Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Selling Chemicals online

Unless you have a license and a registered lab then there a not many legal places to sell hazmat materials.

I am a registered professional engineer in chemical and electrical. Is this in reference to the USA? I did extensive research of the FARs and never seen anything requiring the lab itself needing to be registered.

The regulations came into play with DOT and Hazmat.

akmetal - 13-12-2023 at 18:04

Quote: Originally posted by fx-991ex

Should probably make your own online website for the sale.
I hope you are in Canada, we really need more chemical suppliers

I will be a customer if thats the case.

I am in Alaska which is pretty close. Yes I am building my own website, I am using word press but its slow and tedious and I can either work on the lab or work on the web site so I might hire out the finish of the web site as I know its going to get tedious when I need to start adding pay pal links and the like.

Im not going to be that buisenss that has "call for a quote" and then it takes them days to get back.

My idea is to have QT graphics with levels/quantites remaining with like little level gauges and sell in increments of whatever bottles I can find and have the hazmat shipping quotes pre-determined to try to avoid a "TBD" for shipping, or at least be able to give a rough estimate +- so much.

However, being a new buisenss being able to utilitize sites like ebay to get started is very helpful. Once I have product stored and ready to sell my wife is going to start setting things up on the buisness end (insurance, tax ID, and getting a linkedin premium to start reaching out to companies) but the companies that are easy to find on linkedin will also be the same companies with inroads to the major supply houses and will be looking for cut rate pricing which im not really interested in, I started the lab to make money not give stuff away for free so finding the under served market will be tougher.

Just on here to see if there are sites like ebay that dont have draconian rules about listing hazmat that have at least somewhat of a household name.

Do you use ultra pure nitric or do you just need the much cheaper sub azeotropic nitric?

[Edited on 14-12-2023 by akmetal]

Raid - 14-12-2023 at 07:00

Unless you have a license and a registered lab then there a not many legal places to sell hazmat materials.

Yes, This is in reference to the USA. Many companies that would ship hazmat materials will ask for a lab certificate and registration along with confirmation of ownership of that lab in question.
Any reputable seller will also ask for some of those same documents to even be able to buy hazmat chemicals.
This means that your buyers will be limited to people who have a registered lab and sales could be harder to achieve.
You could probably get away with selling it without asking for lab certificates from the buyer but if any major government organizations find out you could be in some legal trouble.
Unless you have a registered lab, DOT/GV documents, and a lot of money or a proper company to sell if for you then selling or even making a profit may be hard.
I'm not exactly how expensive the DOT/GV documents are as I have never been in the situation that you are in but I'm guessing that they will cost a good chunk of money.
If you only sell HNO3 make sure you are on a scale large enough to make it profitable.
I wish you luck

[Edited on 14-12-2023 by Raid]

Texium - 14-12-2023 at 08:15

Unless you have a license and a registered lab then there a not many legal places to sell hazmat materials.

As a general rule, take what Raid says with a grain of salt. He often makes very confident sounding statements without actually knowing what he’s talking about. It sounds like you actually read up and understand the regulations. Raid is making assumptions based on big companies (Sigma et al) that refuse to sell to individuals. There isn’t a law against selling to individuals. They simply stand to profit the most from selling to companies and research institutions, and the minuscule profits they’d make from selling to individuals would not be worth the associated risk of those chemicals being misused, bringing them a PR headache and possibly lawsuits.

That being said, there is the real possibility that someone could sue you because a customer misused a chemical that you legally sold to them (since people can seemingly sue anyone for any reason in this country). Even though it is legal, you could still be accused of negligence. I am not a lawyer though, and I would suggest you consult one for advice on how to avoid that.

akmetal - 15-12-2023 at 01:21

Unless you have a license and a registered lab then there a not many legal places to sell hazmat materials.

Thats correct, my wife is going to help me find product liability insurance, form an LLC and perhaps have a lawyer on retainer for such things. This is also why I want to hand off the product to hazmat professionals to make sure its properly bottled and packaged and documented so it would be nearly impossible for anyone to claim negligance and for it to get beyond my layer sending the court all the documents from the hazmat people it will be labeled as frivolous. I mean every auto parts store would be bankrupt if that were the case as they sell all sorts of hazmat. I also did quite a bit of digging on ATF permits in case I want to make full-blown explosives and its not as hard as people think (if you have a family member with 40 acres of land in the middle of nowhere Alaska to build a magazine and then doing R&D to attempt to get a govt contract.

I would never sell sub azeotropic HNO3 as there is no money, the value is in 99% HNO3 which sells for between 2400-3200 per liter plus the shipping. This does limit my market because I learned well into the process that fertilizer and by extension ANFO only require sub azeotropic HNO3 to synthesize which is the cheap stuff and not worth selling as a small business, the ultra pure is used for high grade military explosvies (RDX, PETN, etc) and rocket fuels

I mean if there is a legitimate FAR that specifically requires the lab to be certified I would like to know but I could find no such FR, DOT does not apply until you start shipping it. I heard alot of people say there is but no one could find a federal regulation. Technically if your not transporting across state lines you probably dont even need a DOT permit unless the state has a regulation on it.

3200 for a liter of HNO3 is an extra pay check a month, once the process is semi-automated thats enough to dump into the next buisenss project or save for nicer real estate/buildings for future projects or expansion. The goal is to make enough money to start a free electron laser project and see if I can create anti matter in a controlled manner and sell it, we are not going to be able to build star ships until we harness anti-matter, its just that simple.

But yes if you drop this stuff in the mail box your going to jail lol.

Do you know if there is some online platform that allows you to list it for sale?

I am working on getting my disabled veterans status so if at the end of this maybe I can just sell ordinance to the military as an 8A small disable vet buisness. As scary as HNO3 is full blown ordinance kinda scares the hell out of me though so at that point it may be time to pivot lol.

It would suck because the lab is sweet and almost fully automated. You get an emotional attachment to things you build from scratch.

[Edited on 15-12-2023 by akmetal]

[Edited on 15-12-2023 by akmetal]

akmetal - 15-12-2023 at 01:40

Unless you have a license and a registered lab then there a not many legal places to sell hazmat materials.

[Edited on 14-12-2023 by Raid]

Let me know if you find the specific regulations, I searched a long time before I started building structures and building equipment and never found them, that doesn't mean they don't exist but I couldn't find them and as a pilot and engineer, I had to study FAR's, EPA, and looked into ATF and dabbled a little in FDA regs as well as DOT for my oil pipeline days.

Also, law and politics are touchy subjects so its probably better to just site the regulation because it's adversarial by its very nature. Most legitimate business don't want to break the law but if your just making stuff up because you think its true your going to damage your credibility because now your trying to passive aggressively dictate to people

I also stated above that im interested in making pure nitric not sub azeotropic ....

Sulaiman - 15-12-2023 at 02:24

Other than amateurs, who would buy from you, rather than directly from the big suppliers?
What can you offer that your suppliers do not?
Currently not the best business and political environment for such a start-up?

(I'd considered similar andt decided against such risks, but I wish you well if you proceed.)

dettoo456 - 15-12-2023 at 07:58

First, scrap the WFNA idea; most consumers of that (energetics companies) wont even buy it since they have their own HNO3 & NH3 plants. Second, the only way you’d likely procure it is in tank car qtys and shipping for that is a nightmare unless you have a HNO3 plant somewhere nearby (let alone a HNO3 that produces WFNA since most don’t bother concentrating above azeo). Third, common people (consumer demographic) likely won’t be willing to spend even <$200/L of WFNA since it’s easy to make on their own.

On the other hand, Nitric at 68% is currently available in 55gal qtys at around $14/gal (at least where I’m at on the west coast). And 1 55 gallon drum for around $770 is definitely considered accessible if you plan on starting a business. So the azeo concentration range is your best bet for at least breaking even if you sell at <$20/L. All you’d need is a peristaltic pump, some bottles and PTFE caps, packaging, and the acid ofc.

Stuff like Oxalyl chloride or NaBH4 at affordable prices could also be profitable - but those stray into clandestine consumer crowds which is a whole other headache.

Whatever you do, don’t look to make a massive profit. Modest margins at low volume are the best you’ll get. Look at a site like Dudadiesel, or some of the pyro suppliers - they are popular because they have fair prices and useful chems.

It is possible to slip into the market for this kind of stuff but you’ll need to be reasonable to the consumer and sell a useful reagent at a price that no other seller can beat. Good luck

Texium - 15-12-2023 at 12:12

I agree with dettoo. It's hard to imagine who would buy WFNA for $3000 per liter from you.

The goal is to make enough money to start a free electron laser project and see if I can create anti matter in a controlled manner and sell it, we are not going to be able to build star ships until we harness anti-matter, its just that simple.

Huh? I'm not following anymore. Just creating antimatter is already a far-fetched proposition for anyone without a budget the size of a small country's GDP. Storing it and selling it? That's firmly in the realm of science fiction with our current technology. I'm not sure how seriously to take you if you think this is something you could actually do.

akmetal - 15-12-2023 at 15:52

Cool I might just try selling my buisnes card on ebay (since its not the actual product) in order to drive buisness to my site.

When first starting you have use a well-known platform. My wife is also good at this and will be using linkedin premium to network.

Just to be clear I am not creating a charity, I'm not interested in selling low-value products that I have to produce gallons and gallons of, I am interested in creating products that certain consumers have a difficult time getting and then drive prices up.

If worse comes to worse and I cant sell the WFNA it will give me a source to produce high explosives with an ATF permit to do army R&D on emp grenades and then see if I can get something working to get a govt contract. Again im here to make $$$$$$ not try to toil making 55 gal drums of low-value product which is equally dangerous as the rest for no money.

I will check out Dudadiesel and see if it looks good. Thank you, I dont understand these comments, why would you make something thats cheap and already saturated and then recommend it? These posts are super confusing.

[Edited on 15-12-2023 by akmetal]

[Edited on 16-12-2023 by akmetal]

akmetal - 15-12-2023 at 15:54

I agree with dettoo. It's hard to imagine who would buy WFNA for $3000 per liter from you.

This is more of a life long persuit that will require I build enough wealth to shed my day job, it is for sure doable.

I mean if you think its impossible or dont want to do it then you wont. Dont put that on other people. The inventors of the side winder missle were 4 guys in a garage, the horton brothers were 2 guys in their parents house.

akmetal - 15-12-2023 at 16:08

50 ml up to almost $400

https://www.thomassci.com/Chemicals/Acids/_/Nitric-acid-fumi...

pantone159 - 15-12-2023 at 17:05

50 ml up to almost $400

https://www.thomassci.com/Chemicals/Acids/_/Nitric-acid-fumi...

The information on that linked page seems kind of inconsistent.
The title does say 'Nitric acid, fuming, 98%' but the product details say:
Formula: C5H9BrZn
Formula weight: 214.41
CAS Number: 171860-68-7
UN Number: UN3399
which are all consistent with cyclopentyl zinc bromide. So I would not assume that is actually a price for nitric acid.

Jenks - 15-12-2023 at 17:06

I see labx.com still exists and has an auction section. Maybe try there.

Texium - 15-12-2023 at 17:08

50 ml up to almost $400

https://www.thomassci.com/Chemicals/Acids/_/Nitric-acid-fumi...

That doesn’t mean shit. Companies that buy from big vendors like Sigma, Thermo, Thomas, VWR, etc are going to keep buying from them. Often they’ll have contracts that make the prices significantly better than what you see on their sites too.

Moreover, prices of reagents don’t necessarily reflect demand. I’ve made plenty of compounds that companies sell for hundreds of dollars per gram. Doesn’t mean that I should start a business selling them at half the price, because they’re niche things that nobody wants to buy. I might be one of a handful of people in the world who need those specific compounds. The big companies can make money because they sell such a huge range of reagents and building blocks that inevitably people will want something that they sell . Specializing in one niche reagent is not a path to profit. And despite its popularity with amateur energetics enthusiasts, WFNA is actually a pretty niche reagent for lab-scale chemistry. You perceive it being in high demand due to its high price… but in reality, its high price is due to the expenses incurred in preparing and handling it on the relatively small scale that it’s needed. Conversely, when an expensive chemical becomes more in-demand, its price often goes DOWN due to economies of scale.

akmetal - 15-12-2023 at 17:31

50 ml up to almost $400

https://www.thomassci.com/Chemicals/Acids/_/Nitric-acid-fumi...

If that the case I will use the reagent to start another business trying to see if I can build emp grenades and try to secure a govt contract. At the end of the day im not interested in making peanuts.

Also with all of the conflicts going on world wide they are depleting alot of munitions so this will become a key chemical if it isent already.

This isent like making azeobezeobutelronitrile lol.

Also is it possible to make WFNA at high concentrations at scale? From what I read the reactions become problematic the larger you make the distillation apparatus due to heating issues. The molecular sieve is also difficult to acquire and has to be frequently regenerated with hot dry air or the water baked out.

Im not here to argue with you man, im just looking for market places I can list it and let the market decide if I have to pivot or not.

[Edited on 16-12-2023 by akmetal]

[Edited on 16-12-2023 by akmetal]

dettoo456 - 15-12-2023 at 19:45

Don’t take this the wrong way; do some amateur chemistry or just chemistry in general before you try to start a chemical business.

We cannot help you (regardless if you even want some anon amateurs’ help) if you don’t know what you are talking about.

Texium - 15-12-2023 at 20:50

Im not here to argue with you man, im just looking for market places I can list it and let the market decide if I have to pivot or not.

Not trying to argue with you either. I’m just sharing my perspective as someone who has purchased chemicals for my home lab as well as for an institutional research lab. You can take it or leave it, I don’t care either way.

As far as a platform to sell on, I think fx-991ex had the best suggestion with making your own site.

akmetal - 16-12-2023 at 10:59

Im not here to argue with you man, im just looking for market places I can list it and let the market decide if I have to pivot or not.

I am building my own site but when you first start up you have to have a way to drive buisness /traffic to your site. I found a couple just searching online, got lucky with my google key words this last round

Raid - 16-12-2023 at 17:57

Unless you have a license and a registered lab then there a not many legal places to sell hazmat materials.

Believe it or not Texium I actually did some research on this subject and that was some of the info I found by just looking and google and some other government websites. I get what your saying about how I sometimes don't know what I'm talking about but I generally try to do at least a bit of research before posting something. I'm still new to chemistry so bear with me.
Also as a small side note your website is still vulnerable to XSS and I've told you guys before but no one seems to care.

dettoo456 - 16-12-2023 at 19:32

You are right about shipping hazmat stuff but the issues mainly relate to private shippers like UPS, FedEx, DHL, etc. The only federal laws regarding shipping hazardous (but not illegal) chemicals are enforced by the DOT, but they’ll come down on you HARD if you accidentally send stuff outside of the proper channels. To do hazmat shipping i think you just need to register with the courier companies and they’ll sort out the rest. But yea, something like WFNA accidentally sent on an airliner could put you in prison.

akmetal - 17-12-2023 at 02:39