Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Beginner question about AN

MFG_BOP - 1-12-2023 at 18:06

Hi guys. I am new here. Been lurking around for some time but decided to become a member.
I'm just a beginner. What I usually do is nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin for ammo reloading. Where I live, with an upcoming communism, it is being quite hard to obtain the components for ammo. I swage my own bullets too. Yes, i do my smokeless powder.
For the chems, I mostly use conc. sulfuric acid an potassium nitrate, which are easy to obtain here.
A few days ago, I came across a fertilizer (reaaallly cheap) which contains ammonium nitrate, ammonium sulfate and calcium carbonate.
Question is: is there a way to separate them? I am just interested in the AN.
I really looked up on the net and in here, but I got no answers for this specific composition.
Any input is welcome.
Regards
MFG

fx-991ex - 1-12-2023 at 18:10

this fertilizer are not ammonium sulfate and calcium carbonate, that would precipitate calcium sulfate and you could decompose the ammonium carbonate by boiling leaving behind the ammonium nitrate..

B(a)P - 1-12-2023 at 23:45

I would start by drying a small sample then adding sulfuric acid to it and seeing how much nitric acid I could distil over.

unionised - 2-12-2023 at 03:25

I'm worried about providing advice about explosives to anyone who thinks that communism is happening (presumably in the USA) where they don't even have a Left wing political party.
But, I'm also always bothered by the idea of distilling HNO3 directly from a mix of ammonium nitrate and sulphuric acid.
I know it works and people do it, but you are still cooking up an oxidant and a fuel. You are potentially at the mercy of any impurities.

To me it always made sense to add an alkali- like NaOH- to displace the ammonia (and get sodium nitrate) and then treat that with the acid.

Rainwater - 2-12-2023 at 06:50

I second unionised here.
One of the thing that made me fall in love with chemistry is this exact experiment.
Bad way to make nitric acid, good way to detonate test tubes.

I don't believe the OP's origin to be the states, because ammo supplies are very abundant when
purchased through legitimate means. If you try to purchase enough to do evil, your guaranteed a visit
from the authorities.

Having just enough knowledge to know whats beyond by ability, i can say for certain that making your
own propellant for a firearms, is well above amateur level chemistry.
Once you make your propellant, you have to test its properties very precisely before you even think
about loading a round.

It can, and is done daily in the home setting, but with great care, experience, and diligence.
Please study for a long time before you attempt this.
Learn what properties you want, how to measure them and how to do it safely.

MFG_BOP - 2-12-2023 at 11:07

I was probably not very clear in my question. I just want to get a ready available fertilizer, containing ammonium nitrate, ammonium sulfate and calcium carbonate in pellets (that's what the tag says), separate them out to just get the AN. Throw the other two components on my garden. That's all I want.

Going a bit further, for the smokeless powder I make (been making it for a couple of years), I use sulfuric acid and potassium nitrate. I just want to use AN instead of PN.

I don't live in the USA, but in a country that, yes, communism is knocking on the door. I have been studying communism for a long time so I am sure a few people can discuss that "mental disease" with me.

I also have a place, in the middle of nowhere where I do my concoction stuff and my reloading, so if anyone would get killed, in case of an accident, it would be me and some ants around. Thanks for being concerned!

Again, guys, simple question: is there a way to separate these 3 components out of the fertilizer and just get ammonium nitrate?

Thanks again!

[Edited on 2-12-2023 by MFG_BOP]

Alkoholvergiftung - 2-12-2023 at 11:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiiR5Y0yO0A&t=313s
Ammoniumnitrate /Ammoniumsulfate seperation.

EF2000 - 2-12-2023 at 11:48

Calcium carbonate is insoluble in water, can be separated by filtering a solution of fertiliser.
Ammonium sulfate is harder to separate, but if you can get calcium nitrate (also fertiliser), you can make more AN and calcium sulfate.

Also, note that smokeless powder is actually communist subversive plot, intended to taint precious bodily fluids of true patriots. One of the first smokeless propellants was invented by Russian chemist, Dmitry Mendeleev. Every Russian = Bolshevik communist, as everybody knows. Stay patriotic, don't become their comrade, use gunpowder!
And yes, no need for history books, my history teacher is Brigadier General Jack D. Ripper.

[Edited on 3-12-2023 by EF2000]

Rainwater - 2-12-2023 at 13:43

Solubility in water for each from wiki
NH4NO3
118 g/100 ml (0 °C)
1024 g/100 ml (100 °C)

(NH4)2SO4
70.6 g per 100 g water (0 °C)
103.8 g per 100 g water (100 °C)

Recrystallization with water should be considered
This may help
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=15...



MFG_BOP - 2-12-2023 at 14:30

great, guys. thanks for that!

Alkoholvergiftung, thanks man! I've watched that video on Youtube. Being just a beginner, I didn't know if my fertilizer would work this way having different ingredients. Probably I can use the same procedure, innit?!

EF2000, thanks! Yes, separation is a start by what I've read. Or... I am completely wrong?! Cool, comrade. I'd recommend you some more reading about history in general tho. ;)

Rainwater, tks for the link!

Sulaiman - 3-12-2023 at 11:26

Have you inspected the fertiliser mixture?

I ask because I took some of my garden fertiliser to experiment with,
It was made of three different types of small prills,
that could be separated mechanically by hand.
Tedious but easy.

DraconicAcid - 3-12-2023 at 11:45

Quote: Originally posted by MFG_BOP  

EF2000, thanks! Cool, comrade. I'd recommend you some more reading about history in general tho. ;)


Are you arguing with the teachings of General Jack T. Ripper?

PS- stay away from fluoride.

MFG_BOP - 3-12-2023 at 12:04

Again, guys, thanks! I just came across a bag of this AN fertilizer the other near where I live browsing around other stuff, but I didn't buy it, so I don't know the physical look of it.

As the old saying goes "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", I think I will keep using the good old PN for my smokeless powder and forget about the AN.

Cheers

MFG

Romix - 5-12-2023 at 04:38

Quote: Originally posted by MFG_BOP  
Hi guys. I am new here. Been lurking around for some time but decided to become a member.
I'm just a beginner. What I usually do is nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin for ammo reloading. Where I live, with an upcoming communism, it is being quite hard to obtain the components for ammo. I swage my own bullets too. Yes, i do my smokeless powder.
For the chems, I mostly use conc. sulfuric acid an potassium nitrate, which are easy to obtain here.
A few days ago, I came across a fertilizer (reaaallly cheap) which contains ammonium nitrate, ammonium sulfate and calcium carbonate.
Question is: is there a way to separate them? I am just interested in the AN.
I really looked up on the net and in here, but I got no answers for this specific composition.
Any input is welcome.
Regards
MFG

Hello Dear MFG_BOP.
You mentioned H2SO4 and KNO3 in your first comment.
Writing to ask you if I could use weak H2SO4 or its needs to be concentrated for HNO3 to be produced.
Couple months ago ordered 5KG of KNO3 of the internet, and police raided my house, my excuse was that I'll use it to fertilize my plants, why so many? To last a life time and cops not raiding my house every other order.
Cops clearly understood that I've bought it not only for my plants but also for Gold Recovery.
Ok, they let me keep it after searching my room, they found loaded crossbow in my room with a bolt with broadhead on it behind it. Took it off me, less then 3 months later I've received a letter to collect my crossbow from police station in the next 28 days. Got it back, I've said that I have it for home defense, shooting burglars if they break in. So not sure if you can shoot burglars if they break in in your house in UK and not get punished, police officer raiding my house told me that it's against the law and you can get punished doing so. This put me off from applying for firearms, wanted semi-auto rifle shooting 22LR with picatinny rail on it, to mount my thermal scope. First to start with some cheap 12 gauge shotgun, already bought bullet molds, lots of lead shot to reload cartridges and brushes used by the army to clean the gun barrel. Could you please tell us more about how you are making smokeless gun powder, it's very interesting mate!


[Edited on 5-12-2023 by Romix]

Romix - 5-12-2023 at 04:49

Making weak Sulphuric acid by electrolysis of CuSO4 until solution becomes colorless.
Then when I'll have like 5 liters of it, evaporate out all the water out of acid in my 5L QuickFit reactor.
After react concentrated H2SO4 with KNO3 and distill off HNO3.
What you guys think is this a working method? If Nitrate anion will displace Sulphate in the weak acid, it could save me a lot of time and also less product will escape in to the atmosphere.

[Edited on 5-12-2023 by Romix]

Alkoholvergiftung - 5-12-2023 at 06:08

Dont you have an glassware destillation apperatus with watercooling? and an electric heating mantel so you can long time destill without loses of HNO3.
The sulfte methode may work. To save H2SO4 i use CaNO3 and Oxalic acid after filtering i destill it to 58%. You can go higher but the yield is pretty poor never reached the acetrop with this methode.

[Edited on 5-12-2023 by Alkoholvergiftung]

Romix - 5-12-2023 at 06:15

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/I3xP6hsaI8o
Is this good enough??
Was making moonshine in a video.
Just need to swap joint out of reactor, this one be more suitable for HNO3 distillation and also for concentrating H2SO4.



[Edited on 5-12-2023 by Romix]

321501888_3270307586565206_4910582975533057046_n.jpg - 183kB

Romix - 5-12-2023 at 06:25

I know it works with Alkali metal Nitrates, what if I'll use Copper Nitrate instead. Will anions displace?
Saves tons of time, if it would work, I could just add H2SO4 to Cu(NO3)2, distill off HNO3, electrolyze CuSO4 that's left, and do it all over and over again, batch after batch.

Romix - 5-12-2023 at 06:48

Also I'm diluting my nitric by a lot when oxidizing base metals with it.
Stronger acid, more NO2 is produced and less metal gets oxidized.
Diluted nitric produces hardly any NO2!!!


[Edited on 5-12-2023 by Romix]

Romix - 5-12-2023 at 09:25

Quote: Originally posted by Romix  
I know it works with Alkali metal Nitrates, what if I'll use Copper Nitrate instead. Will anions displace?
Saves tons of time, if it would work, I could just add H2SO4 to Cu(NO3)2, distill off HNO3, electrolyze CuSO4 that's left, and do it all over and over again, batch after batch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8uQWibpRYk
Here's a video of the process, but I'm not trusting the guy recording it, previously tried couple of reactions of Copper chemistry recommended by him and neither of them worked in real life.

[Edited on 5-12-2023 by Romix]

Romix - 5-12-2023 at 09:42

To do an electrolysis I have a piece of Platinum for the Anode that I can cut in to a longer piece, Platinum in this package sometimes showing up on Ebay, people buying it almost for its spot price. Tested it with Platinum testing drops, most other metals were dissolving in it coloring the drop black, but this piece of Platinum didn't, acid drop evaporated of it leaving metal unreacted, left it for few days. Also the density of it is about right.

Will it bend where I've drawn the red lines and not brake??



[Edited on 5-12-2023 by Romix]

368400383_1000815107613594_4500185998251859079_n.jpg.9adce50916c1dfbd1752b3103881e454.jpg - 125kB368400383_1000815107613594_4500185998251859079_n.jpg - 66kB

Romix - 5-12-2023 at 17:45

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqzrTxshOXM
Found another good video by NurdRage, believing him NaHSO4 when reacted with NaNO3 produces Nitric acid in one reaction.
If I'll use Potassium Nitrate instead, will it work?
25KG bag of NaHSO4 cost 38£ with delivery. This method produces nitric faster then long time consuming electrolysis of CuSO4.

Alkoholvergiftung - 6-12-2023 at 00:04

MnCl2 and NaNO3 works very well too reaction at 150C.
Potassiumnitrate and NaHSO4 will work too.

[Edited on 6-12-2023 by Alkoholvergiftung]

[Edited on 6-12-2023 by Alkoholvergiftung]