Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Preparation of Hydrogen Cyanide

Pok - 22-1-2024 at 18:10

Hydrogen cyanide is extremely toxic. Breathing even small amounts can kill you. The preparation of HCN must be done in a good fume hood or in a very well ventilated area outside. Make sure that the wind never blows any vapours into your face. Prussic acid is not suitable as a homicidal poison. It's super easy to detect and you're immediately convicted as the killer. Please don't poison yourself with it either. Death can be very painful. Nobody wants to die like that. Please: search for professional help, if you think about killing yourself.


Procedure: I added 300 grams of 50 % sulfuric acid into a 1 liter erlenmeyer flask with stir bar. A Liebig condenser and a receiving flask (ice cooled) were attached. Under fast stirring, I added 250 grams of powdered potassium ferrocyanide trihydrate.

Momentaufnahme 1 (23.01.2024 02-20).png - 188kB

A bluish white slurry formed.

Momentaufnahme 2 (23.01.2024 02-21).png - 168kB

I switched on the heating and after some minutes of stirring the first liquid condensed, but it wasn't very warm. The liquid is a mixture of hydrogen cyanide with a bit of water. When less hydrogen cyanide condensed, the temperature was raised from time to time in small steps. When the drops didn't wet the glass anymore, the majority of the hydrogen cyanide is driven off and the condensing liquid consists mainly of water.

Momentaufnahme 3 (23.01.2024 02-21).png - 187kB

At this point, stirring and heating were switched off. I received about 80 milliliters of HCN, contaminated with traces of sulfuric acid and some water.

Momentaufnahme 4 (23.01.2024 02-22).png - 155kB

The residue in the erlenmeyer flask is a yellowish slurry with a blue surface, containing half of the cyanide.

Momentaufnahme 6 (23.01.2024 02-23).png - 201kB

This can be recycled (explained further below). The impure hydrogen cyanide had to be dried. I combined two batches of HCN (from this 250 g ferrocyanide + from another 80 g). I used anhydrous calcium chloride, made by heating CaCl2 dihydrate. CaCl2 was added in small portions and the flask was swirled around. At the bottom, a layer of aqueous saturated CaCl2 solution formed and the supernant became cloudy.

Momentaufnahme 7 (23.01.2024 02-24).png - 96kB

I added more CaCl2 until the supernant was clear again, and sucked up the CaCl2 solution with a pipette. This was discarded. To stabilize the anhydrous HCN, one can use a tiny amount of 85 % phosphoric acid. I added a small drop (~30 mg) into a washing bottle.

Momentaufnahme 9 (23.01.2024 02-25).png - 121kB

The HCN was again distilled directly from the flask, still containing the calcium chloride, into the ice-cooled receiving flask (washing bottle). I also added some peaces of anhydrous calcium chloride into the condenser. The HCN boiled at about 25 °C (in a water bath).

Momentaufnahme 10 (23.01.2024 02-25).png - 199kB

The temperature was rised slowly. When no more liquid condensed, the operation was done (at about 40-50 °C of the water bath). The residue was still wet and contained some hydrogen cyanide.

Momentaufnahme 11 (23.01.2024 02-26).png - 219kB

Weight of the anhydrous HCN from 330 grams of ferrocyanide: 58 grams.
Yield: 92 % (based on the reaction scheme)

The density was measured with a volumetrical flask and an electronic scale.
Measured density: 0.6924 g/ml
Theoretical density: 0.6876 g/ml

I filled all of the hydrogen cyanide in ampoules and sealed them with a bunsen burner.

Momentaufnahme 12 (23.01.2024 02-27).png - 142kB

After more than one year, the HCN in all of them is still crystal clear. I also made some unstabilised HCN (without phosphoric acid). After one day, they looked yellowish (left ampoule):

Momentaufnahme 13 (23.01.2024 02-27).png - 111kB

After one year, the unstabilised HCN formed a brown solid (left ampoule).

Momentaufnahme 14 (23.01.2024 02-27).png - 196kB

Momentaufnahme 15 (23.01.2024 02-28).png - 221kB

So even 0.05 % of phosphoric acid prevents this polymerisation reaction for more than one year (according to the literature: even much longer).

Recycling of the side product: The residue from the preparation is so called Everitt's Salt. To convert this back to ferrocyanide, the erlenmeyer flask was left open, so that the salt could be oxidised by air. I occasionally swirled the flask. When the whole mixture was dark blue, the oxidation was complete.

Momentaufnahme 16 (23.01.2024 02-28).png - 116kB

I filtered and dried the blue compound.

Momentaufnahme 17 (23.01.2024 02-29).png - 266kB

The filtrate was neutralised with some soda and flushed down the drain. The blue compound was added to a soda solution, containing about 45 grams of soda in 600 ml water.

Momentaufnahme 18 (23.01.2024 02-29).png - 182kB

Under stirring, the whole mixture was heated and more soda added in small portions until the colour changed to brown.

Momentaufnahme 19 (23.01.2024 02-29).png - 142kB

While still warm, I filtered it.

Momentaufnahme 20 (23.01.2024 02-29).png - 157kB

The filtrate was evaporated somewhat, cooled, and the yellow crystals of ferrocyanide collected.

Momentaufnahme 21 (23.01.2024 02-30).png - 145kB

The rest of the filtrate was evaporated to dryness and the residue was combined with the crystals. The stuff in the filter is iron oxide. I dried, weighted and discarded it.

Momentaufnahme 22 (23.01.2024 02-30).png - 178kB

Yield: 121 grams of Na/K ferrocyanide hydrate (less than expected, I don't know why)
Weight of the iron oxide: 40 grams (more than expected, I don't know why)

I successfully used the recycled salt in another batch.


Explanation:

Potassium ferrocyanide reacts with sulfuric acid to form hydrogen cyanide, potassium hydrogen sulfate and a complex salt, called Everitt's Salt.

2 K4[Fe(CN)6] + 6 H2SO4 → 6 HCN + 6 KHSO4 + K2Fe[Fe(CN)6]

As you can see, only half of the cyanide is converted to hydrogen cyanide. With this method, that's the maximum yield. A patent claimes that you can get 100 % yield by using copper chloride as a catalyst.

The Everitt's Salt can be recycled in two steps. First the oxidation by air:

4 K2Fe[Fe(CN)6] + 4 KHSO4 + O2 → 4 K[Fe2(CN)6] + 4 K2SO4 + 2 H2O

The product is called Prussian Blue. This is a pigment, from which HCN was first made in early days. That's why HCN is also called "Prussic Acid".

To convert Prussian Blue to Ferrocyanide, it can be reacted with soda:

4 K[Fe2(CN)6] + 6 Na2CO3 → K4(Fe(CN)6) + 3 Na4(Fe(CN)6) + 6 CO2 + 2 Fe2O3

The product is K/Na ferrocyanide in the molar ration 1:3. If you use potash instead of soda, you will get pure potassium ferrocyanide.


Sources:

Preparation of anhydrous HCN:

Trautwein: Darstellung der trocknen Blausäure (a). In: Gmelin, L. (1848) Handbuch der organischen Chemie: Organische Chemie im Allgemeinen. - Organische Verbindungen mit 2 und 4 Atomen Kohlenstoff. 4. Auflage, Heidelberg, Winter, p. 314.

Stabilisation of HCN with H3PO4:

Walker (1938) Stabilization of liquid hydrocyanic acid. Patent US2194370A.

Reaction schemes:

Kraft (2014). On the History of Prussian Blue: Thomas Everitt (1805-1845) and Everitts Salt. Bulletin for the history of chemistry / Division of the History of Chemistry of the American Chemical Society. 39. p. 18-25.

Czelechowsky, J. R. (1841) Chemisches Wörterbuch zum Gebrauche Ärzte, Pharmaceuten, etc, Carl Gerold, p. 144.

Catalysed HCN production:

Dewrance & Williams (1909) Verfahren zur Darstellung von Alkalicyanid. Kaiserliche Patentschrift Nr. 224950.

Pok - 22-1-2024 at 18:13

This is just a q&d description. I'm also making a video about it with more details and better footage....

HCN.jpg - 106kB

....and some experiments with HCN and so on. But I don't know, where to upload it.



pantone159 - 22-1-2024 at 19:55

That photo is beautiful and horrifying at the same time :)

woelen - 23-1-2024 at 00:46

Beautiful write-up.

Interesting to see that you can isolate such pure HCN from a an innocuous chemical like potassium ferrocyanide. Also good to know that phosphoric acid stabilizes HCN.

Do you have plans for further interesting experiments with HCN? It sounds like a really interesting, albeit it somewhat scary, chemical. Only something for people who really know what they are doing and know the risks of working with it.

Does it also stabilize aqueous solutions of HCN, prepared from NaCN or KCN and some acid?

kmno4 - 23-1-2024 at 01:16


I like it very much, really. I perforformed it (many times) without HCN isolation in larger amounts, just droples of distiiled off HCN were introduced directly into ethanolic KOH solution.
Formation of very acid-stable K2Fe[Fe(CN)6] is annoying, I also converted it back to K4[Fe(CN)6] (with KOH), but it is very messy job.
Much better solution is using small amount of CuCl "catalyst" (see 'cyanide thread'). It distroys all ferrocyanide, via CuCN formation and destruction*.


Quote:
Please: search for professional help, if you think about killing yourself

It sounds very, very oddly :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

*E.Williams, J. of the Soc. of Chem. Ind., 1912, pages 468-471


[Edited on 23-1-2024 by kmno4]

unionised - 23-1-2024 at 05:17

Everyone knows that HCN is very toxic.

Not many people realise it's explosive.
https://www.icheme.org/media/8681/paper-52-hazards-25.pdf

Sealing explosive, toxic chemicals in glass ampoules is... not recommended.

Bedlasky - 23-1-2024 at 05:44

Very interesting! I am looking forward to that video.

I found years ago very interesting document about chemistry of liquid HCN and saved it. Look at it, maybe you find some inspiration for interesting experiments with HCN.

Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
Everyone knows that HCN is very toxic.

Not many people realise it's explosive.
https://www.icheme.org/media/8681/paper-52-hazards-25.pdf

Sealing explosive, toxic chemicals in glass ampoules is... not recommended.


Wow, I haven't know that hydrogen cyanide can explode on its own!

[Edited on 23-1-2024 by Bedlasky]

Pok - 23-1-2024 at 05:49

Explosive polymerisation is possible, but very rare in small amounts, I think. It's true that my two unstabilised ampoules could have exploded. But if you stabilise the HCN the way I described it, no explosions can occur.

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
Do you have plans for further interesting experiments with HCN? It sounds like a really interesting, albeit it somewhat scary, chemical. Only something for people who really know what they are doing and know the risks of working with it.

I initially made it as reagent to make a complex compound and to make pure KCN for other experiments. But I just made much more than needed to examine some of its properties. I will show some HCN properties in this thread.

Yes, it's really dangerous stuff, especially if you belong to the people who can't smell it. The smell (rather a stink) is the last warning sign, in my opinion. Two or three times I smelled more than a faint fragrance and I quickly felt dizzy.

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
Does it also stabilize aqueous solutions of HCN, prepared from NaCN or KCN and some acid?

I don't know, but aqueous solutions are said to be stabilised by many acids at least for some time. Before drying the crude HCN (contaminated with only a tiny bit of sulfuric acid and a few percent of water) I stored it in the freezer for nearly two weeks and it still looked perfectly clear. But as soon as it was free of water and free of traces of acid, it turned yellow within one day even in the freezer. According to the patent, phosphoric acid is by far the best stabiliser. I could imagine that this is also true for aqueous HCN, if it's very dilute.

I did the preparation in 2020 and checked the stabilised ampoules just a few weeks ago. They all still look perfect. Although the stabilised product doesn't seem to be light-sensitive, I store it in complete darkness. I think it will be unaltered for some decades.

Quote: Originally posted by kmno4  
Much better solution is using small amount of CuCl "catalyst" (see 'cyanide thread'). It distroys all ferrocyanide, via CuCN formation and destruction*.

Yes, I also read this after performing the experiments. Sounds much better, though I'm a bit sceptical about the chloride. Doesn't it form HCl? I'm afraid it could contaminate the product. Maybe one can use copper sulfate to avoid this.

Quote: Originally posted by kmno4  
Quote:
Please: search for professional help, if you think about killing yourself

It sounds very, very oddly :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Unfortunately, many people search for this compound for this purpose. There is a certain rule for journalists that they at least add this helping info, to stop people from doing that. So I just also did it.

[Edited on 23-1-2024 by Pok]

ItalianChemist - 23-1-2024 at 06:57

Very nice work! I love these ampuoles :D
It is interesting to see that adenine is formed after polymerazion of HCN

Bedlasky - 23-1-2024 at 07:12

Quote: Originally posted by ItalianChemist  
Very nice work! I love these ampuoles :D
It is interesting to see that adenine is formed after polymerazion of HCN


Yeah, I found that interesting too! Good idea for some sci-fi or fantasy story on the planet with HCN oceans and HCN based life :D.

Properties of Hydrogen Cyanide

Pok - 24-1-2024 at 08:18

HCN has a low viscosity. When you shake it, small "waves" can be seen:
HCN viscosity.jpg - 155kB

When frozen in a fridge, it solidifies to an ice-like solid:
solid HCN.jpg - 155kB

During melting, the solid sinks to the buttom (unlike ice in water):
solid HCN 2.jpg - 142kB

It's very volatile. Boiling point: ~ 26 °C. When some of it is poured on a warm surface, it vaporises rapidly:
HCN on hand.jpg - 138kB
Note: this should not be repeated. My hand was warm and dry. I blew hard to let the HCN evaporate within 3-5 seconds. Under other circumstances, this could be dangerous.

Some old textbooks say, that hydrogen cyanide can partially freeze during evaporation due to the cooling effect. I slowly let flow some of it out of a pipette on a cold day (+ 10 °C) with high air humidity. An "icicle" formed. I doubt that this is solid HCN. I rather think it's frozen water vapour. On the other hand, the water should dissolve in the liquid HCN, so this is a bit strange:
HCN ice.jpg - 74kB

HCN ice 2.jpg - 73kB

HCN is said to burn with a bluish flame. Unfortunately, this wasn't the case in my experiment. It looked like burning ethanol:
burning hydrogen cyanide.jpg - 56kB

HCN is a very weak acid. It doesn't react with soda:
HCN + Na2CO3.jpg - 176kB
From left to right: dilute H2SO4 (reaction already complete), dilute acetic acid, pure HCN

The anhydrous liquid doesn't even react with magnesium powder:
HCN + Mg.jpg - 160kB
From left to right: dilute H2SO4 (reaction already complete), dilute acetic acid, pure HCN

But if some water is added, it reacts violently with it (right test tube):
HCN + Mg 2.jpg - 165kB

A pH test paper confirms that HCN is a weak acid. The paper doesn't change its colour:
HCN pH.jpg - 116kB
left: H2SO4 (10 %), middle: acetic acid (10 %), right: HCN (~ 50 %)

Nevertheless, HCN is of course dangerous due to it's toxicity. I caught a mosquito* and tested this. After 10 seconds, it was dead:
HCN toxicity 2.jpg - 269kB

HCN toxicity 3.jpg - 231kB

HCN toxicity 4.jpg - 266kB

*I love animals, but I would have killed this mosquito anyway. So I find it ethically legitimate so sacrifice it for this experiment.

Further experiments (in planning):
- qualitative HCN test (paper)
- pur HCN into ethanolic KOH solution to show the formation of a salt

When this is done, I can finish the video and upload it somewhere.

Belowzero - 24-1-2024 at 09:51

Very nice, thank you for sharing this with us.
Perhaps you can consider writing a report for the prepublication section.

Tsjerk - 24-1-2024 at 11:28

That demo with your finger, :), I love it.

Quote: Originally posted by Pok  

Under other circumstances, this could be dangerous.


Lmao

[Edited on 24-1-2024 by Tsjerk]

Bedlasky - 24-1-2024 at 12:29

Quote: Originally posted by Bedlasky  
Very interesting! I am looking forward to that video.

I found years ago very interesting document about chemistry of liquid HCN and saved it. Look at it, maybe you find some inspiration for interesting experiments with HCN.

[Edited on 23-1-2024 by Bedlasky]


Sorry, I noticed that I didn't post link to that paper :D. Here it is:

https://sci-hub.se/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...

There are mentioned some colorful transition metal complexes of HCN in table 5 and 6.

Fery - 24-1-2024 at 20:54

Great! Keep up good work. Also perfect experiment with the mosquito, so everyone could imagine how quickly the HCN causes its lethal effect. There was a forum in my country, but is already dead. 20 y ago a member with nick Cyano posted there his experiments with HCN distillation in his cellar and that all the rats there died (luckily he survived). Antidotes are inhaling amyl nitrite + O2, intravenous infusion of NaNO2 and Na2S2O3, vitamin B12 and many more.

edit: I found his post in an archive in my harddisk, I like to save interesting things as they can disappear in the future, the forum had a name PXD:

Quote:
od: cyano 01.07.2003, 02:44:32
Též jsem dělal kapalný kyanovodík-- ale podcenil jsem délku chladiče a teplotu chladicí kapaliny-- byla 17 st, je zde nutná teplota kolem nuly. Došlo k explozi aparatury--nic se nestalo, pokus jsem dělěl ve sklepě rod. domku-- ale vše je k něčemu dobré-- pochcípali potkani--našl jsem jich další den asi 5-7 , nevím , bylo to před lety, když jsem chodil na gympl.

here the translation into eng:
I also did liquid hydrogen cyanide - but I underestimated the length of the condenser and the temperature of the cooling liquid - it was 17 C, the required temperature is around zero. There was an explosion of the apparatus - nothing happened, I was doing the experiment in the basement of the family house - but everything is good for something - the rats perished - I found about 5-7 of them the next day, I don't know, it was years ago when I studied Gymnasium (Gymnazium in my country is analogy of high school or grammar school).


[Edited on 25-1-2024 by Fery]

Admagistr - 24-1-2024 at 21:56

@Fery: You did some rough experiments when you were in high school! I remember one of our Forum members, he was a tenager, he was not even 15 years old, died trying to make HCN! I think his nickname was Myfanvy2013, or something like that...Glad you're alive;)

woelen - 25-1-2024 at 00:41

Beautiful and very interesting set of experiments with the HCN. The experiment with the liquid evaporating on your finger must be quite thrilling :o . I would be quite nervous about this. A dose of 50 mg can kill an adult healthy person!

Lionel Spanner - 25-1-2024 at 09:21

Excellent write-up: you're extremely brave for carrying out this work (much more so than I am), and you clearly know what you're doing.

On a similar subject, I have come across a claim on the wiki that calcining Prussian Blue with molten caustic soda produces sodium cyanide directly, without forming any intermediate HCN. It would be a very useful method if true, but I've not been able to find any supporting sources, probably because my search-fu game is weak.

[Edited on 25-1-2024 by Lionel Spanner]

Fery - 25-1-2024 at 10:31

Quote: Originally posted by Admagistr  
@Fery: You did some rough experiments when you were in high school! I remember one of our Forum members, he was a tenager, he was not even 15 years old, died trying to make HCN! I think his nickname was Myfanvy2013, or something like that...Glad you're alive;)

The young last classes of elementary school aged guy who died used the nick Virius, he made a lot of acetone peroxide and we knew only thanks to his friend with the nick mistr.vodic who wrote us what happened (mistr.vodic was only the tester of the product and the poor Virius only the producer). It happened in February 2006.

[Edited on 25-1-2024 by Fery]

Admagistr - 25-1-2024 at 11:54

Quote: Originally posted by Fery  
Quote: Originally posted by Admagistr  
@Fery: You did some rough experiments when you were in high school! I remember one of our Forum members, he was a tenager, he was not even 15 years old, died trying to make HCN! I think his nickname was Myfanvy2013, or something like that...Glad you're alive;)

The young last classes of elementary school aged guy who died used the nick Virius, he made a lot of acetone peroxide and we knew only thanks to his friend with the nick mistr.vodic who wrote us what happened (mistr.vodic was only the tester of the product and the poor Virius only the producer). It happened in February 2006.

[Edited on 25-1-2024 by Fery]


I found it: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=13...
In another thread, which I can't find right now, he is listed in our list of members who died in their experiments. It said he was doing experiments with HCN. His nickname was myfanwy94 and he was about 15 years old.

[Edited on 25-1-2024 by Admagistr]

Fery - 25-1-2024 at 20:33

Quote: Originally posted by Admagistr  
I found it: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=13...
In another thread, which I can't find right now, he is listed in our list of members who died in their experiments. It said he was doing experiments with HCN. His nickname was myfanwy94 and he was about 15 years old.

Thx for the link. Be all safe and enjoy chemistry. This is apparently another guy as he was posting in 2010. The guy I mentioned was a member of PXD or later cz pyroforum and that disaster happened in Feb 2006. He was posting in cz language in one of those forums (his friend or maybe schoolmate too), not here in sciencemadness.
Back to topic, it's heartwarming to see skilled forumers here and the beautiful experiments and pictures most of us won't have braveness to do. They are inspiring all of us. The route via HCN seems to be the right way how to further produce very pure NaCN / KCN. Also very informative how to stabilize the product for its longer storage (I didn't know about its polymerization at all). Also very useful how to take in account the economy and recover half of the reactant to be reused in subsequent reactions.

Pok - 26-1-2024 at 03:48

Quote: Originally posted by Bedlasky  
There are mentioned some colorful transition metal complexes of HCN in table 5 and 6.

Nice. Cyanides are really a good starting material to do a ton of interesting chemistry.

Quote: Originally posted by Fery  
Antidotes are inhaling amyl nitrite + O2, intravenous infusion of NaNO2 and Na2S2O3, vitamin B12 and many more.

I didn't even know that antidotes exist. I just found out that a KGB agent killed two famous Ukranians with an HCN filled "gun" during the cold war. One of them was Stepan Bandera. I often read his name in the media (related to the war in Ukraine). Right before the attack, the agent indeed took a pill of sodium thiosulfate and immediately afterwards he inhaled amyl nitrite.

kmno4 - 27-1-2024 at 12:33


Stepan Bandera is a hero in Ukraine, it is true.
But in reality, he was ultra-nationalist collaborating with Nazi Germany and was responsible for ethnic cleansing. Ukrainians love him, but unfortunately, for me he is (more or less) a bandit. By the way of Germany in II WW.
They made large use of HCN for mass murderes in their Death Camps. Of cource, it was Zyklon B, produced escpecially for this purpose by German industry. Yes, genocide on industrial scale. It is very sad, especially when young Germans say that it was not Germans, it was some Nazists.....
It is called "relativization of history".
BTW.
Most of murderers from Death Camp were not Germans, but Austrians. Also Adolf H. was an Austrian.
Today, Austrians are very angry when somebody gives these facts and wish that all other people forget about it :P


[Edited on 27-1-2024 by kmno4]

Admagistr - 27-1-2024 at 13:54

Quote: Originally posted by kmno4  

Stepan Bandera is a hero in Ukraine, it is true.
But in reality, he was ultra-nationalist collaborating with Nazi Germany and was responsible for ethnic cleansing. Ukrainians love him, but unfortunately, for me he is (more or less) a bandit. By the way of Germany in II WW.
They made large use of HCN for mass murderes in their Death Camps. Of cource, it was Zyklon B, produced escpecially for this purpose by German industry. Yes, genocide on industrial scale. It is very sad, especially when young Germans say that it was not Germans, it was some Nazists.....
It is called "relativization of history".
BTW.
Most of murderers from Death Camp were not Germans, but Austrians. Also Adolf H. was an Austrian.
Today, Austrians are very angry when somebody gives these facts and wish that all other people forget about it :P

I read that during WWII the Ukrainians initially welcomed the Germans with the hope that they would liberate them from the Russians.Maybe the Bandera felt the same way, that the Germans would liberate them from the Russians? Yes the HCN was massively abused to murder defenceless and innocent people especially Jews, killing millions of them!!!


[Edited on 27-1-2024 by Admagistr]

DraconicAcid - 27-1-2024 at 15:25

Quote: Originally posted by Admagistr  
I read that during WWII the Ukrainians initially welcomed the Germans with the hope that they would liberate them from the Russians.Maybe the Bandera felt the same way, that the Germans would liberate them from the Russians?


Yeah, a lot of Ukrainians considered the Nazis to be the lesser of two evils- the Nazis talked about killing millions of Jews, but the Stalinists had already killed ten million Ukrainians. Tough to blame them.

Pok - 27-1-2024 at 15:47

As a German I have to say that it's absolutely true that Germans murdered millions of people, mostly Jews, with HCN. Sure, only a few murered with HCN, but practically all the others murdered by guns or making weapons, propaganda, etc. If we talk about history and politics, this must of course be said and not hidden. In the concentration camps they murdered in an "industrial" or "professional" way so that the murders didn't even had to fear poisoning themselves. As far as I know, they didn't use antidotes and not a single murderer was poisoned. I took the case of Bandera, because it's the only documentad case I know of in which antidotes have been used.

Admagistr - 27-1-2024 at 15:56

Yeah, a lot of Ukrainians considered the Nazis to be the lesser of two evils- the Nazis talked about killing millions of Jews, but the Stalinists had already killed ten million Ukrainians. Tough to blame them.[/rquote]

Yes, Stalin was probably a bit worse than Hitler, he also had concentration camps in Siberia, he killed a lot more people, also because he ruled longer. He was even a secret anti-semite and killed Jews too. Also, Stalin had a secret agreement with Hitler and they divided Poland and he even celebrated Hitler's birthday and admired Hitler before Hitler invaded Russia. Stalin didn't believe he would do it, he had him as a friend whom he respected.

[Edited on 28-1-2024 by Admagistr]

Admagistr - 27-1-2024 at 16:21

Quote: Originally posted by Pok  
As a German I have to say that it's absolutely true that Germans murdered millions of people, mostly Jews, with HCN. Sure, only a few murered with HCN, but practically all the others murdered by guns or making weapons, propaganda, etc. If we talk about history and politics, this must of course be said and not hidden. In the concentration camps they murdered in an "industrial" or "professional" way so that the murders didn't even had to fear poisoning themselves. As far as I know, they didn't use antidotes and not a single murderer was poisoned. I took the case of Bandera, because it's the only documentad case I know of in which antidotes have been used.


Yes I appreciate your answer very much and very bad things need to be spoken truthfully, admitted so they can be forgiven and healed!

kmno4 - 29-1-2024 at 06:06

Sorry, it has nothing to do with very interesting posts by Pok, but I have to write some additional "historical" comments.

Quote:
I read that during WWII the Ukrainians initially welcomed the Germans with the hope that they would
liberate them from the Russians.Maybe the Bandera felt the same way, that the Germans would liberate them
from the Russians?

No, no, it is not so simple like this. It is highly complex issue.
Have you heard about "Volhynian slaughter" ? If no - visit wikipedia, for example. You do not have to belive me, but you should belive the facts.

Quote:
.... and very bad things need to be spoken truthfully, admitted so they can be forgiven and healed!

I agree with it, but only partly.
During IIWW, Germans killed more than 6000000 Polish citizens.The city Warsaw (capital) was completely
ruined and distroyed - at Hitler's behest, in revange for Warsaw Uprising. Germans looted coutless amount of works of art from Poland. For helping Jews (food, hiding... anything), the only punishment was death - occupied Poland was the only country, where German invedrs introduced such "law". Read (if you wish) about the Ulma family or Zegota (Żegota). Another thing - forced, slave labour in Germany on very large scale...

All these bad things can be (and should be) forgiven. However, there is one big "but". Up to now, Germany did not make any finantial compensation for all these damages to Poland (but few cases). They say that "everything is already set, fixed and done - we have nothing to talk about".
Nowdays, when I hear about legality, the rule of law,forgivness, guilt etc... from German politicians, I hear empty words and historical irony.
I know from persons working in Germany few years ago, that some (but large) part of German people still
treat the Slavic Nations as Untermenschen, whatever the Germans officially say.

Concluding remark: some things should be forgiven, but not forgotten and if you made some damage, you should
pay for it. Saying "We are guilty" is not enough.

BTW.
Do you know, that Germnay in 2010 payed the last part of contribution for IWW (yes, firts) to France and Great Britan ? They will also pay to Namibia (Africa), for genocide from early XX century.... and most possibly, it is not over.

6dthjd1 - 3-2-2024 at 08:03

I remember reading an online book from the 19th century that said that preparation of up to 1.5 L of hydrogen cyanide compounds could be safely done!

They had no fume hood. I'll take outdoors for me if doing that prep for any amount

Bedlasky - 7-2-2024 at 11:40

Interesting history debate. There are still lots of grievences around WW2. I could throw up few opinions, but I don't want to start political debate in chemistry thread. However, there are two interesting notes I would like to address.

Firstly, Zyklon B was originally used as pesticide. Nazis misused it much later. It was hydrogen cyanide adsorbed on diatomaceous earth. There was also addition of eye irritant for safety (nitrochloroform or cyanogen chloride).

And secondly about masakre at Volhynia. There was Czech minority there, mainly in village Malín. Those who survived emigrated to Czechoslovakia and found village Český Malín near Sudet mountains. There is hill above village called Volyňské skály.

mr_bovinejony - 14-2-2024 at 21:03

I have prepared hcn the same way but have not managed to find a solution to the gel is forms when distilled into methanolic koh. I was under the impression that only water causes this problem and koh or naoh dissolved in an anhydrous alcohol will give a nice powder, have you run into this problem or have a solution?

6dthjd1 - 3-7-2024 at 14:17

Quote: Originally posted by Fery  
Great! Keep up good work. Also perfect experiment with the mosquito, so everyone could imagine how quickly the HCN causes its lethal effect. There was a forum in my country, but is already dead. 20 y ago a member with nick Cyano posted there his experiments with HCN distillation in his cellar and that all the rats there died (luckily he survived). Antidotes are inhaling amyl nitrite + O2, intravenous infusion of NaNO2 and Na2S2O3, vitamin B12 and many more.

edit: I found his post in an archive in my harddisk, I like to save interesting things as they can disappear in the future, the forum had a name PXD:

Quote:
od: cyano 01.07.2003, 02:44:32
Též jsem dělal kapalný kyanovodík-- ale podcenil jsem délku chladiče a teplotu chladicí kapaliny-- byla 17 st, je zde nutná teplota kolem nuly. Došlo k explozi aparatury--nic se nestalo, pokus jsem dělěl ve sklepě rod. domku-- ale vše je k něčemu dobré-- pochcípali potkani--našl jsem jich další den asi 5-7 , nevím , bylo to před lety, když jsem chodil na gympl.

here the translation into eng:
I also did liquid hydrogen cyanide - but I underestimated the length of the condenser and the temperature of the cooling liquid - it was 17 C, the required temperature is around zero. There was an explosion of the apparatus - nothing happened, I was doing the experiment in the basement of the family house - but everything is good for something - the rats perished - I found about 5-7 of them the next day, I don't know, it was years ago when I studied Gymnasium (Gymnazium in my country is analogy of high school or grammar school).


[Edited on 25-1-2024 by Fery]



Basement? without fume hood:o