Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Isolation of toluene or xylene from paint thinner

org.chem - 17-4-2011 at 14:07

Hi! First off I would like to compliment you on the forum you have. I've found lots of interesting reading material here and finally decided to register in need of some guidance. I tried ordering a small quantity of toluene, but apparently customs decided to destroy the package and I have yet to receive an explanation.

So I guess I am limited to OTC sources, specifically paint thinners. I have found two products that seem somewhat promising by looking at the MSD sheets, and they consist of:

1:
Toluene 70-80%
Acetone 15-20%
Isobutanol 7-10%

2:
Xylene 60-70%
Acetone 10-25%
Ethyl acetate 10-25%
Isobutanol 5-10%

I suppose the acetone can be removed by washing with water and ethyl acetate removed by fractional distilling (if it doesn't form an azeotrope with the aromatics).
The alcohol is what worries me as it probably forms azeotropes, in addition to having practically the same BP as toluene.

Any ideas here would be much appreciated.

Magpie - 17-4-2011 at 14:26

Do you live in the US? If so, it is freely available at hardware stores.

mr.crow - 17-4-2011 at 19:12

I prepared some toluene by washing "Lacquer Thinner" with water then drying and distilling it. It contains toluene, methanol and MEK.

The water wash didn't work as well as I hoped and I got a very large boiling point range, maybe 1/4 of the original volume came over at 110 degrees. Multiple smaller washes would be better.

Yeah the isobutanol looks like a pain to get rid of. Might not partition into water as well

org.chem - 18-4-2011 at 09:31

I live in Europe and acquiring reagents and solvents OTC is a problem here. I found another product that seems more promising, consisting of:

Xylene 50-100%
Ethylbenzene 10-25%
1-Methoxy-2-propyl acetate 2,5-10%

I'll remove the acetate by washing with water and keep the ethylbenzene as I don't see it causing any problems as a solvent.

theflickkk - 18-4-2011 at 19:17

Does anyone know of any other possible sources of toluene? Where I live, I've never seen a single product with toluene listed as a component. The only solvents available are denatured alcohol, isopropanol, paint thinner, kerosene, methylated spirit, chloroform, acetone, turpentine. I can't even find sulfuric acid, aqueous ammonia, dilute hcl or methanol...

Sedit - 18-4-2011 at 20:22

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
Do you live in the US? If so, it is freely available at hardware stores.


If your speaking of Toluene the I have to disagree, im from the states and Toluene is non existant. I ask if its behind the counter and I get a look as though im a bomb maker or something.

So for all those in the US that can get it with ease, count your blessings,,, it will not last. Everyone must stop assuming MeBn is everywhere with ease because its not. It would cost me around 100$ a liter if I where buy it over the counter, and thats after the hard work of purifying the shit that comes along with it.

Magpie - 18-4-2011 at 20:42

My quart can of toluene is fairly old now. It's Ace brand, but it doesn't show on their website inventory. Tomorrow I'll check the shelves.

I believe I've seen it in paint stores too. KleanStrip is apparently selling it somewhere in the US:

http://www.kleanstrip.com/



Arthur Dent - 19-4-2011 at 04:19

Is there a North-american OTC solvent or paint remover that contains xylene?

Robert

entropy51 - 19-4-2011 at 05:15

Quote: Originally posted by Arthur Dent  
Is there a North-american OTC solvent or paint remover that contains xylene?

Robert
The hardware stores here in the mid-Atlantic region sell Oops! tar remover, which is about 40% toluene. The balance is methanol and acetone. I'm sure those could be washed out with water, but I fractionally distill it to avoid adding water to the toluene.

I have to agree with Sedit (!) that I have not been able to find OTC toluene in the hardware or paint stores in the past 20 years or so. They usually have xylene and VMP Naphtha instead.

watson.fawkes - 19-4-2011 at 06:31

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
I believe I've seen it in paint stores too. KleanStrip is apparently selling it somewhere in the US:
As I recall, that's the brand I've seen at a local independent hardware store that has a particularly good selection of solvents.

The main reason that toluene has been going away is VOC (volatile organic content) restrictions that have caused the decline of oil-based paints, lacquers, and varnishes. In addition, not so long ago, a fair number of folks mixed their own, particularly varnishes. There a lot of such recipes from a couple of generations back, but they died off, just like the folks that mixed them. In other words, underlying primary demand at retail is way down.

A secondary reason is toluene intoxication. I was surprised, just now, to see toluene listed as an intoxicant in driving-while-impaired statutes (in RI and CA). Apparently it was a solvent in certain glues that were sniffed. I haven't heard about sniffing glue in a long time. Presumably there was a period of hysteria when these statutes got onto the books.

Specialty paint stores still stock toluene. Don't look to building paints though, but rather car paints, where such solvents are far more common. PPG is one such vendor that's widespread in the US.

mr.crow - 19-4-2011 at 06:56

Quote: Originally posted by Arthur Dent  
Is there a North-american OTC solvent or paint remover that contains xylene?

Robert


Goof Off used to contain xylenes (and maybe surfactants) but they appear to have changed the formula. Also comes in a tiny bottle

food - 19-4-2011 at 07:17

Quote: Originally posted by Arthur Dent  
Is there a North-american OTC solvent or paint remover that contains xylene?

Robert


Hi. Can't you just buy that off the shelf? I gathered from posts that you're in Canada. You mention 2dsurplus, which narrows it down a bit :). In western Canada xylene is available in the paint department. It's another Recochem product, and it's not a hard to find item at all. If I buy methanol, toluene, mek, xylene, naptha (as stove fuel) etc. It's all made by them. I hope that you can just go to a well stocked hardware, or paint supply store, it bugs me to hear about resources disappearing.

editing

this link would be a no-brainer to dig up, but what the hell
Recochem msds they ought to put me on their payroll the number of times that I've mentioned them recently

this link is a little more esoteric, and provides further and more specific info on some otc products. I'm providing a url for a search for coleman brand under one of the sub categories
Ignitable Liquids Database

I don't think that there is any session info attached to the search. If there is just dig out the bare bones url and copypasta

[Edited on 19-4-2011 by food]

quicksilver - 19-4-2011 at 07:52

N. America & Canada should really be no problem if you search. What you are looking for are either small "Mom & Pop" hardware or paint stores or independently owned "name" stores such as as Ace, True-Value, etc.
In Europe the best places are those that cater to wood working. In Germany, most places that sell wood working equipment and selections of exotic woods will have a higher quality of solvents. The common solvents from US hardware stores are very impure. Some, like acetone, having a percentage of petroleum distillates enough to make them a real problem.
However I agree, that fractional distillation is the best method as the purity should be appropriate for experimental use. In western Europe look to wood-working shops, marine (boating) shops & repair places. I have found enormous sources of chemicals by researching MSDS websites & cataloging them. In America there was a full ACE Hardware MSDS web site but it eventually became a "store-employee" only PW protected site due to a legal issue. But that does not mean that there aren't others. Check these:

http://www.msdssearch.com/manuflinksa.htm

http://www.msdssearch.com/

http://www.ilpi.com/msds/

http://www.imperialinc.com/msds.shtml

Arthur Dent - 19-4-2011 at 09:14

Yes I am from Montreal, there are many hardware stores where I can find Acetone, Methanol, Heptane, MEK, HCl, Paraffin oil and many other products. There's even an Ace Harware store three streets from my office where I found NaOH in 1 kg bottles. There's a "Mom and Pop" hardware store near where I live but they mostly have the red Sulphuric Acid drain cleaner and that's about it.

Yes there are some of these products that are Recochem brand, and the places I go like Home Depot and Reno Depot are the size of football fields so if they don't have it, no one does!!!

But my quest for Xylene and Toluene have been elusive. I can buy those from my lab supplier but i'd rather buy it off the shelf for MUCH less. I never think to go to art supply stores, perhaps I could find some interesting stuff there.

Robert

food - 19-4-2011 at 10:01

Quote: Originally posted by Arthur Dent  

places I go like Home Depot and Reno Depot are the size of football fields so if they don't have it, no one does!!!


the home depot near me, a full size one, doesn't carry concentrated H2SO4 drain cleaner. Another, 20 minutes away and the same size, does. I discovered this when I found a lone bottle on the shelf. An employee told me that it had bought at another location where it was stocked, but returned. So at least over here there is some variation among stock
Quote: Originally posted by Arthur Dent  

But my quest for Xylene and Toluene have been elusive.


go figure. I guess that I shouldn't be surprised, it's a large country

Cheers

if you haven't already, look at somewhere that has supplies for fibreglass or mold making/sculpting or plexiglass. Where I am all of the above businesses stock useful solvents

[Edited on 19-4-2011 by food]

Bot0nist - 19-4-2011 at 10:08

I must be lucky. I'm in the SE USA and I can get cans of 100%(supposedly) xylene and acetone, and rooto H2SO4 at walmart. The finishmasters up the road also has 5gal cans of MEK for $87 and 1 and 5 gallons cans of toluene.

food - 19-4-2011 at 10:20

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
I must be lucky. I'm in the SE USA and I can get cans of 100%(supposedly) xylene and acetone, and rooto H2SO4 at walmart. The finishmasters up the road also has 5gal cans of MEK for $87 and 1 and 5 gallons cans of toluene.


again I'm surprised; I'd thought that things were more restrictive in the States; I shouldn't be making all these assumptions so easily

like your sig by the way, I think that's a great perspective

I'm outa here

Magpie - 19-4-2011 at 10:26

As promised, I checked the shelves at my local Ace hardware. They not only had toluene and xylene in Ace brand cans but also had it in KleanStrip cans. $9/quart.

As someone else said, "it's a big country." I live in the NW.

Wizzard - 19-4-2011 at 11:30

I'm just south of Boston, and I can purchase both Tulol (toluene) and Xylene in large cans labeled as such readily, without a second glance in paint stores.

grndpndr - 19-4-2011 at 11:59

Relatively easy going around here yet.Did see a 1 gallon can toluene and the others are normally on the shelves in manageable amounts.

We do have the state mandated 1 box of cold tablets per day I think?Doesnt matter much as thiers enough ephedrine(according to 60min IIRC) being imported from Indian Pharmaceutical co.
In fact theres alot of colds in mexico past few yrs.Enough ephedrine has been imported(to mexico) to treat every cold in Mexico,Latin America,USA-Canada combined.Sickly folk those mexicans,to sick to get off thier ass and stop problem.There not alone however.

[Edited on 19-4-2011 by grndpndr]

Bot0nist - 19-4-2011 at 12:37

Quote: Originally posted by grndpndr  
Relatively easy going around here yet.Did see a 1 gallon can toluene and the others are normally on the shelves in manageable amounts.

We do have the state mandated 1 box of cold tablets per day I think?Doesnt matter much as thiers enough ephedrine(according to 60min IIRC) being imported from Indian Pharmaceutical co.
In fact theres alot of colds in mexico past few yrs.Enough ephedrine has been imported(to mexico) to treat every cold in Mexico,Latin America,USA-Canada combined.Sickly folk those mexicans,to sick to get off thier ass and stop problem.There not alone however.

[Edited on 19-4-2011 by grndpndr]


Yah, I also can only by one pack of cold medicine with an ID, yet I can get everything to make improvised NG and an initiator at my local wallyworld in one trip. No joke. (drain cleaner, cold-packs, glycerin, h2o2, acetone) Not that I would though. Just who are they trying to protect?

Magpie - 19-4-2011 at 13:15

Quote: Originally posted by grndpndr  
.Enough ephedrine has been imported(to mexico) to treat every cold in Mexico,Latin America,USA-Canada combined.


Yes, it seems that the meth afficionados' habits are being as well supplied as ever. But what's good about the restrictions on ephedrine sales is the drastic reduction in home meth labs. This has the beneficial effect of taking a lot of heat and bad publicity off the US home chemist, ie, us.

caliber - 23-4-2011 at 14:12

panel beaters/auto body mechanics use aromatics by the drumload. car paint wholesalers will sell you a 20L drum of toluene without lifting an eyebrow and if theyve been restricted to account customer bullshit they will still be able to sell you a drum of decent grade car paint thinners usually containing something like toluene/xylene/mek (40/40/10) its usually better than the hardware store shit and if your fussy wash the toluene with 50% H2SO4 at 0C and if it discolours repeat washes until theyre clear (bump the final one to ~90% if your anal) final rinse with NaOH soln and then distill discarding first and last 5-10% of the theoretical bp. should yield damn near close to lab grade toluene.

Steve_hi - 24-4-2011 at 15:53

Hi Arthur Dent I don't understand why you would have a problem locating toluene or xylene here in Canada I bought a gallon of each at a sico paint store from about 19$ to 24$. You have to go to an actual Sico store and not a store like Rona that has Sico products but an actual Sico Paint store. Thay also sell
Acetone for 19$ a gallon or 69$ for a 5 Gallon pail.

Arthur Dent - 25-4-2011 at 04:41

Thanks for the tip, i'll check these out. i pass by a paint store every day, but never stopped to see what goodies I could find there...

- Robert

TheWire - 27-4-2011 at 16:27

Quote: Originally posted by org.chem  
I live in Europe and acquiring reagents and solvents OTC is a problem here. I found another product that seems more promising, consisting of:

Xylene 50-100%
Ethylbenzene 10-25%
1-Methoxy-2-propyl acetate 2,5-10%

I'll remove the acetate by washing with water and keep the ethylbenzene as I don't see it causing any problems as a solvent.






you are joking? I am sure Toulene is on EBay, if not PM me and I'll help you out with some chem co's that will deal.