Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Most Cost-Effective Explosive

4-Stroke - 5-5-2024 at 18:20

Hello everyone! Although I have lurked here for quite some time now, this is my first post here, but nbk2000 isn't here, so I hope that's fine :D

What is the most cost-effective explosive to produce on a non-industrial scale? (This is purely for theoretical knowledge, I wouldn't skimp $10 on some synthesis even if I were to someday attempt one, and if I was a kewl, I would have just made TATP and killed myself ;)).

Theoretical key costs:
- Red Fuming Nitric Acid: ~$30/L
- Concentrated Sulfuric Acid: ~$15/L
- Potassium Nitrate: ~$10/KG
- Ammonium Nitrate: ~$10/KG
- Calcium Nitrate: ~$5/KG

Criteria:
- No unreasonably dangerous stuff like TATP
- Don't just try to bypass the 4 chemicals above (Like assume a reasonable price for Hexamine in RDX synthesis, but no U-235)
- Goal is the highest RE factor per $
- $2 per 1 RE factor > $1 per 0.5 RE factor because its easier to handle less material

So, this is some of what I have researched so far:
1. ANFO: Yeah, I know, isn't this the cheapest? Well, (in this scenario) it is $10/KG, so not too expensive, but, it has disadvantages like you need a very large booster to detonate it, its hydroscopic, large critical diameter, and its RE is only 0.74, so ANFO: 0.74/10$
2. Urea Nitrate: So you can get about 55g or it from 25g urea and 25ml RFNA. So $0.75 for RNFA and urea is free (NileRed would be proud). From what I read it has a about 0.9 RE factor, but without large critical diameter and is easier to detonate than AFNO while still being safe, so Urea Nitrate: 0.66/10$ but without the disadvantages
3. Nitrourea: 55g of urea nitrate + 180ml sulfuric acid = 30g nitrourea. This definitely is not cheap, but it if more powerful. So, Nitrourea: 0.15/10$
4. Astrolite G: So this is a mixture of ammonium nitrate and hydrazine in a 2:1 ratio. It is more powerful than even RDX, but that is the VoD and I couldn't find its RE so I will assume 1.6 as its close (I think). I don't know exactly how expensive it is to produce hydrazine, but probably it is quite so. So this is an explosive that is like a gel and it is more powerful than RDX, so it seems to be useful but expensive. So, Astrolite G: 1.6/AN + Hydrazine
5. The Rest: So for the rest, nitroglycerin and methyl nitrate need IIRC over 3 times their final yield of RFNA not including sulfuric acid and the starting material, so Nitroglycerin: 1L/$100. RDX is i think the same but just Hexamine instead of glycerin. PENT and ENT need stuff that might not be easy to buy and ENT uses quite a bit of acids.
So, it seems like ANFO is just the cheapest but unless you are detonating multi-kilogram quantities, it is better to just use urea nitrate as its safe, not too hard to detonate, easy to prepare, and almost as powerful as TNT.
I know that for the military when a single missile costs $1.5M, a few thousand dollars difference for the explosive will make zero difference so the just use the best one (RDX/HMX?), but I see so many amateurs use ENT, PENT, NG, and even AP instead of the much cheaper and safer urea nitrate, why? I am just curious as to why people decide to use other explosives. Or are there cheaper explosives that I just didn't know of? Because I am by no means an expert and I keep discovering new ones, so what is the cheapest one?

Thank you to everyone in advance (and sorry for the confusing post, I'm still learning and by no means an expert in anything! ;))

Yorty2040 - 5-5-2024 at 18:25

Sulfuric acid can be made from sodium bisulfate by heating it until it disproportionates, which is a lot cheaper than buying concentrated sulfuric acid. Though, you'll need some equipment to do so. This method will bring costs down, though distilling sulfuric acid via boiling is no joke. You need a hotplate that can get to 340ºC or higher.

If the sulfuric acid is just being used to make nitric acid from a salt, then you can just use sodium bisulfate directly by mixing it with a nitrate salt. When the bisulfate melts, it produces nitric acid, which distills over at a much lower temperature than sulfuric acid.

If you're making urea nitrate, the concentration of the nitric acid is largely irrelevant, so it's okay if the sodium bisulfate is a little wet.

If you want anhydrous nitric acid, though, you'll have to heat the bisulfate powder first before mixing it with the nitrate, and drive off the water of crystallization, since the stuff sold is usually the monohydrate.

Video of the process

[Edited on 6-5-2024 by Yorty2040]

Sir_Gawain - 5-5-2024 at 20:07

Aside from thermobarics, the cheapest explosives by weight are going to be ammonium nitrate based.

Hydrazine is insanely expensive and dangerous for the amateur to produce.

ETN and PETN are preferred over urea nitrate for smaller charges due to higher detonation velocity (8000m/s vs. 3500), better storage stability, and sensitivity. Urea nitrate is a good choice for large charges, though, and is easier to work with and requires a smaller booster than ANFO.

For binary ammonium nitrate explosives, try ANSU, ANwax, ammonal, or something similar. All these have higher sensitivity and workability than ANFO.

[Edited on 5-6-2024 by Sir_Gawain]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 5-5-2024 at 20:56

preparation TACN..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSbU1DDKivg

Properties TACN : https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=33...

Etanol - 5-5-2024 at 21:57

Critical diameter of ANFO is highly dependent on the cooking method and will make up from 30 to 150 mm. However, it has low brisance due to low density.

Why spend RNFA on Urea Nitrate? 20-50%-acid is enough. Urea Nitrate is an actively corrosion substance. A good ANFO is close to Urea Nitrate to the critical diameter and the initiating charge.

Nitrourea is chemically unstable during storage.

Astrolite G is very smelly and poisonous.
And you cannot cook a lot of hydrazine yourself. You will have to buy ready-made hydrazine.

Tacn, oh yes. But it is important to completely oxidize copper and copper(I) to the copper(II). Otherwise, you will receive a weak mixture of copper(I) and copper(II) ammiacates.

There are mixtures with good brisance based on an hexamine-ammonia nitrate alloy with resin, aluminum, CuO or TACN additives.

[Edited on 6-5-2024 by Etanol]

EF2000 - 6-5-2024 at 06:43

Quote: Originally posted by 4-Stroke  
but I see so many amateurs use ENT, PENT, NG, and even AP instead of the much cheaper and safer urea nitrate, why? I am just curious as to why people decide to use other explosives.

Maybe because most people here are doing experiments and having fun, not running routine blasting operations? Note that it's "sciencemadness.org", not "rockminingforum.org" or "ishtihad.is".

In terms of fun and experimental value, the most cost effective energetic material is ammonium perchlorate. About $20/kg. Safe, storable, not hydroscopic. And can be used for a lot of experiments: pyrotechnic mixtures (some of them even detonate), explosives (examples: CHP and glycine perchlorate), thermobaric compositions and rocket propellants.
With the same amount of cheaper, more available ammonium nitrate: 1001 of weak explosives, some decent rocket propellant, another decent propellant requiring expensive magnesium and specially treated AN, and rocky route to tetrazoles.
(disregard this, I'm biased)

Laboratory of Liptakov - 6-5-2024 at 06:59

I Agree that NH4ClO4 is basically universal compound. And his universality is a like buy only one wrench for replace engine in car....:cool:

dettoo456 - 6-5-2024 at 09:00

Quote: Originally posted by 4-Stroke  
Hello everyone! Although I have lurked here for quite some time now, this is my first post here, but nbk2000 isn't here, so I hope that's fine :D

What is the most cost-effective explosive to produce on a non-industrial scale? (This is purely for theoretical knowledge, I wouldn't skimp $10 on some synthesis even if I were to someday attempt one, and if I was a kewl, I would have just made TATP and killed myself ;)).

Theoretical key costs:
- Red Fuming Nitric Acid: ~$30/L
- Concentrated Sulfuric Acid: ~$15/L
- Potassium Nitrate: ~$10/KG
- Ammonium Nitrate: ~$10/KG
- Calcium Nitrate: ~$5/KG

Criteria:
- No unreasonably dangerous stuff like TATP
- Don't just try to bypass the 4 chemicals above (Like assume a reasonable price for Hexamine in RDX synthesis, but no U-235)
- Goal is the highest RE factor per $
- $2 per 1 RE factor > $1 per 0.5 RE factor because its easier to handle less material

So, this is some of what I have researched so far:
1. ANFO: Yeah, I know, isn't this the cheapest? Well, (in this scenario) it is $10/KG, so not too expensive, but, it has disadvantages like you need a very large booster to detonate it, its hydroscopic, large critical diameter, and its RE is only 0.74, so ANFO: 0.74/10$
2. Urea Nitrate: So you can get about 55g or it from 25g urea and 25ml RFNA. So $0.75 for RNFA and urea is free (NileRed would be proud). From what I read it has a about 0.9 RE factor, but without large critical diameter and is easier to detonate than AFNO while still being safe, so Urea Nitrate: 0.66/10$ but without the disadvantages
3. Nitrourea: 55g of urea nitrate + 180ml sulfuric acid = 30g nitrourea. This definitely is not cheap, but it if more powerful. So, Nitrourea: 0.15/10$
4. Astrolite G: So this is a mixture of ammonium nitrate and hydrazine in a 2:1 ratio. It is more powerful than even RDX, but that is the VoD and I couldn't find its RE so I will assume 1.6 as its close (I think). I don't know exactly how expensive it is to produce hydrazine, but probably it is quite so. So this is an explosive that is like a gel and it is more powerful than RDX, so it seems to be useful but expensive. So, Astrolite G: 1.6/AN + Hydrazine
5. The Rest: So for the rest, nitroglycerin and methyl nitrate need IIRC over 3 times their final yield of RFNA not including sulfuric acid and the starting material, so Nitroglycerin: 1L/$100. RDX is i think the same but just Hexamine instead of glycerin. PENT and ENT need stuff that might not be easy to buy and ENT uses quite a bit of acids.
So, it seems like ANFO is just the cheapest but unless you are detonating multi-kilogram quantities, it is better to just use urea nitrate as its safe, not too hard to detonate, easy to prepare, and almost as powerful as TNT.
I know that for the military when a single missile costs $1.5M, a few thousand dollars difference for the explosive will make zero difference so the just use the best one (RDX/HMX?), but I see so many amateurs use ENT, PENT, NG, and even AP instead of the much cheaper and safer urea nitrate, why? I am just curious as to why people decide to use other explosives. Or are there cheaper explosives that I just didn't know of? Because I am by no means an expert and I keep discovering new ones, so what is the cheapest one?

Thank you to everyone in advance (and sorry for the confusing post, I'm still learning and by no means an expert in anything! ;))


If you’re in the US, then you can scale down all of those prices pretty low. Duda sells conc Sulfuric Acid in bulk for ridiculously cheap, Wintersun has Nitric in bulk for cheap, and almost any farm supply will carry KNO3 and Ca(NO3)2 very inexpensively as well. Ammonium nitrate is the cheapest per ton (around $400 iirc) but it’s hard to find a place that’d sell you a ton. Also, although many people wouldn’t like to buy in bulk, I think the pure cost savings simply outweigh the price itself especially if you’re only paying <$400-500.

Erythritol is also cheap ~$2/lb from Jedwards.

Methylammonium Nitrate seems to be the best in terms of performance/price though. Cap sensitive, VOD of around 6.5km/s, and only requires Formaldehyde, AN, and some heating to produce.

4-Stroke - 6-5-2024 at 11:48

Quote:

Sulfuric acid can be made from sodium bisulfate by heating it until it disproportionates, which is a lot cheaper than buying concentrated sulfuric acid. Though, you'll need some equipment to do so. This method will bring costs down, though distilling sulfuric acid via boiling is no joke.

I remember reading that somewhere a long time ago, but how viable is for an amateur to actually do that? Also IIRC, the bisulfate first converts to pyrosulfate and only after it can decompose into sulfur trioxide at over 450°C. But believe it or not, I actually did distill about a liter of drain cleaner sulfuric acid over my half-broken Bunsen burner from AliExpress :D
Quote:

If the sulfuric acid is just being used to make nitric acid from a salt, then you can just use sodium bisulfate directly by mixing it with a nitrate salt. When the bisulfate melts, it produces nitric acid, which distills over at a much lower temperature than sulfuric acid.

I tried that once, but the yield seems to be lower than with sulfuric acid, and my entire backyard was filled with nitrogen dioxide because I forgot to prepare a wash bottle. The concentration seems to have been a bit lower as well, because although it did manage to ignite a nitrile glove, it took a good 30 seconds to ignite the glove after pouring the nitric acid all over it. But I didn't know that urea nitrate doesn't need high concentration nitric acid, so thanks for sharing that!
Quote:

Hydrazine is insanely expensive and dangerous for the amateur to produce.

You underestimate my disregard for safety ;), but yeah the price part seems true.
Quote:

ETN and PETN are preferred over urea nitrate for smaller charges due to higher detonation velocity (8000m/s vs. 3500), better storage stability, and sensitivity.

That's a good point. But just another question, what do you think is the cheapest powder explosive (NG can be the plasticizer) with a detonation velocity of >7000m/s?
Quote:

preparation TACN..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSbU1DDKivg

Thank you Dr. ! That is definitely a very good and safe explosive, but unfortunately me its very hard and expensive to get NH4ClO4 in Canada :(
Quote:

Critical diameter of ANFO is highly dependent on the cooking method and will make up from 30 to 150 mm. However, it has low brisance due to low density.

I think that I heard 150mm somewhere, but I never read that it can be just 30mm. Now that sounds a lot better. What must be done to achieve such a low critical diameter, if you know? Yeah the low brisance part is the main problem. So no shaped charges, etc. But so is urea nitrate, so neither will work for that.
Quote:

Why spend RNFA on Urea Nitrate? 20-50%-acid is enough.

Wow, I didn't know that the concentration can be THAT low! Somebody a bit earlier said it already, but if 20% will suffice, that means that it might even be possible to use nitric acid without distillation! That would make the manufacture process a lot easier.

Quote:

Maybe because most people here are doing experiments and having fun, not running routine blasting operations?

That is true, but if you want a kaboom and have a limited budget, why not get twice the kaboom for the same amount of money? And if the only goal is just to "explore the science" then what's even the point of making more than 5g at once?
Quote:

In terms of fun and experimental value, the most cost effective energetic material is ammonium perchlorate.

Unfortunately, it is very expensive and hard to get in Canada (Just like all nitrates except for calcium nitrate, nitric acid, concentrated hydrogen peroxide, chlorates + perchlorates, etc.), so it's out of the question :(
Quote:

Duda sells conc Sulfuric Acid in bulk for ridiculously cheap, Wintersun has Nitric in bulk for cheap

Thank you! Although I m not in the US (I'm in Canada), this still does seem like a good source for at least the sulfuric acid if I find a way to somehow ship to Canada. But not the nitric unfortunately, as it's illegal to buy over 68% concentration without a license. But I'll definitely save the website, thank you!
Quote:

almost any farm supply will carry KNO3 and Ca(NO3)2 very inexpensively as well.

KNO3 is basically impossible to get here, but surprisingly calcium nitrate IS available in most garden shops. The cheapest I have found is about $65 for 50lb. But buying An will summon all letter-boys simultaneously :D. That's why I have to make it myself if I need it.
Quote:

Erythritol is also cheap ~$2/lb from Jedwards.

Thanks, that's interesting. I'll save the website. But ENT still needs a lot of the acids, so that remains a problem.
Quote:

Methylammonium Nitrate seems to be the best in terms of performance/price though. Cap sensitive, VOD of around 6.5km/s, and only requires Formaldehyde, AN, and some heating to produce.

Here in Canada, heating is the only one the three that isn't too expensive, and only during summer! So yeah, no methylammonium nitrate :(

Thank you everyone for your replies! I didn't expect soo many people to help me, so I'm very glad that you all did. Also sorry for this long loooong post once again.

underground - 6-5-2024 at 12:57

The cheapest nitro compount i can think of is nitroguanidine. It can easily be made from urea and AN fertilizer grade or from store bought guanidite nitrate. Now the problem with NQ is well known so derivatives of nitroguanidine could be the solution.

Sir_Gawain - 6-5-2024 at 13:59

Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Now the problem with NQ is well known so derivatives of nitroguanidine could be the solution.
Are you referring to the abysmal density? If so, yeah, that’s the biggest problem with it.

Yorty2040 - 6-5-2024 at 15:31

Quote: Originally posted by Sir_Gawain  
Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Now the problem with NQ is well known so derivatives of nitroguanidine could be the solution.
Are you referring to the abysmal density? If so, yeah, that’s the biggest problem with it.


Yeah, I've found that once you recrystallize it the needles are useless as an explosive unless you have a hydraulic press to crush them back into a powder.

Recrystallizing them from n-methylpyrrolidone offers better density, but seriously, especially for amateurs, screw that procedure with a rusty fork.

gnitseretni - 7-5-2024 at 15:45

I'd just get tannerite. I used to add 100% nitromethane to it. Never had issues detonating it with a homemade detonator. Bought the nitromethane on eBay. But it's been a while so it may not be available anymore. Even if it's not the most cost effective, the time you save vs making your own HE in the same quantity is well worth it. Just my 2 cents.

[Edited on 5-7-2024 by gnitseretni]

[Edited on 5-7-2024 by gnitseretni]

Yorty2040 - 7-5-2024 at 16:57

Not sure Canada sells the stuff, since gun culture is way less of a thing there and Tannerite is used for binary target mixes.

4-Stroke - 7-5-2024 at 17:13

Yep. In Canada, you can't even dream of buying ready explosives without getting 754 licenses and a personal approval from the Queen herself. You can't buy KNO3, ammonium nitrate, nitric acid, nitromethane, and other stuff either. The only nitrate I can get is calcium nitrate, and I have to make the rest out of it. At least there still is sulfuric acid drain opener.

gnitseretni - 7-5-2024 at 17:48

Ah, yeah that makes things a tad more difficult.