Sciencemadness Discussion Board - explosively pager

explosively pager

Laboratory of Liptakov - 17-9-2024 at 22:27

The Secret Service managed an incredible logistical operation. Inserting xy g PETN into thousands of pagers. A pager is a relatively small device, usually smaller than a cell phone. And as you know, there is very little room for any changes in any electronic device. I estimate that the HE took 90% of the battery compartment. An integral part of the charge is the detonator, the size I estimate on 10 x 4 mm. Without metal tube. The advantage of a modern Li-Po battery is that
that it is vacuum sealed. PETN inside is therefore difficult to detect as an odor trace. Furthermore, 95% of the battery's weight consists of copper and aluminum. Which makes it difficult to detect the different design by X-ray. So the battery is an ideal place to put the HE. But even so, at least 10% of the battery capacity had to be left for the pager. Even before publishing detailed information, I estimated the amount of HE used to be at least 15 grams.
Some reports state 3 grams of HE, other sources 20g of HE. According to estimates, the size of the pager is approximately 100 x 60 x 30 mm. Which is enough room for at least 10g of HE. Hole in metal table looks on at least 10g HE, measured by secondary hole in wooden table under. But rather 15 - 20g HE is more realistic.

[Edited on 18-9-2024 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

UndermineBriarEverglade - 18-9-2024 at 08:45

yes, very clever infiltration. Apparently there was a second round of explosions, this time walkie-talkies. I have seen some speculators saying the PETN was set off by thermal shock from battery overheating, and that some owners noticed their pagers get hot and discarded them. Seems unlikely to me compared to a cap. But impressive that no devices exploded prematurely if they were bought 5 months ago, especially if they did contain a blasting cap.

I hope I'm allowed to say this here. I think this was not a targeted military attack, but a terrorist attack on civilians. If you put explosives in a phone, you can get the guy on a phone call, confirming his identity via voice and holding the explosive to his head. But there's a picture of a phone store with lots of smoke, I think these pagers were sold on the market. If you put explosives in consumer devices (that may often be bought by Hezbollah) and explode them without regard for device position or user identity, you are going to get explosions killing civilian owners, shrapnel injuries in supermarkets, little girls killed bringing their father's pager to him, etc. Which is what has been reported. I think about Life After Detonation and then of these 2800 injuries...

Sir_Gawain - 18-9-2024 at 10:30

The fact that none of these devices were discovered, even by airport security, is extremely concerning.

clearly_not_atara - 18-9-2024 at 12:21

There were claims made on social media about how nobody uses pagers and therefore it was such a clever attack because only Hizbullah members would have a pager. I found this particularly unconvincing, because I had carried a pager for work at my last job -- it was the accepted alternative to installing some kind of spying software on my cell phone. Apparently this is also true at some hospitals in Lebanon, where, according to The Economist:

Quote:

Medics at the American University of Beirut’s hospital were told to throw away their own pagers.

Luckily, our pagers used non-rechargeable AA batteries, and I don't live anywhere near Lebanon.

fx-991ex - 18-9-2024 at 13:12

Am thinking exactly the same thing. If they really knew "terrorist" would get these device, why not keep them online to track them and listen what they say.

Quote: Originally posted by UndermineBriarEverglade

I hope I'm allowed to say this here. I think this was not a targeted military attack, but a terrorist attack on civilians. If you put explosives in a phone, you can get the guy on a phone call, confirming his identity via voice and holding the explosive to his head. But there's a picture of a phone store with lots of smoke, I think these pagers were sold on the market. If you put explosives in consumer devices (that may often be bought by Hezbollah) and explode them without regard for device position or user identity, you are going to get explosions killing civilian owners, shrapnel injuries in supermarkets, little girls killed bringing their father's pager to him, etc. Which is what has been reported. I think about Life After Detonation and then of these 2800 injuries...

Precipitates - 18-9-2024 at 19:16

Quote: Originally posted by UndermineBriarEverglade

Which is what has been reported. I think about Life After Detonation and then of these 2800 injuries...

It's a horrific and barbaric attack.

Quote:

US and Lebanese sources told the New York Times and Reuters that Israel had planted small amounts of explosives inside the pagers which blew up on Tuesday.
An ophthalmologist at one hospital in Beirut told the BBC that at least 60% of the people he had seen had lost at least one eye, with most also losing a hand.
“Probably this is the worst day of my life as a physician. I believe the number of casualties and the type of damage that has been done is humongous," Dr Elias Warrak said.
"Unfortunately, we were not able to save a lot of eyes, and unfortunately the damage is not limited to the eyes - some of them have damage in the brain in addition to any facial damage.”

BBC news

Whilst we try to avoid accidental injuries from such dangerous chemicals, groups are purposefully using them to inflict pain and suffering.

Hey Buddy - 18-9-2024 at 22:22

I have found PETN to be quite efficient in small masses. RDX appears to be even more efficient in micro application despite the common belief that PETN is lower critical diameter.

While I do l appreciate the novel use and micro application of explosives generally, In this instance the application is so indiscriminate it is degenerate and unprofessional in a military context. It is a group of people, on behalf of a nation state, detonating explosives in public areas in proximity to definite civilians, and the targets are only theoretically military targets, not positively identified military targets. It isn't possible to ascertain the location and identity of all the people in possession of so many devices at one time. Not to mention the greatly multiplied number of civilian injuries. So it is indiscriminate bombing and killing of non-uniformed combatants in a civil environment with no regard for civilians at best. Terrorism at worst.

Furthermore, I noticed (conspicuously) that the topic, it's technical explanation of "batteries", and the popularity of the topic were all produced and served to the public by a wide array of news media outlets and social media hubs simultaneously, in a manner that demonstrated an oddly intensive interest to the media, disproportionate to the event, on a topic that is frankly no more interesting or noteworthy than the explosions of plants in Russia taking place at the same time. One of which registered on the international richter scale.

I would assume from these observations, that the intensity of reporting on the topic is propaganda to make israel appear competent. The technical details are untrustworthy, because the true methods would be concealed. The explosive application isn't as incredible as the fact that so many people had devices within a supposed combatant network. If this is the case, then it's likely that next, all of hezbolla will start having their matching athletic sneakers detonate. If you can get that many devices into the hands of a network of non-uniformed combatants, then they aren't very intelligent, and have no security protocols for their incoming equipment and distribution.

In my opinion, it is more likely that hezbolla at it's funding source, is actually an israeli organization, and that is the reason that so many devices could be distributed. Regardless, it is a radical departure from traditional warfare and is certainly outside the bounds of what is considered ethical. I don't see any ethical difference between this sort of application and say, suicide bombing. Both are directed at political/military targets generally, both indiscriminately kill and injure non combatants. They are the same. They are both terrorism.

The difference is that one of the methods requires a large network and lots of funding, and nation state hosting, and the other only requires one or two people to accomplish independently. Suicide bombers can be radicalized individuals, independent from their respective states, for them to act doesnt hold their states culpable. This incident demonstrates that the israeli nation state itself is radicalized at the same level of terrorists but with access to NATO equipment and resources.

[Edited on 19-9-2024 by Hey Buddy]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 19-9-2024 at 00:29

The primary hole next to the mirror is cca 40 x 40 mm. And the secondary hole next to the hair brush is about 80x80mm in diameter. Of course, they were right under each other at the time of the explosion. The bottom plate, about 20 mm thick, was pulled out later for the photo. The top plate has a metal surface, I guess aluminum with a thickness of 1 mm. The edges at the top hole are not sharp, indicating a blast charge distance of approximately 5 - 10 mm. Which corresponds to the distance, i.e. the thickness of the plastic material of the pager. Given these clues, I estimate the weight of pressed PETN to be 7 - 10 grams. The stated 3g of PETN is too little for secondary punching of the second plate.... :cool:

Hey Buddy - 19-9-2024 at 09:17

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

The primary hole next to the mirror is cca 40 x 40 mm. And the secondary hole next to the hair brush is about 80x80mm in diameter. Of course, they were right under each other at the time of the explosion. The bottom plate, about 20 mm thick, was pulled out later for the photo. The top plate has a metal surface, I guess aluminum with a thickness of 1 mm. The edges at the top hole are not sharp, indicating a blast charge distance of approximately 5 - 10 mm. Which corresponds to the distance, i.e. the thickness of the plastic material of the pager. Given these clues, I estimate the weight of pressed PETN to be 7 - 10 grams. The stated 3g of PETN is too little for secondary punching of the second plate.... :cool:

Interesting observation. I saw some video of a pager detonation which appeared to only be a few gram payload, difficult to accurately measure, but it may be up to 10 g, but it seemed perhaps half of that to my eye. There were some other detonation videos I saw that were obviously in the 30+ g range.

dettoo456 - 24-9-2024 at 07:14

The frightening thing is though, that microdetonators nowadays exist to be small enough to even fit in wireless earbuds that are far more common in the west than pagers. And those detonators, containing maybe even a few 100 milligrams of EM, could be wirelessly initiated via RF or high frequency from something like a smartphone nearby. A blown eardrum would be the least of my worries then. And to think that these pagers were built by a country directly funded by US taxpayer dollars…

Don’t forget the USS Liberty

fx-991ex - 24-9-2024 at 08:02

Quote: Originally posted by dettoo456

The frightening thing is though, that microdetonators nowadays exist to be small enough to even fit in wireless earbuds that are far more common in the west than pagers. And those detonators, containing maybe even a few 100 milligrams of EM, could be wirelessly initiated via RF or high frequency from something like a smartphone nearby. A blown eardrum would be the least of my worries then. And to think that these pagers were built by a country directly funded by US taxpayer dollars…

Don’t forget the USS Liberty

The vestibular system is part of your ear, if you blow it up life will be fun without balance and the whole world including yourself spinning nonstop throwing you into the ground.

sarinox - 25-9-2024 at 03:18

Quote: Originally posted by fx-991ex

Am thinking exactly the same thing. If they really knew "terrorist" would get these device, why not keep them online to track them and listen what they say.

Probably secret services have listened to those devices for God knows how long!

And they might have already figured out the connections and where the HVTs (high value targets) are located! in the event of the clash; they just needed to cut off the communication lines and take their enemies by surprise!

[Edited on 25-9-2024 by sarinox]

Vomaturge - 25-9-2024 at 16:36

Highly efficient RGTICS.

sarinox - 26-9-2024 at 01:24

During my childhood, there were myths circulating, one of which suggested that modern technology allows for the concealment of explosives within a coin that could be remotely detonated. From a scientific perspective, can this claim be substantiated?

[Edited on 26-9-2024 by sarinox]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 26-9-2024 at 08:16

No need to prove scientifically. Young men in Beirut have pockets full of such coins...... :cool:

bnull - 26-9-2024 at 11:28

Quote: Originally posted by sarinox

During my childhood, there were myths circulating, one of which suggested that modern technology allows for the concealment of explosives within a coin that could be remotely detonated. From a scientific perspective, can this claim be substantiated?

The main problem I see is density. Metals used in currency are at least 1.4 times as dense as, say, HMX or TATB. It is hard to explain a half-dollar coin (11.34 g copper/copper-nickel alloy, density about 7.16 g/cm³) that weighs just 3.5 grams (2.7 grams TATB, density about 1.9 g/cm³; 0.8 grams for detonator and outer layer), for example.

I'm glad my ancestors went West rather than East.

sarinox - 26-9-2024 at 22:44

@bnull, So, the myth is busted?

bnull - 27-9-2024 at 09:45

If we're to have a coin that looks and weighs like a real coin so as to be deemed inoffensive, then the explosive part is busted.

The detonator, on the other hand, is quite reasonable. Easy-peasy back then and easier still these days. You can have a passive detonator (think RFID, like those shop tags, or the Soviet device called "The Thing") that fits inside a coin and leaves enough empty room. A detonator using a battery takes up too much space.

The hard part is finding an explosive as dense as nickel and copper (~9 g/cm³) or silver (~10 g/cm³) that is effective in such small quantities. The densest I remember are lead azide and mercury fulminate, both below 5 g/cm³.

If you disregard the weight difference and go for a 3.5 g half-dollar that blows up, it seems feasible.

sarinox - 27-9-2024 at 10:24

@bnull,

you talk about density of explosives (which is quite logical) but there remains a question: what if those who want to put explosives inside a coin ;use lead to make fake coin exterior? then what? would it be possible to make a fake detonable coins that feel (by weight) similar as ordinary coins?

bnull - 29-9-2024 at 06:01

Well, it seems I made a rather unwarranted assumption. I assumed that the explosion of the coin should be accompanied by some degree of damage or injury to something or someone close to it.

Quote:

modern technology allows for the concealment of explosives within a coin that could be remotely detonated.

There's nothing about damage in the quotation above, such as "tear up a hole on a wooden table". One could make a fake coin with enough explosive to make it fly like a rocket, or perhaps just jump a small height.

A copper-plated lead coin (with a primer and passive detonator inside) that feels and weighs like a real one: yes, perfectly feasible.

sarinox - 29-9-2024 at 11:34

Quote: Originally posted by bnull

A copper-plated lead coin (with a primer and passive detonator inside) that feels and weighs like a real one: yes, perfectly feasible.

Hi folks,

I just wonder is there any evidence that someone has tried to make this? or even made it?

@bnull, and lead casing will not make the detonable coins harmful? (just a question)

MineMan - 3-10-2024 at 18:24

Quote: Originally posted by sarinox

Quote: Originally posted by bnull

A copper-plated lead coin (with a primer and passive detonator inside) that feels and weighs like a real one: yes, perfectly feasible.

Hi folks,

I just wonder is there any evidence that someone has tried to make this? or even made it?

@bnull, and lead casing will not make the detonable coins harmful? (just a question)

Why? This just seems irresponsible

bnull - 3-10-2024 at 20:39

@sarinox: Fortunately, none so far.

@MineMan: It is irresponsible. An explosive coin manages to be even worse than the pagers. There's no guarantee that the intended target(s) would keep the coins instead of using them to buy stuff. I'm pretty sure it violates Geneva (the last one, I believe) or Hague and the Law of War, even if many seem to care so little about them these days.

sarinox - 3-10-2024 at 23:34

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan

Why? This just seems irresponsible

Greetings, MineMan. While it may indeed seem to be a myth, I wanted to explore whether there could be any underlying truth to it.

Interestingly, I encountered another claimback then, which suggested the existence of "explosive polymers" that could potentially be utilized in the production of fabrics or textiles! According to this myth, it would be possible to manufacture wearable products, such as t-shirts, suits, or even carpets, using polymers with explosive properties.

This myth about explosive polymers was actually linked to detonable coins. However, the objective was not to create explosive coins, but rather detonable buttons which could be integrated into a garment such as a shirt made of explosive polymers!

And tanx for the info @Bnull

-Sarinox

Precipitates - 4-10-2024 at 00:20

Many would say exploding pagers and radios already violates international law.

Of course these laws are always open to interpretation, especially by those possibly violating them and their allies.

Coins would be too indiscriminate, but clothing, especially garments worn by soldiers of an opposing army, perhaps doesn't seem so far fetched now.

bnull - 4-10-2024 at 07:22

A uniform that explodes. That seems even more feasible. Military uniforms have stud or shank buttons, which do not have issues with a standard weight since no one cares to weigh them. They're sewn to the fabric and, if all the buttons on an uniform have the same feel, undetectable.

sarinox - 4-10-2024 at 10:59

Quote: Originally posted by Precipitates

Coins would be too indiscriminate, but clothing, especially garments worn by soldiers of an opposing army, perhaps doesn't seem so far fetched now.

Is there any report of such clothing? or it is again a mere myth?

Is there even any polymeric high explosives that could be used in manufacturing clothing or even objects?

Such as below image (Notice it is just an imaginary polymer with similarities to Polystyrene, perhaps it could be called PolyNitrostyrene!)

sarinox - 4-10-2024 at 11:06

Quote: Originally posted by bnull

A uniform that explodes. That seems even more feasible. Military uniforms have stud or shank buttons, which do not have issues with a standard weight since no one cares to weigh them. They're sewn to the fabric and, if all the buttons on an uniform have the same feel, undetectable.

The problem of this myth "Detonable Uniforms" is that is there detonable fabrics?

Alkoholvergiftung - 4-10-2024 at 11:34

An Hardplastic explosvie like Nipolite you could make many things as an
explosive.
https://www.yumpu.com/de/document/read/2646660/nipolit-kampf...

[Edited on 4-10-2024 by Alkoholvergiftung]
https://www.yumpu.com/de/document/read/2648786/nipolit-kampf...
on the secound linke you see soles and raincoats out if this material.

[Edited on 4-10-2024 by Alkoholvergiftung]

bnull - 4-10-2024 at 14:36

Quote:

Is there any report of such clothing? or it is again a mere myth?

Again, none so far.

Quote:

Is there even any polymeric high explosives that could be used in manufacturing clothing or even objects?

Welcome to the amazing world of plastics! From billiard balls to motion picture films, from paints and lacquers to filtration membranes, and souvenirs, such as a small pocket knife with celluloid handle scales (I have one). Nitrocellulose and its mixtures, poly(4-nitrostyrene), nitrostarch, polyvinyl nitrate.

Attachment: The Nitration of Polystyrene.pdf (398kB)
This file has been downloaded 100 times

yobbo II - 7-10-2024 at 03:20

Back in the day the 'Black book(s)' give recipes for eXplosive cake etc using RDX.

sarinox - 7-10-2024 at 11:12

Quote: Originally posted by yobbo II

Back in the day the 'Black book(s)' give recipes for eXplosive cake etc using RDX.

Yes, as well as candles, etc! but haven't seen a detonable uniform yet!

Marcello0922 - 9-10-2024 at 14:50

It's good that you brought up this topic Laboratory of Liptakov

To the best of my knowledge, Detasheet PETN-based plastic explosives are not so easily detectable by X-ray gates. In addition, I once checked a self-made detasheet (PETN, plasticizer and nitrocellulose) - it detonated in a strip 0.5 mm thick and 15 mm wide. For such materials, it is not so much the critical diameter that is important, but the critical thickness layer (ratio of thickness to width).

Regarding the micro detonator, I would not be surprised how any of the electronic components (SMD type resistor or capacitor) was covered with the primary explosive. The question is which one, that it was also not detected. The mass of such an igniter need not exceed 0.1g if it is in contact with the PETN.

Regarding the mass - knowing the dimensions of the pager, you can determine its volume and on this basis calculate what mass of explosive could have been used. From the information I found and received, inside the electronics occupy 70-80% of the box. In addition, it is worth adding that the pagers were programmed in such a way that the explosion would occur (supposedly) after the 3rd signal. That a person would take it in his hand and bring it close to his face, in order to increase the impact of the shrapnel and the material itself.

What do you think about this?

Random - 9-10-2024 at 19:30

Quote: Originally posted by Marcello0922

It's good that you brought up this topic Laboratory of Liptakov

What a time to be alive.

Liptakov? Is that Ukraine or Russia? Or it just sounds like that?

...

This again reminded me how I had a digital copy of Terrorist Cookbook. Was it Cookbook or Handbook.

dsl

I just saw \\old jew

Laboratory of Liptakov - 10-10-2024 at 06:05

From the information gathered, it appears that a so-called thermal shock was used to initiate the PETN in the pagers. The heat from partially shorting the battery combined with the aluminum and copper in the battery design created the conditions for a full detonation..... :cool:

Etanol - 11-10-2024 at 09:43

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

From the information gathered, it appears that a so-called thermal shock was used to initiate the PETN in the pagers. The heat from partially shorting the battery combined with the aluminum and copper in the battery design created the conditions for a full detonation..... :cool:

I think this is false information.
Special services will not use the unreliable method when they have all materials for a reliable method. They will use a microdetonator containing 20-50mg of primary explosives.

[Edited on 11-10-2024 by Etanol]

Sir_Gawain - 13-10-2024 at 13:55

Before this gets taken down…
Here’s a video from Ordnance Labs demonstrating a recreation.