Sciencemadness Discussion Board

KNO3 Fertilizer

#maverick# - 8-5-2011 at 19:06

what brand of fertilizer do you guys use with a high KN03 content i cant seem to find any maybe im not searching enough

symboom - 8-5-2011 at 19:34

Quote: Originally posted by #maverick#  
what brand of fertilizer do you guys use with a high KN03 content i cant seem to find any maybe im not searching enough

what your thinking of is npk fertilizer nitrogen phosphorous and potassium
15-0-0 npk rating ive used what are you planing to use it for.

#maverick# - 8-5-2011 at 19:48

Well tbh. Some smoke bombs for paintball and also might use it make RFNA once my distillation set up comes in. Thanks for the quick answer

#maverick# - 8-5-2011 at 19:53

I only need about a half a pound or a pound. And I'm not gonna blow money on reagent grade for something where purity isn't really a factor

Justin - 8-5-2011 at 20:21

I've got some NaNO3 tech grade i'll let go of for cheap

Mumbles - 8-5-2011 at 21:24

I've always liked Champion or Haifa brand.

bbartlog - 9-5-2011 at 03:54

Quote:
15-0-0 npk rating ive used


The potassium in the KNO3 would imply that the third number should be non-zero. Sounds more like calcium nitrate? Anyway you can't go just by the NPK numbers (except in rare cases) as many other compositions, e.g. a bag of mixed urea and sand, could give you the 15-0-0 NPK number.

woelen - 9-5-2011 at 04:30

A good rating for KNO3 fertilizer would be something like 12-0-42 to 13-0-44. A fertilizer with such a rating almost 100% sure is based on KNO3. The latter is nearly pure KNO3. The former also is rather pure KNO3, but it contains some other stuff. I myself have used rating N-P-K +Mg = 12-0-42 +4. This is somehwere between 90% and 95% pure KNO3, with MgO and probably some filler material in order to keep the material in the form of prills. I used this to make nice pure KNO3 by dissolving this material in boiling water (appr. 150 grams of fertilizer for 100 ml of water) and then quickly filtering the hot solution through a coffee filter. The resulting liquid is pale yellow and (almost) clear. This liquid is allowed to cool down at room temperature and finally it is cooled down further to around 0 degrees. The result is a lot of big crystals:



From 400 grams of fertilizer I could obtain almost 300 grams of pure KNO3 crystals. I also had a clear solution left, which probably contained a few tens of grams of dissolved KNO3, but I did not bother isolating that as well. I diluted that and used it as plant food in our garden.

cyanureeves - 9-5-2011 at 04:50

Hi-Yield stump remover has potassium nitrate. unless it must be fertilizer.

#maverick# - 9-5-2011 at 05:10

No it dnt have to be fertilizer. As long it's KNO3. I bought stump-out and quickly realized it isn't KNO3

cyanureeves - 9-5-2011 at 11:26

woelen how long do you leave your solution at zero temp? Hi-Yield has mostly KNO3 but does have impurities now.

#maverick# - 9-5-2011 at 12:16

i found a fertilizer that is 29-0-3 i didnt buy because i am assuming since it has such a low K number most of the nitrogen is from other sources am i right

woelen - 9-5-2011 at 12:22

@cyanureeves: I left my solution at low temperature overnight. But most of the crystals already had appeared after one day of standing at room temperature.

@maverick: Fertilizer with 29-0-3 most likely hardly contains any KNO3. I can imagine that this is mostly NH4NO3 with a little KNO3 as well. Over here we have fertilizer which is 27-0-0 and this is NH4NO3 with some dolomite mixed in. Read on more carefully on the label of the fertilizer. It certainly will tell in which form the nitrogen is present. If it indeed is mostly NH4NO3, then you can use that for making KNO3 as well, by mixing it with K2CO3 and boiling off the formed NH3.

#maverick# - 9-5-2011 at 12:24

ahh, yea i cant find one fertilizer that even has that close to a rating ill try some gardening centers tomorrow

#maverick# - 9-5-2011 at 12:25

o btw woelen i just wanted to let you know that your website is blocked at my school cuz apparently the dumb filter thinks it has articles on how to make bombs, gave me and my chem buddies a nice chuckle

#maverick# - 9-5-2011 at 12:42

looked online on the websites of hardware stores around me the highest i could find is 24-0-12 are there any specific brands you guys purchase

woelen - 10-5-2011 at 00:44

Asking for brands is not very useful, unless people from the same country as yours provide you with an answer. I do not even know the names of brands of fertilizer, I just look at the bag and see what N-P-K rating it has and read any further descriptions. I have the impression that where I buy fertilizer, that brands change every year. At least the bags look different each year.

--------------------------------------------

If my website is blocked at your school, just tell the responsible persons about that and have them look at the website personally. Then they can see that the site has nothing at all to do with bombing and that its main goal is to raise interest in science in general and chemistry in particular. Probably a chemistry teacher in the school can do better judging than some software-filter, which only scans on some words and thinks it is about bombing when it contains words like 'chlorate', 'nitrate', 'perchlorate'.

[Edited on 10-5-11 by woelen]

#maverick# - 10-5-2011 at 04:37

Yes u are right woelen brands do probably change. I will go to more stores and if I can't find I'll just buy from Justin.

smuv - 10-5-2011 at 04:54

If you are after NaNO3, I have seen that at the hardware store as nitrate of soda; it was sold in 4 pound bags made by bonide.

http://www.mastergardening.com/too-2023.html (pic)

Also, for stump remover: Grants, Spectricide and green light are the ones that contain KNO3. You probably bought bonide brand (which is sodium metabisulfite).

All this is for the US, but something tells me you are american

#maverick# - 10-5-2011 at 08:15

^ your assumption is right and yes i did buy the bonide brand and metbisulfate can be useful too

#maverick# - 11-5-2011 at 18:44

Bought some stump remover that clearly says contains kno3. So to extract I heat water and dissolve the kno3. And the let stand till room temp. Filter any impurities then cool to 0C to crystallize the kno3 right

mr.crow - 11-5-2011 at 20:02

Love KNO3 crystals! So nice and easy to make

Yeah just dissolve it all in boiling water, hot filter, let cool, then put in the freezer for a while. Make sure they didn't put any plant poison in it

#maverick# - 11-5-2011 at 20:40

for sure and yea kno3 crystals look amazing

cyanureeves - 13-5-2011 at 16:39

i just made potassium and sodium nitrate crystals. both formed crystals the same day upon cooling however the sodium nitrate i made with sodium bicarbonate and ammonium nitrate did not salt out as much as the Hi-Yield stump remover and both were about the same in weight. i put both remaining solutions in the freezer and got a little more precipitate but still not as much as i expected from the sodium nitrate, as i remembered the weight when i first made it. i heated this remaining sodium nitrate solution to almost total evaporation, when it cooled down no salt appeared but as soon as i swirled it around, it all turned to a solid.i know this white solid has alot of sodium nitrate but how would i go about making crystals?i'm not even gonna bother with the potassium nitrate solution since i got most of the nitrate back in needle crystals. gorgeous crystals! these are keepers.

mr.crow - 13-5-2011 at 17:18

If you look at the solubility cure you will get most of the KNO3 with one crystallization. For NaNO3 you need to boil it down several times to get several batches. If the surface starts to get scummy its gone too far. Just add boiling water again and do it over.

Steve_hi - 21-9-2011 at 05:07

i bought some 27-0-0 a 20kg bag for 20$ I mixed 1kg with 500ml of water I filtered it off and put 200ml in the freezer and the rest on the stove top to boil it down what is the correct procedure to seperate the ammoniun nitrate from this mixture to give the best yield and the least amount of time doing it? I also got from the same agri supply store a 1 litre bottle of 29% H2O2 food grade for 10$ does this seem like a reasonable price. and they have sodium hypochlorite 10.8% 5 gallons for 14$

hissingnoise - 21-9-2011 at 07:19

$10 per Lt. for H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> seems high!
The rest is reasonable . . .
AN is 33-0-0 and KNO<sub>3</sub> is 13-0-44.
But what is 27-0-0, Steve?

Steve_hi - 21-9-2011 at 07:35

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
$10 per Lt. for H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> seems high!
The rest is reasonable . . .
AN is 33-0-0 and KNO<sub>3</sub> is 13-0-44.
But what is 27-0-0, Steve?

AN 34-0-0 can no longer be had in canada 27-0-0 is calcium amonnia nitrate I mixed 1kg with 500ml of tap water bouled and hot filtered it after i cooled it in a water bath and stired almost instanly white crystals started forming my yield was about 500gm so its roughly 50% now I'm going to buy some K, KLC 0-0-60 is 21$ for 20kg but I can also get KNO3 for 53$ for 20kg but I am not sure how much KNO3 I would actually get might be cheaper to take the KLC has to be recrystalized anyways.

Steve_hi - 27-9-2011 at 05:20

Yesterday I processed another 5kg of NH4NO3 fertilizer.
After filtering it I am letting most of it evaporate to dryness in a pan, but a good portion of it I put into the freezer and harvested the crystals until no more crystals would form. I then filtered the remaining liquid and put it into the freezer no more crystals formed but the liquid which is clear like water doesn't freeze is this because it is ammonia? or something else.
I would also like to know if the crystals from the freezer are more pure than what would be drying in a pan and if so would you think these would be equivalent to lab grade or reagent grade. Is there a mechanisim for determing the purity of this product?

Bot0nist - 27-9-2011 at 05:32

Recrystallization should yield a purer product than full evaporation as the more soluble impurities should remain in solution. Can you get a melting point on your KNO<sub>3</sub> to confirm purity?

grndpndr - 27-9-2011 at 07:27

Unliken Hissingnoise I either live in the sticks or prices are outrageous here,one reason -another.All the prices Steve qouted seemed very fair.
Recall, Im some 3-4 Hr roundtrip to any sizable community.We recently had an organic food store open 25miles away.The cost for 1L of 35% food grade H2O2 is $25 w/ tax.Purchase online and it doubles w/shipping and $25 hazmat.
Calcium hypochlorite
47% is approx $5 + lb -$30 5lbs.27-0-0 CAN is simply unavailable to the nonfarmer.It seems shameful with the problems aquiring NH4HO3 to metasthetise it to KNO3.Id quess the CAN is simply adulterated w/limestone?Quite pure HNO3 is still available here from the lb to #50 fert sacks 13.5-0-42 Haifa is good,Champion
and I believe Yara Krystal K is a good product.I would only buy greenhouse grade or a soluble irrigation grade.KNO3,Calcinit whatever.I believe thats the problem quicksilver is having with the clay-mica-glue is his Calcinit which he calls CAN perhaps hes referring to another product but insist NO,but there are several grades of calcinit.My GG yara calcinit is an absolutely clear solution but thus far a real B+tch to metasthetise to recoverable AN.Perhaps a roundabout route and metasthetise to all Ca(NO3)2 then to AN?
Steve when you put the CAN in solution does some solid material settle? If so I would guess it to be dolomite/limestone
easy to be rid of and harvest the quite pure AN crystals via recrystalization.Some folks here in the US resort to the cold packs which contain AN of questionable quality, a few oz for Approx$ 1.50 US! thats how paranoid our homeland security has become.off topic but try to get a simple Drivers License in the states that follow fed quidelines for citizenship!Near Impossible.My 56yr old original BC issued by a Navy Hospital w.state seal
wasnt enough proof of US birth as it didnt state paternity!?When did it become feds buisiness who your parents are/were?
Also demanded were 2 letters with physical address and name on them.Unfortunately we have no home mail delivery and thus no adresses in the smaller communitys.Way off topic but it took several days and phone calls to state capital( 2returns to DL station and I was one of approx 60-70% to make multiple trips) t to straighten matters out otherwise my other choice was to attempt to get a copy ofa 56yr old BC from the east coast @ my expense.30yr resident of this state.Big Brother @ his best.Excuse rant HS-Steve.

Long time Hissingnoise, your well?
As mentioned above a much purer product is available through recrystalization than evaporation .

[Edited on 27-9-2011 by grndpndr]

[Edited on 27-9-2011 by grndpndr]

Steve_hi - 27-9-2011 at 18:24

I did have a heavy residue that settled to the bottom Ive been told that it is calcium carbonate it was easy to just decant the mixture and then filterit. There was also a scum that floated to the top which I just ladeled out with a soup ladel.

[img]C:\Users\Steve\Pictures\2011-09-22 an\1.jpg[/img]

[img]C:\Users\Steve\Pictures\2011-09-22 an\2.jpg[/img]

[img]C:\Users\Steve\Pictures\2011-09-22 an\3.jpg[/img]


3.jpg - 41kB

[Edited on 28-9-2011 by Steve_hi]

1.jpg - 33kB2.jpg - 46kB

Luftwaffe - 27-9-2011 at 21:02

I recently was able to obtain 50kg of KNO3 fertilizer off craigslist and the bag states it to be 99% KNO3 and contains a bright white powder. I attempted to make R-Candy from it with no success as combustion of the fuel would cease almoust immediately. I remedied the problem by recrystallizing some of the fertilizer, the solution was quite brown after I saturated the solution near boiling. After letting the crystals precipitate out I filtered the crystals and they were used for my r-candy with great success, a sustained burn.

My concern however is the formation of nitrosamines when recrystallizing, I always seem to be light headed after purifying it which I generally attribute the symptoms to paranoia as I am aware of the compounds carcinogenicy and it is produced in low pH solutions containing amines. I tested the pH of the solution which was around 6 according to my test strip and I cant smell any signs of ammonia or any fumes coming from the solution for that matter, just the smell of my heating hotplate(stale smelling). Are the contaminants in your run of the mill relatively pure KNO3 fertilizer capable of making nitrosamines while doing a recrystallization? This greatly concerns me.

Steve_hi - 28-9-2011 at 01:07

Why dont you do this outside or under a fume hood or at the very least under the range hood of your stove to minimize inhailing any vapours or dust

Luftwaffe - 28-9-2011 at 02:26

I did the experiment in the garage with the door open, but yes I should be conducting experiments outside but my question still stands, can nitrosamines be produced under these conditions I previously stated? I am aware that nitrates are not capable of reacting with amines to produce nitrosamines but perhaps the nitrates could be reduced by biological contaminants like what occurs in your mouth/stomach into nitrites which would produce such a product?

I know these conditions seem absurd but I am just stating a scenario. I know this seems pretty extreme but I'm sure this topic would also concern others of which have used nitrate fertilizers without hoods in there garage to make simple pyrotechnics for fun. In my mind and through my reasoning I deem it very unlikely that I have created the conditions neccessary to produce nitrosamines and my symptoms are me just going crazy thinking about it! :D

Steve_hi - 28-9-2011 at 04:02

Quote "I am aware that nitrates are not capable of reacting with amines to produce nitrosamines but perhaps the nitrates could be reduced by biological contaminants like what occurs in your mouth/stomach into nitrites which would produce such a product?"

In foods, nitrosamines are produced from nitrites and secondary amines, which often occur in the form of proteins. Their formation can occur only under certain conditions, including strongly acidic conditions such as that of the human stomach. High temperatures, as in frying, can also enhance the formation of nitrosamines. The presence of nitrosamines may be identified by the Liebermann's reaction.[3] From wickipedia

Npk fertilizer boil

Kbonchev - 28-3-2014 at 10:54

Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves  
Hi-Yield stump remover has potassium nitrate. unless it must be fertilizer.

Npk fertilizer boil

Kbonchev - 28-3-2014 at 10:58

Hi guys I did boiled solution npk 8+8+8 fertilizer now what I've got?
Material looks fine crystals with creamy color!?!?
Thanks.

Texium - 28-3-2014 at 20:15

@Kbonchev: Depends on what compounds were used in the fertilizer to provide the nutrients. Does it say anywhere on the package?
It would probably be easier to use fertilizers that don't contain such a wide distribution of compounds. Much easier to separate that way, and to know what you're dealing with.

As a side note, I just did a recrystalization of Spectracide brand stump remover, and it crystalized beautifully, leaving only a tiny bit of brown particulate remaining undissolved, which was easy to filter out.

Also, this thread appears to discuss a very similar topic to this one.

Boiling fertilizer

Kbonchev - 29-3-2014 at 10:58

Hi, it is NPK fertilizer 8+8+8 N, p2o5, K2O I know I screwed this , I should use fertilizer with 0 P . How can I make now Krystal's .after boiling I've got creamy kristal powder an I'm not shure what is this I wait to dry so can make test burning with sugar. If you have another idea let me know. I'll let you know after my test what happen.:) if I still alive. :)

[Edited on 29-3-2014 by Kbonchev]

Boiling fertilizer

Kbonchev - 29-3-2014 at 11:00

Hi, it is NPK fertilizer 8%+8%+8%, N, p2o5, K2O, I know I screwed this , I should use fertilizer with 0 P . How can I make now Krystal's .after boiling I've got creamy kristal powder an I'm not shure what is this I wait to dry so can make test burning with sugar. If you have another idea let me know. I'll let you know after my test what happen.:) if I still alive. :)

[Edited on 29-3-2014 by Kbonchev]

Texium - 29-3-2014 at 11:12

Quote: Originally posted by Kbonchev  
Hi, it is NPK fertilizer 8+8+8 N, p2o5, K2O, I know I screwed this , I should use fertilizer with 0 P . How can I make now Krystal's .after boiling I've got creamy kristal powder an I'm not shure what is this I wait to dry so can make test burning with sugar. If you have another idea let me know. I'll let you know after my test what happen.:) if I still alive. :)


I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to accomplish here.
Which compound is it specifically that you were trying to isolate from the fertilizer, or are you doing something else entirely?

Kbonchev - 29-3-2014 at 11:16

I tried to isolate potassium nitrate. This is my first try. Maybe I should true out all this powder.!? The point is all we know what happen whit this mistake to the very end. That's is it.

[Edited on 29-3-2014 by Kbonchev]

Kbonchev - 30-3-2014 at 08:39

After the burning /it do not burn/ test I think all I've got is calcium . My first chemistry test fail. :mad:

[Edited on 30-3-2014 by Kbonchev]

[Edited on 30-3-2014 by Kbonchev]

Fantasma4500 - 30-3-2014 at 09:15

for those around europe, supposing the brand is not in the US aswell
Krista-K plus
pretty pure KNO3, although its not all of us that can get hold of big bags of pure fertilizer

also kbonchev
you should be capable of testing for calcium as in water soluble calcium by adding a solution of NaHCO3 (baking soda) to a solution of your fertilizer
if any precipitate forms you either have lead, calcium or barium nitrate in it, could be acetates aswell, although lead and barium would be ... not quite expected

copperastic - 30-3-2014 at 09:18

maverick you can buy stump remover which is pure potassium nitrate.

hyfalcon - 30-3-2014 at 09:51

You can also go to the local farm coop and ask for greenhouse grade potassium nitrate. It's completely water soluble and like 99.7% pure.

http://www.haifa-group.com/products/plant_nutrition/multi_k_...

[Edited on 30-3-2014 by hyfalcon]

Kbonchev - 31-3-2014 at 01:27

Now My first chemistry journey finish with my solution is gone one meter under the ground.
I'll let you know what's my next journey . Thanks all.

Kbonchev - 31-3-2014 at 06:08

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  
for those around europe, supposing the brand is not in the US aswell
Krista-K plus
pretty pure KNO3, although its not all of us that can get hold of big bags of pure fertilizer

also kbonchev
you should be capable of testing for calcium as in water soluble calcium by adding a solution of NaHCO3 (baking soda) to a solution of your fertilizer
if any precipitate forms you either have lead, calcium or barium nitrate in it, could be acetates aswell, although lead and barium would be ... not quite expected


I think I find good stuff for my potassium nitrat.
Should I start filtering and boiling it?
Thanks.

Krista-K™ Plus
Hochreiner, kristalliner, voll wasserlöslicher NK-Dünger 13 + 46 zur Bewässerungsdüngung und Blattapplikation, chloridarm

EG-DÜNGEMITTEL
EG-DÜNGEMITTEL

NK-Dünger 13 + 46

chloridarm

13,5 % N Gesamt-Stickstoff

13,5 % N Nitrat-Stickstoff

46 % K2O wasserlösliches Kaliumoxid

Eigenschaften:
Krista-K™ Plus ist ein voll wasserlöslicher Stickstoff- und Kaliumdünger. Das feinkristalline Produkt löst sich sehr schnell und ohne Rückstände in Wasser auf. Es ist geeignet für alle Bewässerungssysteme, wie Tropfschläuche, Kreisregner, Gießwagen und Pflanzenschutzspritzen und für alle Anwendungen im Gartenbau sowohl im Freiland wie im Gewächshaus. Krista-K™ Plus eignet sich sowohl zur Boden- wie Blattdüngung. Optimaler Partner zu YaraLiva™ Calcinit™.

Krista-K™ Plus kann mit allen wasserlöslichen Düngern gemischt werden. Es weist eine hohe Reinheit auf. Krista-K™ Plus ist chlorid- und natriumfrei.

TheAlchemistPirate - 31-3-2014 at 18:55

This is a lot of work for a chemical so easily obtained, If I were you I would just use spectracide stump remover.
If for some reason you need extremely pure HNO3(It doesn't seem like you do very pure-chemical reliant experiments) I would order from seattlepotterysupply.com. They don't guarantee lab grade purity but their products tend to be very pure
(potters don't appreciate their works being ruined by impure materials).

elementcollector1 - 31-3-2014 at 19:43

Spectracide stump remover is not always available. Besides, it's fun to outwit the DEA.

Texium - 2-4-2014 at 19:52

Additionally, if you do use the stump remover, make sure to purify it by recrystallization if you're using it for anything more technical that simple gunpowder or something like that. I did, and found that there was a decent amount of dirty brown crud that was easily removed after doing so.

Zyklon-A - 2-4-2014 at 20:59

Me too, but now I buy it on eBay: $8.00/three lbs. Purity was unknown but I recrystalized it, and no brown crud or anything else was in it, AFAIK.

Kbonchev - 3-4-2014 at 05:05

Here in Europa. Otter market Otter names .

[Edited on 3-4-2014 by Kbonchev]

Dr.Bob - 3-4-2014 at 06:43

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1  
Spectracide stump remover is not always available. Besides, it's fun to outwit the DEA.


I think the ATF is more likely to be concerned with that one, but neither are too worried about it. You can always buy gun powder at Walmart and extract the KNO3 from it...

But it is not too hard to find, compared to other chemicals.