Don't be so pessimistic..


I asked for stump remover at Bunnings and another shop, and all they gave me is this weird tree killer that had some obscure ester of some sort. Also, no sulfuric acid drain cleaners. They are all (impure) sodium hydroxide ones. Some of them are even enzyme drain cleaners.

weiming1998 - 19-1-2012 at 17:13

Quote: Originally posted by AirCowPeaCock  
Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  
Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston  
I recently experimented a bit with ammonia oxidation, and I think the resulsts suggest that plain copper wire may also work as a catalyst.

I just stuffed some fine copper wire (from mains electrical wiring) into a glass tube (pasteur's pipette), through which I drew a flow of air. As soon as I held the inlet over a concentrated ammonia solution, the copper would glow white hot, eventually melting the glass and copper wire. It was necessary to preheat the tube/copper a bit with a torch to get the reaction started but as soon as the ammonia entered the tube it was self-sustaining.

I also did the same experiment with a small diameter (about 3 mm) titanium-platinum alloy tube which behaved similarly (but did not melt). These tubes are rather expensive, though.


The equipment on actually oxidizing the ammonia, then bubbling it through water, are going to be hard to find. I could substitute an iron tube for the glass tube part. Then I need something to contain ammonia, then bubbling the substance through water, etc...
I'll have a hard time building this, but I might do it anyway
Thanks for the help though.


The equipment is very minimal..you ought to be able to pick all of it up from a surplus store for less than 20$...depending on your scale.. Glass tubes, stoppers, flask, beaker..that's all you need! whats so hard about that? And in my experience cold packs have at-least an ounce of NH4NO3, and as I've heard mix that with a little hydrochloric acid and you have a NH4Cl-HNO3 solution, easy to distil if you have glass on glass distillation. Check out Nurdrages video on nitric acid, he shows a crude distillation process only involving three beakers and a bit of distilled water and copper.

[Edited on 1-19-2012 by AirCowPeaCock]


I am very short on professional glassware. I don't have anything to distil with (you know the glass tube?) And I can't buy any, chemistry supply stores won't sell to individuals.

Also, I don't have a neon sign transformer. I'll be looking for one, but don't have one right now.

entropy51 - 19-1-2012 at 17:56

Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  
I asked for stump remover at Bunnings and another shop, and all they gave me is this weird tree killer that had some obscure ester of some sort. Also, no sulfuric acid drain cleaners. They are all (impure) sodium hydroxide ones. Some of them are even enzyme drain cleaners.
It's getting harder to find chemicals everywhere. I looked for about two years for that KNO3 stump remover before I finally found it, and I bought the last 3 pounds on the shelf. None of the hardware stores carry muriatic acid or Rooto anymore, although they still have a sulfuric based drain opener that is OK for making HCl or HNO3, but not much else. I was formerly able to buy KMnO4 by the pound locally, but that's disappeared as well. The grocery stores used to have pure NaOH, but no more. THe hardware stores still carry it though, for now. It's been said before: if you find something good in the store, stock up!

AirCowPeaCock - 19-1-2012 at 20:20

Wow, life must suck for you guys, I can pick up all the technical grade ammonia(10%), sulfuric acid (95%), powdered sodium hydroxide I want from menards. And all the sodium metabisulfate and potassium nitrate I want from an obscure gardening store, all the NH4NO3 from the drug store..no problem..

But maybe I should stock up...

[Edited on 1-20-2012 by AirCowPeaCock]

weiming1998 - 19-1-2012 at 22:10

I can buy relatively pure sodium hydroxide just a few months ago, now it's drain cleaner crap that is contaminated massively with aluminum, etc. Ammonia is only 2-4%, cold packs all urea, and some times I can't even find them. Absolutely no nitrate fertilizers without a ton of contaminants, only 3-6% hydrogen peroxide can be found, iodine supplements all kelp instead of sodium/potassium iodide, Hydrochloric acid can only be found in a specialized pool shop, in Bunnings they don't even sell sodium bisulfate (pH down) anymore. Can't buy freaking POOL CHEMICALS without the workers asking questions and saying how buying sodium thiosulfate is a waste of money. Sulfuric acid is nowhere to be found, etc. Chemicals in China, the country I used to live in, is not even as strictly regulating chemicals as Western Australia. I imagine in a few years, not even baking soda and vinegar is going to be found, and everything in the hardware store is heavily contaminated on purpose. This is no different than outright banning amateur chemistry.

weiming1998 - 19-1-2012 at 22:12

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  
I asked for stump remover at Bunnings and another shop, and all they gave me is this weird tree killer that had some obscure ester of some sort. Also, no sulfuric acid drain cleaners. They are all (impure) sodium hydroxide ones. Some of them are even enzyme drain cleaners.
It's getting harder to find chemicals everywhere. I looked for about two years for that KNO3 stump remover before I finally found it, and I bought the last 3 pounds on the shelf. None of the hardware stores carry muriatic acid or Rooto anymore, although they still have a sulfuric based drain opener that is OK for making HCl or HNO3, but not much else. I was formerly able to buy KMnO4 by the pound locally, but that's disappeared as well. The grocery stores used to have pure NaOH, but no more. THe hardware stores still carry it though, for now. It's been said before: if you find something good in the store, stock up!


The problem is, I can't even seem to find good chemicals anymore, and if it is good, it is hell expensive (50g potassium permanganate for $10 dollars!)

AirCowPeaCock - 20-1-2012 at 09:52

I wouldn't call 50g KMnO4 hella expensive, due to its oxidation properties its somewhat expensive to ship. Id spend 10$ for 50g KMnO4, but maybe that's just me. I think maybe, hopefully, eventually they'll give up on the chemical restriction because they will realize given enough effort meth and RDX can be made from shit. And I don't think they're going to be taking my shit away anytime soon..but maybe not, I see a disturbing trend towards totalitarianism in the US...I keep thinking 1984--if you know what I mean. It's honestly scary, especially the tea party and the GOP..

weiming1998 - 20-1-2012 at 15:55

Or maybe not, and they're going to even ban chemistry experiments in school. All that is left for students to learn is theory. Anyway, back to the main subject:

From this post, I can see there's only 5 routes for me to make/get a nitrate salt/nitric acid:

:Niter beds, which aren't very convenient and will take a long time.
:Oxdation of ammonia. Seems to work at first, but How do I get enough oxygen for the ammonia to combust, even if there is a catalyst?
: Neon sign transformer+ air: This is the only plausible one, but I can't find a neon sign transformer. Does any of you know where to get one/buy one?
:Searching for more stores, or
:Buying off Ebay (I have to persuade my parents then)

[Edited on 20-1-2012 by weiming1998]

Bot0nist - 20-1-2012 at 16:03

Quote:
The process for making saltpeter is very similar to that for making potash, the chief difference being the starting material. The soluble part of wood ash is mostly potassium carbonate and so when we purify it by recrystalization, the resulting product is purified potassium carbonate. The soluble part of these manurial soils are mostly mixed nitrates. The reason for this is that while the original animal waste may have had a wide variety of soluble materials, as the water wicked up through the soil and evaporated, the less soluble parts fell out of solution as it became more and more concentrated. Only the most soluble parts, in this case the nitrates, made it to the top of the soil and when the last bit of moisture evaporated, they were deposited as a white crust on the surface.

So the beginning of primitive saltpeter production is to collect this white crust leaving behind as much as possible the underlying soil. Of the three nitrates present, potassium nitrate is the one we need. To extract it, we use a metathesis reaction in much the same way that we have previously produced lye:
Ca(NO3)2(aq) + K2CO3(aq) -----> CaCO3(s) + 2 KNO3(aq)

This removes all the calcium as insoluble calcium carbonate leaving mostly potassium nitrate and a little sodium and potassium carbonate which can be further separated out by repeated recrystalizations in much the same way that we produced potash.

Saltpeter has been mined in Virginia, particularly in the dry caves of the Shenendoah valley. Most of the nitrate mined today comes from Chile and is called "Chile Saltpeter," which is chiefly sodium nitrate. However, most of the nitrate used in explosives and agriculture is today derived from nitrogen in the air
~ http://www.cavemanchemistry.com/oldcave/projects/gunpowder/i...
Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
KNO<sub>3</sub> can be extracted from manurial soil using wood ash(for potassium carbonate I think). A useful purity can be obtained by recrystallization using ethanol to precipitate out the less soluble salts. Make sure the soil has been protected from direct rainfall.



Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
I once found an old collapsed barn in an overgrown pine grove. The barn had collapsed in such a way that the roof (Tin I guess) was suspended about 1/1/2 to 2 feet off the ground. It looked to be at least 50-70 years old, at least. Underneath the roofing was a bunch of dusty soil and decomposed hay and it all had a fine layer of visible salts on the surface. I used the 55 gal drum method and got a good bit of nitrate salts when I was finished. I assume the barn had housed horses or livestock, which must have contributed to the large deposits of nitrates. The finished product worked great in ball milled black powder after a few recrystallizations. I had to increase the proportion of it to obtain suitable burn speeds though. I attributed this to impurities that I couldn't (with my current know how;)) purify it any further. [Edited on 3-3-2011 by Bot0nist]


[Edited on 21-1-2012 by Bot0nist]

weiming1998 - 20-1-2012 at 16:33

So pouring soil into a barrel and dissolving all the solubles in it, then precipate with K2CO3? No problem, I can make K2CO3 from K2SO4 and Na2CO3. I'll try this.

entropy51 - 20-1-2012 at 17:46

Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  
Neon sign transformer+ air: This is the only plausible one, but I can't find a neon sign transformer. Does any of you know where to get one/buy one?
:Searching for more stores, or
:Buying off Ebay (I have to persuade my parents then)
Neon sign transformers are easy to find. Most neon shops have a big pile of old ones out back that they will be glad to get rid of.

Failing that, Information Unlimited has a good selection and I have bought a couple from them. They are not giving them away. See http://www.amazing1.com/HV-C-L-Transformers.htm

But personally I think this is a silly way to make HNO3. THe nitrates are out there in the hardware, drug and garden shops.

weiming1998 - 20-1-2012 at 18:19

Oh god, they're so expensive! $199? And as I said before, I have looked in drugs stores, hardware stores and garden stores. But all I found was a fertilizer with only about 10% nitrate, with about 15 chemicals mixed in. All nitrate salts/all potassium salts are soluble, so I can't separate by precipation.

Also, would a microwave transformer do the trick? Because I got a spare one.

[Edited on 21-1-2012 by weiming1998]

cyanureeves - 20-1-2012 at 18:26

i must agree with entropy51. nitric acid without nitrates and nitric acid without glassware? he understands the oswald process yet he's waiting on mother nature to supply the nitrates in dung heaps. or perhaps on a volcanic eruption for sulfates to make sulfuric acid to make nitric acid.

weiming1998 - 20-1-2012 at 18:33

For the last time, I cannot buy glassware because the chemistry suppliers won't sell me any! Also, I cannot buy the nitrates because it seems to have been taken off the market in Western Australia! Not everyone lives in countries that have nitrates and glassware available OTC.

By the way, where do you get nitrites for curing meat? The galleria doesn't sell it. I might be able to acidify the nitrites into nitrous acid, which can be heated to make nitric acid!

[Edited on 21-1-2012 by weiming1998]

AirCowPeaCock - 20-1-2012 at 19:39

I highly doubt there isn't a nitrate source out there for you, and nitrate from fertilizer can be separated, I don't remember how though... And sulfuric acid can easily be made if you have sulfur and hydrogen peroxide, I've heard 3% can be boiled down to 20-30%, at that point the H2O2 breaks down faster than the water boils.. I promise, what your looking for is out there! And I'm sure there are places to buy glass ware, surplus stores, eBay, united nuclear, many many others--I'm at least 10 good sources for you are out there..

weiming1998 - 20-1-2012 at 20:04

The most annoying part is getting rid of the urea in fertilizer. If I could do that, I could potentially add CaCl to the fertilizer (Ca(NO3)2 is extremely soluble (300g/100ml when slightly heated), filter, then add Na2CO3 and I'll get pretty pure NaNO3 to boil down and make nitric acid with. But urea has about the same solubility curve as Ca(NO3)2, so can anyone help me on getting rid of urea?

Perhaps I could add K2CO3, then filter at room temp because KNO3 has a solubility of 36g/100ml at room temperature and urea has 100g/100ml solubility.Quite annoying job, and yields are going to be low, but it'll probably work. At least better than processing kilos of soil.

Also, would adding ethanol to the solution help KNO3 precipate? Because urea is not only very soluble in water, it is soluble in ethanol. But the results about potassium nitrate is conflicting. Wikipedia says it is slightly soluble, but other sites say it's insoluble and used to extract potassium nitrate to make gunpowder.

[Edited on 21-1-2012 by weiming1998]

weiming1998 - 20-1-2012 at 20:23

Quote: Originally posted by AirCowPeaCock  
I highly doubt there isn't a nitrate source out there for you, and nitrate from fertilizer can be separated, I don't remember how though... And sulfuric acid can easily be made if you have sulfur and hydrogen peroxide, I've heard 3% can be boiled down to 20-30%, at that point the H2O2 breaks down faster than the water boils.. I promise, what your looking for is out there! And I'm sure there are places to buy glass ware, surplus stores, eBay, united nuclear, many many others--I'm at least 10 good sources for you are out there..


Conc sulfuric acid I can make from SO2 generator, ozone generator and catalyst (FeSO4+MnSO4) Anyway, with making nitric+hydrochloric+most acids, I can substitute with Sodium bisulfate, which I have 3kgs of. The main trouble is a distillation stand. I have read somewhere on this forum that possession of ALL lab glassware is illegal in WA and the results is 5 years in jail, regardless if you're making meth or not.

entropy51 - 20-1-2012 at 20:38

Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  
I have read somewhere on this forum that possession of ALL lab glassware is illegal in WA and the results is 5 years in jail, regardless if you're making meth or not.
Dude, don't believe everything you read on the internet. I suspect that there are more sources out there than you have found, but I could easily be wrong.

But if this is true, you seriously need to consider another hobby. It's just not possible to pursue chemistry as a hobby without glassware and chemicals.

If you can't do chemistry, consider physics. I don't think that there are yet purchasing restrictions on batteries, wires, meters, resistors, integrated circuits and so on and on. Some of the moderators here have said that you should work with the things available to you, not things that you would like to have, but cannot obtain.

At his earliest opportunity Sir Ernest Rutherford got the hell out of New Zealand. I think you might want to consider the same course of action if Western Australia is as bad as people seem to think it is.

weiming1998 - 20-1-2012 at 21:31

I suck at physics though, can't understand it. I'm mainly good at chemistry and moderately good at maths. I've got some simple glassware. A borosilicate beaker, 2 smaller flat-bottomed flasks/beakers, and a broken test tube. They were from China, and my parents shipped them. I suspect the 5 years jail thing to be false because if they were illegal, why didn't the government confiscate them? But the chemical restriction is pretty bad, like the previous post I made about workers questioning people and not minding their own business. Also, my mum told one of her co-workers about me experimenting in a home lab, the person said to her I should stop ASAP because it's "too dangerous". My mum still supports me somewhat, but gets scared sometimes because she's scared of chemicals spontaneously exploding. Anyway, I don't want to change hobbies, because this is what I enjoy, and making me stop is like telling a gamer to stop playing games, ever.

Pulverulescent - 21-1-2012 at 05:30

Can you not just find someone into gardening to get KNO<sub>3</sub> off ebay for you?
I mean, the stuff is a popular fertiliser, after all . . .
From what you've said about W/A, the place sounds like some Oewellian dystopia!

P

malcolmf - 21-1-2012 at 05:50

I'm surprised at the lack of nitrates in the US.
Not exactly a fertilizer, more a trace element supplement, but soluble calcium salts sprayed over foliage and fruit prevents club root in brassicas, and bitter pit in apples, and in the UK the soluble salt you can buy OTC for this is 2Kg packs of Calcium nitrate. Dissolve, precipitate with a carbonate salt solution, and if you let it sit for a day or two the calcium carbonate will settle densely enough that you can carefully pour off the nitrate salt without having to filter. A sulfate should work too, but I suspect calcium sulfate might not settle out so well. Then evaporate your solution....

Surely you can get calcium nitrate from an agricultural supplier, garden center, or off ebay?

weiming1998 - 21-1-2012 at 06:47

Quote: Originally posted by malcolmf  
I'm surprised at the lack of nitrates in the US.
Not exactly a fertilizer, more a trace element supplement, but soluble calcium salts sprayed over foliage and fruit prevents club root in brassicas, and bitter pit in apples, and in the UK the soluble salt you can buy OTC for this is 2Kg packs of Calcium nitrate. Dissolve, precipitate with a carbonate salt solution, and if you let it sit for a day or two the calcium carbonate will settle densely enough that you can carefully pour off the nitrate salt without having to filter. A sulfate should work too, but I suspect calcium sulfate might not settle out so well. Then evaporate your solution....

Surely you can get calcium nitrate from an agricultural supplier, garden center, or off ebay?


I have looked in trace mineral supplements, and a lot of interesting things can be found (FeSO4, CuSO4, elemental S, K2SO4, etc) But nothing related to nitrate salts. Apart from nitrates, the only nitrogen fertilizer that I know of is urea, of which there was a great abundance, and are in 5kg bags) Also, chemicals were called by their archaic names and not their proper names (Sulfate of Potash for K2SO4, Slaked lime for Ca(OH)2, etc.) And, I suppose, it's time to persuade my parents, I guess, to buy things off Ebay. Is shipping expensive?

weiming1998 - 21-1-2012 at 07:03

Quote: Originally posted by Pulverulescent  
Can you not just find someone into gardening to get KNO<sub>3</sub> off ebay for you?
I mean, the stuff is a popular fertiliser, after all . . .
From what you've said about W/A, the place sounds like some Oewellian dystopia!

P


None of my friends from school is going to do that, since they have no idea what a nitrate salt is. It will be gibberish to them. My mum's co-workers can't help, since a good portion of them seems to be pretty chemophobic (the person that told my mum to stop me from experimenting was in fact a chemistry teacher before!) So only eBay orders from our family will do. Also, I have seen a lot of posts as well about the extreme strictness of chemical compounds in Australia. I can assure you that they are not false/exaggerated, it is true. Also, what I find weird is that you can buy KMnO4 OTC, but not KNO3! Anyone that has a bit of knowledge on chemistry can tell you which is the stronger oxidizer.

Also, not relevant to the topic, the science lessons I had at primary school was laughable in the least. In year 5, the teacher was concerned about "harmful compounds" in a NaHCO3+vinegar volcano! In the final year of primary school, the most dangerous "science experiments" we did was cutting sugar cubes with knives, then dissolving them in water. Seriously? Also, science class was skipped as much as possible, which I really hated, for things like P.E, which I really hated as well. Of the few classes I did at school, the subject was so easy I can learn nothing from it and everything I talked about in the class was over everyone, even the teacher's heads!

Anyway, sorry for ranting. I just feel strongly about this and consider it chemophobia.

neptunium - 21-1-2012 at 07:18

Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  
The most annoying part is getting rid of the urea in fertilizer. so can anyone help me on getting rid of urea?

Perhaps I could add K2CO3, then filter at room temp because KNO3 has a solubility of 36g/100ml at room temperature and urea has 100g/100ml solubility.Quite annoying job, and yields are going to be low, but it'll probably work. At least better than processing kilos of soil.

Also, would adding ethanol to the solution help KNO3 precipate?
[Edited on 21-1-2012 by weiming1998]


did you try with acetone ? urea is unsoluble in acetone if im not mistaken sodium nitrate is..

entropy51 - 21-1-2012 at 10:48

Quote: Originally posted by malcolmf  
I'm surprised at the lack of nitrates in the US.
There is no lack of nitrates in the United States. They are everywhere. One just has to know where to look and what to look for.

Pulverulescent - 21-1-2012 at 11:22

Quote:
I suck at physics though, can't understand it.

Even Stephen Hawking has difficulty there!
And this is completely off-topic, but when I was a kid and found out that the hydrogen bomb came about by research in physics I was devastated(?)!
Up till then I had thought that everthing that could go BANG! depended on good old chemistry!
I never quite got over that disappointment, but I do find some solace in the fact that nuclear explosions produce no gasses whatever! :)

P

neptunium - 21-1-2012 at 11:50

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Quote: Originally posted by malcolmf  
I'm surprised at the lack of nitrates in the US.
There is no lack of nitrates in the United States. They are everywhere. One just has to know where to look and what to look for.


i for one like to know where! stump remover is no longer KNO3 (at least at home depot) cold packs contain urea and NH4Cl, fertillizers are double salt with a lotta junk in them...sorry but the only reliable source of quality nitrate for me is ebay.
i hate to pay the shipping but i never go wrong ,and as long as i order small quantity for anaylisis i hope NOT to land on the no fly list!!!
not a dreamland for home chemist i tell ya.

entropy51 - 21-1-2012 at 12:14

Quote: Originally posted by neptunium  
i for one like to know where! stump remover is no longer KNO3 (at least at home depot) cold packs contain urea and NH4Cl, fertillizers are double salt with a lotta junk in them...sorry but the only reliable source of quality nitrate for me is ebay.
i hate to pay the shipping but i never go wrong ,and as long as i order small quantity for anaylisis i hope NOT to land on the no fly list!!!
not a dreamland for home chemist i tell ya.
Apparently you don't read my posts. Green Light Sump Remover is still very good KNO3. I just bought 3 pounds of it.

Spectracide was still KNO3 last time I saw it, but I rarely see it. Bonide has always been sodium metabisulfite, but that is useful too.

CVS pharmacy has tons of cold packs that are good quality NH4NO3. I recently bought several, just before I found the KNO3. When I find something good I stock up just in case it might not be there next time.

I have never found pure nitrate fertilizer here, but I live in a major metropolitan area and I would expect to find those in farming communities. Other members have recently reported buying large amounts of nitrates at farm stores.

Home Depot has never had much of a chemical selection in this area. The smaller hardware stores have a better offering. You can't expect to find everything on your shopping list in the first store you visit.

neptunium - 21-1-2012 at 12:54

i did read your post ! the CVS arround the corner here only has the blue brand ..
i am not saying its impossible , just that i am tired of constantly looking arround for what i need. if i come accross something good i get it but i am not driving accross the county to find it.

also , i am by racial and sorta kinda look arabic...not always the best idea for me to spend too long in the pool chemicals section reading composition.

Neil - 21-1-2012 at 14:28

most chains have an online msds database. Study in there then go shopping. If the store chain does not have a data base get the name of the chemical supplier that they get their pool chems from and check to see if THEY have a online data base.

weiming1998 - 21-1-2012 at 15:12

Spectricide? Bonide? They don't even sell stump removers here. Also, I have looked around for cold packs, they are very difficult to find and should I find one, it's always urea.
There's nothing even close to MSDS for Bunnings (a big hardware store in Western Australia), in fact, I went on their website, and I can't even find any chemicals listed! A search for "sulfur" had no results, even though I bought some sulfur there. Are they deliberately trying to prevent "meth cooks" from directly surfing the store by internet?

Also, if anyone knew where to buy nitrites, making it to nitrate would be pretty easy, depends if you want nitric acid or just salts for pyrotechnics.

Neil - 21-1-2012 at 15:16

Some stores here are the same. The suppliers for bunnings often do have msds sheets online.

weiming1998 - 21-1-2012 at 16:01

But I do not know the suppliers of Bunnings, nor is it listed on the website, nor do I feel it is appropriate to ask the store, and they will not tell me anyway. The only solution for me is to ask the store for "high nitrogen fertilizers" and hope that they don't lead me to urea.
Or ammonium sulfate.

entropy51 - 21-1-2012 at 16:09

Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  
Spectricide? Bonide? They don't even sell stump removers here. Also, I have looked around for cold packs, they are very difficult to find and should I find one, it's always urea.
If you can't get chemicals then chemistry is just not the hobby for you. There's no way around that reality. Get out of Australia at the first opportunity.

weiming1998 - 21-1-2012 at 16:48

Get out? How do I get out of Australia when I'm only 13? I might be able to go to a university in a different country, but for now, I will only be able to experiment with whatever chemical is here right now.

Anyway, I am trying the topsoil idea (dissolving topsoil in water, filter out precipate, add K2CO3/Na2CO3. I might make some nitrate with this method.

weiming1998 - 21-1-2012 at 17:29

I just tried using topsoil, it didn't work.
1-2 kgs of soil(sandy) was put in a giant bottle
.Water is poured in.
It is left to precipate, then filtered. The filtered liquid looks brownish
.Na2CO3 is added to the liquid.
There's no precipate though. and addition of sodium bisulfate proves that Na2CO3 has not reacted with the filtered off liquid. the liquid turned a darker brown, almost red, though.
Maybe my garden's just too sandy? Or this requires tons of soil?

Bot0nist - 21-1-2012 at 18:05

5 gal bucket worth works fine. Remember potassium carbonate is used for metathesis to aid in separation of the nitrate salt later in the process by taking advantage of solubility differences in a water alcohol solution, IIRC.

weiming1998 - 21-1-2012 at 18:08

Ok, I guess more top soil then. And instead of sodium carbonate, this time I'm going to use potassium carbonate.

Bot0nist - 21-1-2012 at 18:14

Are you boiling the filtered solution down and adding alcohol (IPA, EtOH) This will precipitate many of the non target salts and leave most of the potassium nitrate in the solution. Evaporate, collect dirty crystals, weigh and recrystalize from dist water or a mixed solvent.

[Edited on 22-1-2012 by Bot0nist]

weiming1998 - 21-1-2012 at 19:03

Filtered solution with addition of K2CO3 or without?

entropy51 - 21-1-2012 at 19:52

Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  
Get out? How do I get out of Australia when I'm only 13? I might be able to go to a university in a different country, but for now, I will only be able to experiment with whatever chemical is here right now.

Anyway, I am trying the topsoil idea (dissolving topsoil in water, filter out precipate, add K2CO3/Na2CO3. I might make some nitrate with this method.
This idea is less likely to work than the neon sign transformer. Maybe you should get over your fixation on nitrates and work with whatever chemicals are available to you instead.

A number of people have said that HNO3 is sold by hydroponics suppliers. When I search in the au domain for "nitric" and "hydroponics" there are a lot of hits. Maybe you should try that.

[Edited on 22-1-2012 by entropy51]

weiming1998 - 21-1-2012 at 21:32

I Googled "hydroponic supplier in Perth. Surprisingly, one is just walking distance to my house! Also, I am not fixated, I just want to look around and see if I can get it, because it's pretty useful. And I will work with whatever chemical is available to me, because I have no other choice.

Thanks for helping!

Pulverulescent - 22-1-2012 at 01:00

Quote:
Get out? How do I get out of Australia when I'm only 13?

That young?
Why not just forget about the nitrates for now (I assume explosives synthesis is your ultimate goal), and get concentrating on checking out the (un)fair sex?
I'm told them W/A sheilas are pure dynamite!
At thirteen, I know could think of little else ─ girls, that is; dynamite though was a distant glint in the eye, too!
And I've posted this link because sure, aren't most of ye Irish anyway!

P

weiming1998 - 22-1-2012 at 04:41

Quote: Originally posted by Pulverulescent  
Quote:
Get out? How do I get out of Australia when I'm only 13?

That young?
Why not just forget about the nitrates for now (I assume explosives synthesis is your ultimate goal), and get concentrating on checking out the (un)fair sex?
I'm told them W/A sheilas are pure dynamite!
At thirteen, I know could think of little else ─ girls, that is; dynamite though was a distant glint in the eye, too!
And I've posted this link because sure, aren't most of ye Irish anyway!

P


Really, man? I wrote that I will never indulge in high explosives like nitroglycerin or dynamite, which is just nitroglycerin with a plasticizer. I wrote what I ultimately need the nitric acid for (aqua regia gold plating) and I wrote I'm not using it for pyrotechnics. Also, finding girls is too hard, so I'll stay with chemistry for a while. And if I want to really concentrate on dating, I'll have to ditch chemistry, reading, fishing, chess, and all the hobbies that I have and watch romance movies instead. Not a good way to spend my leisure time.

I don't get the link you've posted. Who's Dylan Moran?

[Edited on 22-1-2012 by weiming1998]

cyanureeves - 22-1-2012 at 06:36

i should have looked at your age when i sent you that ghetto synthesis video. be careful because i can assure you that everybody who's made nitric has smelled it and if you can smell it,it can get you.by the time you come up with something even close to a nitrate, you will have gone through very lengthy processes and will have inhaled all sorts of fumes.you have been given lots of info in this post alone, if girls are hard to get now it will be harder if you're wheezing and eating ibuproden at your junior senior dance.gold chloride is way too acidic to plate with and the guy on youtube shown making it for plating stops short of showing exactly how he does it. i'm surprised you havent distilled gun powder with battery acid. have a long life kid and go to church today.

[Edited on 22-1-2012 by cyanureeves]

[Edited on 22-1-2012 by cyanureeves]

weiming1998 - 22-1-2012 at 07:54

If I cannot get nitrate fertilizers, then where the hell am I going to get gunpowder?
And yes, I have smelled various gases, some poisonous, like chlorine, sulfur dioxide (not that bad but makes your nose feel like I have snorted up sulfuric acid) and hydrogen sulfide (in small amounts, still stinks nonetheless). The nitrate is not the thing that makes the smell, but the nitrogen dioxide liberated when you try to heat nitric acid. I know that nitrogen dioxide is poisonous, so when I try to distil nitric acid, it will be in a closed container. I will not try to dissolve copper in nitric acid inside also. At least nitrogen dioxide is easier to see than chlorine, which is a very light colour in air, or hydrogen sulfide, which is colourless. Auric chloride is not too acidic. I can make a soln of it, connect a carbon rod to the anode and one to the cathode, electrolyze, then take out the one with gold plated on top and place a different carbon rod on the anode this time. Now there is two gold plated carbon rods, which works for most applications. A copper cathode and anode will suffice as well.

Anyway, I generally don't worry about girls right now, as there is so much to do and study, rather than to waste life away by looking at dates. I don't go to church because I'm not religious and does not believe in a god.

neptunium - 22-1-2012 at 13:54

Quote: Originally posted by Pulverulescent  
Quote:
Get out? How do I get out of Australia when I'm only 13?

That young?
Why not just forget about the nitrates for now (I assume explosives synthesis is your ultimate goal), and get concentrating on checking out the (un)fair sex?
I'm told them W/A sheilas are pure dynamite!
At thirteen, I know could think of little else ─ girls, that is; dynamite though was a distant glint in the eye, too!
And I've posted this link because sure, aren't most of ye Irish anyway!

P


come on now ! i wish i had internet when i first got into chemistry and science..
now you have a young man interested in science (rare occurence) and you basically tell him to go watch TV and chase girls...
not cool bro

entropy51 - 22-1-2012 at 16:41

Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  
. I wrote what I ultimately need the nitric acid for (aqua regia gold plating) and I wrote I'm not using it for pyrotechnics. Also, finding girls is too hard, so I'll stay with chemistry for a while. And if I want to really concentrate on dating, I'll have to ditch chemistry, reading, fishing, chess, and all the hobbies that I have and watch romance movies instead. Not a good way to spend my leisure time.
For some reason, I suspect that a 13 year old's interest in nitrates is not related to plating.

If you think getting nitrates is complex, just wait until you try to figure out the opposite gender.

I guess I'm not a good example but at 13 I had a lot more interest in chemistry than either pyro or girls. Come to think of it, at 61 that's still true.

weiming1998 - 22-1-2012 at 16:49

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  
. I wrote what I ultimately need the nitric acid for (aqua regia gold plating) and I wrote I'm not using it for pyrotechnics. Also, finding girls is too hard, so I'll stay with chemistry for a while. And if I want to really concentrate on dating, I'll have to ditch chemistry, reading, fishing, chess, and all the hobbies that I have and watch romance movies instead. Not a good way to spend my leisure time.
For some reason, I suspect that a 13 year old's interest in nitrates is not related to plating.

If you think getting nitrates is complex, just wait until you try to figure out the opposite gender.

I guess I'm not a good example but at 13 I had a lot more interest in chemistry than either pyro or girls. Come to think of it, at 61 that's still true.


God, for the last time, I wrote that I'm not interested in explosives! Nor will my parents allow me to make explosives! Also, getting nitrates is not complex, but getting nitrates with virtually no starting material is. Sure, there is a lot of 13 year olds that either just want to blow stuff up, or not interested in chemistry at all, but I'm not one of them.

weiming1998 - 22-1-2012 at 16:51

I regret writing that I'm 13 in that post.

entropy51 - 22-1-2012 at 16:53

Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  
I regret writing that I'm 13 in that post.
As if we couldn't have guessed.

weiming1998 - 22-1-2012 at 17:13

Now, can everyone just stop discriminating and treat me normally instead of like a know-nothing k3wl?

Bot0nist - 22-1-2012 at 17:24

Do you have any interest in small amounts of chlorate. If you have some bleach around you can synth a bit. A good oxidizer.

weiming1998 - 22-1-2012 at 17:31

In a previous thread, I already have a very good method of synthesis of potassium chlorate, a few tens of grams for the occasional pyrotechnic fest. So I don't need potassium nitrate as oxidizer. And thank you for not going crazy about my age, I appreciate it.

[Edited on 23-1-2012 by weiming1998]

entropy51 - 22-1-2012 at 19:04

Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  
Now, can everyone just stop discriminating and treat me normally instead of like a know-nothing k3wl?
People on this forum "normally" have the ingenuity to find the chemicals that they need. It ain't always easy. I'm sympathetic to your problems, but also a little concerned that you think you can't do chemistry without nitrating something.

I do fairly sophisticated chemistry, but it's not everyday that I need to nitrate something.

weiming1998 - 22-1-2012 at 19:55

If you people is concerned that I am trying to make a nitrate salt, then I won't make it and just preoccupy myself with something else instead. So you are saying I'm too lazy to find chemicals? I look everywhere for them. I even got stared at by a woman when I was looking for hydrogen peroxide in the hair section. But the problem is, chemicals simply aren't available to me as to some of you people, because of the regulations. I'll just use whatever's available at shops and whatever I can make.

entropy51 - 22-1-2012 at 21:30

Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  
If you people is concerned that I am trying to make a nitrate salt, then I won't make it and just preoccupy myself with something else instead. So you are saying I'm too lazy to find chemicals? I look everywhere for them. I even got stared at by a woman when I was looking for hydrogen peroxide in the hair section. But the problem is, chemicals simply aren't available to me as to some of you people, because of the regulations. I'll just use whatever's available at shops and whatever I can make.
That is what i've ben trying to tell you. Do chemistry with the materials that are available to you.

Be patiient. You will find chemicals more to your liking as tme passes.

weiming1998 - 22-1-2012 at 22:00

Yes, in the future I might be able to find new chemicals. But I'll not dwell on it right now.

Pulverulescent - 23-1-2012 at 02:27

Quote:
Now, can everyone just stop discriminating and treat me normally instead of like a know-nothing k3wl?

If you'd told us at the outset that you were 13 you'd have been given the 'kid gloves' treatment.
And that's not meant as sarcasm.
I sure wanted to blow shit up when I was your age!
When I'd hear the distant thump of blasting operations my heart would jump, and I often had the almost orgasmic pleasure of being onsite when gelignite was being used, sometimes in fairly large quantities, and was trusted enough to carry the boxes for the workers!
Sometimes I'd get the detonators, snuggled in their bed of cotton wool!
On one occasion, I pretended to trip, causing everyone to duck!
They couldn't seem to see the funny side!
Things were much more easy-going those days . . .
Of course, then, one could buy NaClO<sub>3</sub> in grocery shops!
Runaway paranoia is rampant now, but these are the times . . .

P

weiming1998 - 23-1-2012 at 02:54

Quote: Originally posted by Pulverulescent  
Quote:
Now, can everyone just stop discriminating and treat me normally instead of like a know-nothing k3wl?

If you'd told us at the outset that you were 13 you'd have been given the 'kid gloves' treatment.
And that's not meant as sarcasm.
I sure wanted to blow shit up when I was your age!
When I'd hear the distant thump of blasting operations my heart would jump, and I often had the almost orgasmic pleasure of being onsite when gelignite was being used, sometimes in fairly large quantities, and was trusted enough to carry the boxes for the workers!
Sometimes I'd get the detonators, snuggled in their bed of cotton wool!
On one occasion, I pretended to trip, causing everyone to duck!
They couldn't seem to see the funny side!
Things were much more easy-going those days . . .
Of course, then, one could buy NaClO<sub>3</sub> in grocery shops!
Runaway paranoia is rampant now, but these are the times . . .

P


I'm not really interested in explosive compounds right now. They are too dangerous and I am sensitive to loud noises, and 100 grams of something like acetone peroxide or dynamite makes a REALLY loud noise.

Also, what is a 'kid gloves" treatment?

neptunium - 23-1-2012 at 08:57

they just want to go easy on you ..

weiming1998 - 23-1-2012 at 15:27

How do they go easy on me?

Bot0nist - 23-1-2012 at 16:06

What they mean is basically take your age, inexperience, and possible immaturity into consideration before openly discussing dangerous things, or giving you to much shit. I'm sure your smart, so I'm not going to pretend you couldn't look up how to make TCAP if you wanted to make kewl explosions for your friends, so me helping or not helping you get nitrate salts wouldn't really affect your safety. I know it's frustrating when you can't get a reagent you need. Just do what chemistry you can wirh what you can get now, and learn as much as possible. There is so much to learn. So many beautiful and interesting reactions. One day you will be resourceful enough to either buy or synth anything you need from OTC stuff. Keep your head up, and try to get out of the hell hole when your older.

weiming1998 - 23-1-2012 at 18:37

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
What they mean is basically take your age, inexperience, and possible immaturity into consideration before openly discussing dangerous things, or giving you to much shit. I'm sure your smart, so I'm not going to pretend you couldn't look up how to make TCAP if you wanted to make kewl explosions for your friends, so me helping or not helping you get nitrate salts wouldn't really affect your safety. I know it's frustrating when you can't get a reagent you need. Just do what chemistry you can wirh what you can get now, and learn as much as possible. There is so much to learn. So many beautiful and interesting reactions. One day you will be resourceful enough to either buy or synth anything you need from OTC stuff. Keep your head up, and try to get out of the hell hole when your older.


Thanks, those people just won't believe me when I say that I am not going to make explosives. Have they encountered young people on this forum that wants to make bombs before?

Also, my peers aren't into the "kewl" stuff. They're too interested in sports and Xbox to even consider chemistry, much less looking at explosions.

[Edited on 24-1-2012 by weiming1998]

Bot0nist - 23-1-2012 at 18:44

Of course they have. many youngsters (and older folks) are into energetics. The younger ones seem to maim themselves more often though. Usually with peroxides, chlorates, or something as simple as explosive decompression using a 2liter and foil with a reactive drain unclogger.

Just be safe and do the book and paper work before getting to much bench time with dangerous compounds.

BTW, the soil method does have merit. I have used it to success my self. It takes patience, but you'll really appreciate the bit of recrystalized nitrate.

weiming1998 - 23-1-2012 at 19:05

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
Of course they have. many youngsters (and older folks) are into energetics. The younger ones seem to maim themselves more often though. Usually with peroxides, chlorates, or something as simple as explosive decompression using a 2liter and foil with a reactive drain unclogger.

Just be safe and do the book and paper work before getting to much bench time with dangerous compounds.

BTW, the soil method does have merit. I have used it to success my self. It takes patience, but you'll really appreciate the bit of recrystalized nitrate.


I'm not that into energetics though but those people think that if you are 13 and does home chemistry, your number 1 goal must be explosives. Stereotype anyone? That's like saying all home chemists make drugs. Also, I have done a lot of reading about chemistry, first in a school book, then on the internet. Also, I am still hesitant to mess with dangerous compounds (like generating cyanide salt, even though I have got all the ingredients necessary. )

By the way, I filled a bucket with soil, put water in it, filtered it (took about an hour) and then put it in the sun to dry (I have got 2 litres and my beaker is only 500mls, plus it would be a waste of gas to dry on the stove.) The liquid is a brownish-red colour, even when it is filtered.

Sedit - 23-1-2012 at 19:09

Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  

I am very short on professional glassware. I don't have anything to distil with (you know the glass tube?) And I can't buy any, chemistry supply stores won't sell to individuals.

Also, I don't have a neon sign transformer. I'll be looking for one, but don't have one right now.




I can assure you, and i'm not being an asshole here but the price you are looking to pay for KNO3 though the methods you are talking about will end up being WAYYYYY more then good glassware.

In other words... Go find it. I would be willing to bet every chemical I have that you can go find NH3NO3 or KNO3 at a dirt cheep price so in all honesty this thread is relatively asinine.

@Entropy....

Dude if you are looking for KNO3 or damn near anything of the sorts for that matter just hit me up, we are not that far apart and I have been a label reader since I was a VERY young child. KNO3 is only around 5$ a pound more then likely within 20 miles of where you live. I will show you if needed. I got hardware store chemistry down to a science :D

weiming1998 - 23-1-2012 at 19:24

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  

I am very short on professional glassware. I don't have anything to distil with (you know the glass tube?) And I can't buy any, chemistry supply stores won't sell to individuals.

Also, I don't have a neon sign transformer. I'll be looking for one, but don't have one right now.




I can assure you, and i'm not being an asshole here but the price you are looking to pay for KNO3 though the methods you are talking about will end up being WAYYYYY more then good glassware.

In other words... Go find it. I would be willing to bet every chemical I have that you can go find NH3NO3 or KNO3 at a dirt cheep price so in all honesty this thread is relatively asinine.

@Entropy....

Dude if you are looking for KNO3 or damn near anything of the sorts for that matter just hit me up, we are not that far apart and I have been a label reader since I was a VERY young child. KNO3 is only around 5$ a pound more then likely within 20 miles of where you live. I will show you if needed. I got hardware store chemistry down to a science :D


I'll wait a few months and maybe my mum will import some glassware from China (not to sound spoiled though.) She's setting up a business there. But my family is not that rich right now though. Or maybe I will find a chemical supplier that will sell to individuals. This thread's purpose is not only for me to try and find a convenient way to make nitrates, but finding interesting ways to make some (for academic purposes) also.

By the way, I have noticed an increasing trend in glyphosates in weed killers and benzalkonium chloride in toilet cleaners. Both of them seems to be replacing every ingredient in weed killers/toilet cleaners. Is it because they are safe/non toxic to the environment?

Sedit - 23-1-2012 at 19:28

Ok fine, but I can assure you that you are wasting your time for extremely impure nitrates... However I will look for a reference I have somewhere for you(assuming it wasn't on my computer that crashed),

The reference speaks of how to make Nitrates using Peat moss, a divided electrochemical cell and electricity. It oxidizing the ammonia and materials in the peat moss to generate HNO3 and subsequently Nitrates.

weiming1998 - 23-1-2012 at 19:52

Thanks!

Bot0nist - 23-1-2012 at 20:05

Sedit is right about the soil method. The yields and the purity make it nothing more than a "history lesson." I only pointed you down that path because I thought it would be impressive for you to get some functioning oxidizer from manureal soil. Filtration and recrystallization are some very important techniques in all facets of chemistry, and I thought it would be a good learning experience for you, because it was for me.

weiming1998 - 23-1-2012 at 20:52

Yes, I don't expect to generate much nitrates, but you are right, it would be a learning experience for me. By the way, when you are recrystallizing a solution, do you boil it down until precipates form, then turn off heat and wait, or evaporate most of the solution for crystals?

neptunium - 24-1-2012 at 15:01

you evaporate some of the water and let it cool , crystals from saturation should form , filter keep the solid and heat the liquid again untill a significant volume of water is gone, let it cool ...etc

weiming1998 - 24-1-2012 at 16:46

Ok, thanks for teaching me!