Sciencemadness Discussion Board

NPK from incinerated bones

Romix - 7-5-2024 at 14:11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAGBYEvsxEc
Found this in a list of videos that I have liked.
What do you guys think, will all the steps in the video would work in real life?
I'm going to burn small batch of bones with MAPP+, before I'll do a bigger batch, somewhere in a fields away from civilization, bones stink burning.

In a video they're using HCl, I will use HNO3 instead and use Potassium Carbonate instead of Na2CO3 to drop remaining Calcium in solution.

Rainwater - 7-5-2024 at 17:27

I didn't watch the video. I just read the transcript.
Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
What do you guys think, will all the steps in the video would work in real life?
Its on youtube so it has to be true. j/k
Quote:
In a video they're using HCl, I will use HNO3 instead and use Potassium Carbonate instead of Na2CO3 to drop remaining Calcium in solution.

The intermediate will be calcium nitrate and phosphoric acid. You can distille off any excess HNO3.
Then potassium nitrate, calcium carbonate percipitate, and phosphoric acid.

There may be a good reason to use HCl and not nitric, but google isnt finding much.
I do know that most percipitates formed by ammonia will dissolve in an excess of ammonia, so watch out for that.

Another pointer, cook your potassium carbonate first, to convert any bicarbonate to the carbonate. When percipitating calcium or magnesium carbonates, with bicarbonate. You have to boil the solution to complete the reaction. Carbonates dont require this step. Good luck!

Romix - 7-5-2024 at 17:59

Quote: Originally posted by Rainwater  
I didn't watch the video. I just read the transcript.
Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
What do you guys think, will all the steps in the video would work in real life?
Its on youtube so it has to be true. j/k
Quote:
In a video they're using HCl, I will use HNO3 instead and use Potassium Carbonate instead of Na2CO3 to drop remaining Calcium in solution.

The intermediate will be calcium nitrate and phosphoric acid. You can distille off any excess HNO3.
Then potassium nitrate, calcium carbonate percipitate, and phosphoric acid.

There may be a good reason to use HCl and not nitric, but google isnt finding much.
I do know that most percipitates formed by ammonia will dissolve in an excess of ammonia, so watch out for that.

Another pointer, cook your potassium carbonate first, to convert any bicarbonate to the carbonate. When percipitating calcium or magnesium carbonates, with bicarbonate. You have to boil the solution to complete the reaction. Carbonates dont require this step. Good luck!

Basically in the video they've dissolved incinerated bones in HCl, producing calcium chloride and Ca(H2PO4)2, then after filtering remainings of bones they've dropped CaHPO4 out of solution with NH4OH and they're saying that CaCl2 reacting with (NH4)2(HPO4) to make more CaHPO4. In the end of the video Calcium precipitated as carbonate out of the excess of CaCl2 in solution with Na2CO3

Romix - 7-5-2024 at 18:14

I want to make NPK fertilizer, Calcium won't hurt much, but plants don't like much of a Cl- anions. That's why I want to use HNO3.
Might work, might not...
Also all the water used to wash precipitates can be fed to plants.


[Edited on 8-5-2024 by Romix]

Romix - 7-5-2024 at 21:46

Been told, that reactions might even go with weak acetic acid instead of HCl.
Like that Ca3(PO4)2 + 4CH3COOH → Ca(H2PO4)2 + 2Ca(CH3COO)2.

Romix - 9-5-2024 at 17:35

Are these reactions correct?
Ca3(PO4)2 + 2HNO3 ⇄ Ca(NO3)2 + 2CaHPO4
2CaHPO4 + 2HNO3 ⇄ Ca(NO3)2 + Ca(H2PO4)2
Ca(H2PO4)2 + 2HNO3 ⇄ Ca(NO3)2 + 2H3PO4

Romix - 9-5-2024 at 17:44

So if this reactions with HNO3 will work, your advise about use of NH4OH and its dissolving cations back if in big excess, made me think about moving the PH past neutral more to the basic side from acidic with ammonia and not precipitating all Ca+2 out of solution with it.
Or maybe even use Potassium Carbonate to neutralize acids. Because there would be lots of Nitrogen already and almost no Potassium, plan is to feed this batch to my plants to see if they'll like it or not.


[Edited on 10-5-2024 by Romix]

Romix - 9-5-2024 at 17:47

Sample, will try remove more carbon out of them tomorrow in a day time... I thought it will smell much worse burning them... Not that bad....


92e65575-e7b5-43e6-91fd-d9cf72680906.jpeg - 87kB


[Edited on 10-5-2024 by Romix]

Romix - 9-5-2024 at 18:07

Is it possible to produce Phosphoric acid out of them?

Romix - 9-5-2024 at 18:29

Carbon that absorbed some of the nutrients while dissolving bones can be sprinkled in the soil... In theory plants should slowly absorb them.


[Edited on 10-5-2024 by Romix]

Rainwater - 9-5-2024 at 18:56

I would burn them bones until they are white. If not your solution will be difficult to filter. I've only played with making calcium metal from bones, my first batch looked like yours, it toook foreverrrr to filter after I got everything into solution
i think the nitric acid's lower pKa will cause calcium nitrate to form. All are good fertilizers.

Romix - 9-5-2024 at 18:58

Is this is a good reaction for Phosphate anions in solution??? Maybe you could recommend alternatives????
Ammonium Molybdate is available on Ebay...
Need to test my Alkali Acetate solutions of a plant ash for Phosphates and also dissolved bones too.

Screenshot2024-05-08005553.png.adfa4501902a18e77ce1112158d051b2.png - 267kB



[Edited on 10-5-2024 by Romix]

Romix - 9-5-2024 at 19:14

Any predictions what could dry Alkali Acetates decompose into at very high temperatures?
Like gas, liquid or could crystalize out as solid in the condenser and explode...


[Edited on 10-5-2024 by Romix]

bnull - 9-5-2024 at 21:15

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
What do you guys think, will all the steps in the video would work in real life?

Possibly yes. But it is a waste of time and reagents if you wan to use them as fertilizer. Why not use the crushed calcined bones themselves (they're sold like this, for example)? Plants don't care, and it is even better for the soil from a structural point of view. The main purposes of calcination are to eliminate any pathogens that may be in the bones and to avoid that animals dig up the soil to scavenge the bones.
Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
Any predictions what could dry Alkali Acetates decompose into at very high temperatures?
Like gas, liquid or could crystalize out as solid in the condenser and explode...

Carbon dioxide, methane, acetone, alkali oxides. As far as I remember, acetates don't volatilise.

Romix - 9-5-2024 at 21:59

Quote: Originally posted by bnull  
Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
What do you guys think, will all the steps in the video would work in real life?

Possibly yes. But it is a waste of time and reagents if you wan to use them as fertilizer. Why not use the crushed calcined bones themselves (they're sold like this, for example)? Plants don't care, and it is even better for the soil from a structural point of view. The main purposes of calcination are to eliminate any pathogens that may be in the bones and to avoid that animals dig up the soil to scavenge the bones.
Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
Any predictions what could dry Alkali Acetates decompose into at very high temperatures?
Like gas, liquid or could crystalize out as solid in the condenser and explode...

Carbon dioxide, methane, acetone, alkali oxides. As far as I remember, acetates don't volatilise.


You can crash bones after 2-3 minutes of burning with your fingers easily, won't be a problem crashing them.
Prices of conc. HNO3 in some places are like ~14L for 10£, but HCl is completely banned as precursor there. You won't get 10ml for that price in UK now days with out license... HCl 10% in UK 25L ~ 30£ now. Another place where battery electrolyte is legal to buy in any amounts...
From my experience even concentrated HCl produces hardly any Calcium salts from couple pipettes, while HNO3 producing a lot!
So burning a barrel full of bones is not a waste of time, if reagents are cheap, wood placed around the barrel is free, you could make fertilizer out of them and you will know for sure what's in it. I'm doing small batch of bones before I get to the barrel to practice.


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[Edited on 10-5-2024 by Romix]

Romix - 9-5-2024 at 22:12

After burning all organics out of the bones in a set up like on a picture above, rest of carbon can be removed in a stove while heating the house in cold winter, when there's no ICs left to ash...

[Edited on 10-5-2024 by Romix]

Romix - 10-5-2024 at 01:11

bnull thank you for the link, I like the prices, not bad... not seen the postage fees yet... Also I like that it's sterilized, had this problem with many soils, they aren't sterilized and after you'll get all kind of flies and bugs reproducing all over your house out of it, very annoying!!

[Edited on 10-5-2024 by Romix]

Romix - 11-5-2024 at 03:53

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
Is this is a good reaction for Phosphate anions in solution??? Maybe you could recommend alternatives????
Ammonium Molybdate is available on Ebay...
Need to test my Alkali Acetate solutions of a plant ash for Phosphates and also dissolved bones too.








Removed more carbon, bones were almost white, weighed them 20g.
Dripped 7 pipettes of HNO3, something definitely dissolved in bones lots of foam formed and also some visible NO2 appeared. Ok, bones stood in acid almost a day, from yesterday. Today tried to remove excess acid with pure Calcium Carbonate that I've removed out of plant ash, added 4 table spoons, until Carbonate stopped dissolving visibly, PH still was red. Left it for few hours to stand before filtering. Question is, would Calcium Nitrate prevent formation of yellow precipitate when testing for Phosphate anion in solution with Ammonium Molybdate?


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8947d67d-3e49-47b7-a9fc-f8345cf349d9.jpeg - 170kB




[Edited on 12-5-2024 by Romix]

Romix - 11-5-2024 at 03:56

And would this yellow precipitate form if any Phosphate would be present in a solution full of Alkali Acetates?

Romix - 11-5-2024 at 09:49

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
And would this yellow precipitate form if any Phosphate would be present in a solution full of Alkali Acetates?

As I understand the reaction, I don't need to add exactly HNO3 with Ammonium Molybdate, just need to make solution acidic, so with Alkali Acetates I could use strong Acetic Acid before adding Ammonium Molybdate.
Correct?

Romix - 13-5-2024 at 17:29

Quote: Originally posted by bnull  
Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
What do you guys think, will all the steps in the video would work in real life?

Possibly yes. But it is a waste of time and reagents if you wan to use them as fertilizer. Why not use the crushed calcined bones themselves (they're sold like this, for example)? Plants don't care, and it is even better for the soil from a structural point of view. The main purposes of calcination are to eliminate any pathogens that may be in the bones and to avoid that animals dig up the soil to scavenge the bones.
Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
Any predictions what could dry Alkali Acetates decompose into at very high temperatures?
Like gas, liquid or could crystalize out as solid in the condenser and explode...

Carbon dioxide, methane, acetone, alkali oxides. As far as I remember, acetates don't volatilise.

Bnull what are they like with customers buying KNO3? Do they report them to police, I like the price 51.60£ for 25kg, have paid 100£ for 5kg of 99.5% purity not long ago and police visited me and searched my house, but they let me keep it in the end...

[Edited on 14-5-2024 by Romix]

Romix - 13-5-2024 at 18:07

First crystals out of dissolved bones...
52de9359-29d7-4c88-a0fa-c6784252333a.jpeg.d9242e36f37047c40c23dcf33b04b98c.jpeg - 90kB

[Edited on 14-5-2024 by Romix]

Romix - 14-5-2024 at 00:04

Carbon that settled when I've poured water of it, I've put in a pot with massive fig tree, it seems like liking it!

bnull - 14-5-2024 at 03:28

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
Bnull what are they like with customers buying KNO3? Do they report them to police, I like the price 51.60£ for 25kg, have paid 100£ for 5kg of 99.5% purity not long ago and police visited me and searched my house, but they let me keep it in the end...

From their potassium nitrate page: "Due to changes in legislation, this product cannot be purchased online." I suppose that, with the d*ckheaded, terrorist a**holes using it to make bombs, they report nitrate sales to the police. Probably above some threshold. Twenty five kilos, well, either you are trying to save money on fertilizers or planning to show your discontent to the government.

Romix - 14-5-2024 at 07:01

I should receive 25g of Ammonium Molybdate in the next couple of days.
First I'll test it on K2HPO4 in 3 different test tubes, first test tube K2HPO4 solution as it is not adding nothing to it, other 2 I'll acidify, one with HNO3 and other with strong Acetic acid.
Then if any yellow precipitate will form, I'll test Alkali Acetates with it and what is dissolved in bones.

Romix - 15-5-2024 at 08:52

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
I should receive 25g of Ammonium Molybdate in the next couple of days.
First I'll test it on K2HPO4 in 3 different test tubes, first test tube K2HPO4 solution as it is not adding nothing to it, other 2 I'll acidify, one with HNO3 and other with strong Acetic acid.
Then if any yellow precipitate will form, I'll test Alkali Acetates with it and what is dissolved in bones.

Bullshit reaction from youtube, no precipitate in neither of a test tubes!!!!!!!!


[Edited on 15-5-2024 by Romix]

bnull - 15-5-2024 at 10:37

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
Bullshit reaction from youtube, no precipitate in neither of a test tubes!!!!!!!!

That's odd. Either you made a mistake or there is no phosphate at all (!). Or else the ammonum molybdate that came is not real ammonium molybdate. Very odd.
Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
Is this is a good reaction for Phosphate anions in solution???

Precipitation of phosphate as ammonium phosphomolybdate is one of the standard tests.
Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
Maybe you could recommend alternatives????

An alternative is given on pages 471-472 of Hamilton & Simpson's "Quantitative Chemical Analysis" (https://archive.org/details/quantitativechem00hami; you need an account to borrow). It uses hydrochloric and nitric acids, ammonium hydroxide, and magnesium chloride.

If you want to try the molybdate test again, it is on pages 469-470 of the same book, with the preparation of the ammonium molybdate solution described in the Appendix. As a control, use Coca-Cola, it has phosphoric acid.

Edit: Here's the link to the reference at the bottom of page 472 of the book: James I. Hoffman and G. E. F. Lundell, "Determination of phosphoric anhydride in phosphate rock, superphosphate, and 'metaphosphate'".

[Edited on 15-5-2024 by bnull]

Romix - 15-5-2024 at 10:49

Quote: Originally posted by bnull  
Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
Bullshit reaction from youtube, no precipitate in neither of a test tubes!!!!!!!!

That's odd. Either you made a mistake or there is no phosphate at all (!). Or else the ammonum molybdate that came is not real ammonium molybdate. Very odd.
Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
Is this is a good reaction for Phosphate anions in solution???

Precipitation of phosphate as ammonium phosphomolybdate is one of the standard tests.
Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
Maybe you could recommend alternatives????

An alternative is given on pages 471-472 of Hamilton & Simpson's "Quantitative Chemical Analysis" (https://archive.org/details/quantitativechem00hami; you need an account to borrow). It uses hydrochloric and nitric acids, ammonium hydroxide, and magnesium chloride.

If you want to try the molybdate test again, it is on pages 469-470 of the same book, with the preparation of the ammonium molybdate solution described in the Appendix. As a control, use Coca-Cola, it has phosphoric acid.

K2HPO4 and Ammonium Molybdate both are bought from APC pure.

EF2000 - 15-5-2024 at 10:56

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
I should receive 25g of Ammonium Molybdate in the next couple of days.
First I'll test it on K2HPO4 in 3 different test tubes, first test tube K2HPO4 solution as it is not adding nothing to it, other 2 I'll acidify, one with HNO3 and other with strong Acetic acid.
Then if any yellow precipitate will form, I'll test Alkali Acetates with it and what is dissolved in bones.

Bullshit reaction from youtube, no precipitate in neither of a test tubes!!!!!!!!
[Edited on 15-5-2024 by Romix]

It's not a bullshit reaction. It is widely used as test on phosphates.

You are, most likely doing it wrong. See Vogel's Qualitative Inorganic Analysis, pages 200-201 in 6th edition: https://archive.org/details/vogelsqualitativ0000voge/page/20....

Reaction involves 12 molybdate ions per one phosphate, and large complex molecule is formed (with interesting structure). It also involve 23 H+ ions. So the molybdate reagent should be added in excess and should be strongly acidic. Vogel says 2-3 ml to 0.5 ml of phosphate solution. Lab manual in our university says 5-6 drops of "molybdenum liquid"Note to 1-2 drops of phosphate solution, with heating. I, an absolute dummy, peformed that reaction during lab practice and got the precipitate.

Note: "molybdenum liquid" (literal translation from Russian) is a solution of ammonium molybdate, ammonium nitrate and 6 M nitric acid (~40% w/w). Vogel also says that ammonium nitrate accelerates the precipitation of phosphomolybdate complex.


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[Edited on 15-5-2024 by EF2000]

Romix - 17-5-2024 at 21:20

Yes, did something wrong the first time I did it, probably not put enough of Ammonium Molybdate in it.
Test works with pure phosphates, will it work with phosphates in less then 10% of mass with Calcium Nitrate or Alkali Acetates being the rest?



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[Edited on 18-5-2024 by Romix]