Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Detonating potassium chlorate explosive mixture.

Detonating potassium chlorate explosive mixture.

Ankit1612 - 23-1-2023 at 11:31

Can I detonate potassium chlorate, AL powder, sulphur mixture?

Sir_Gawain - 23-1-2023 at 11:47

Yes. Try shaking or stirring it.

B(a)P - 23-1-2023 at 11:59

Yes, though mixing chlorate and sulfur is a bad idea. I would not recommend pursuing this mixture as a potential energetic material.
I am not a mod, but I would think asking, 'does this mixture detonate' is probably not in keeping with what this forum is about and will be unlikely to get you much of a responce.
There is a huge amount of information freely available on chlorates and energetic mixtures including chlorates, including plenty on this forum. Maybe start by reading up on some potential options then ask some more informed questions. Best of luck with it!

woelen - 23-1-2023 at 12:57

I certainly would not make more than a few tens of mg of a mix of KClO3, S and Al. Such mixes are very sensitive to friction and may ignite, just while mixing the chemicals. Too many people lost fingers (or more) by carelessly playing around with chlorates. Adding metals to the mix makes things even worse, because, when the mix sets off and metal powder is in the mix, then the reaction will be MUCH hotter and much more violent, than with just sulfur and KClO3. And even the latter simple mix already is so violent! Also, do not store mixes of KClO3, which also contain sulfur! On storage, especially, when a slight amount of humidity and air can enter the mix, the mix can become even more sensitive, due to formation of sulfur-containing acidic compounds, which can be formed on aerial oxidation of sulfur under somewhat humid conditions.

Chlorate

MadHatter - 23-1-2023 at 13:01

B(a)P and woelen are correct. Chlorates are notoriously reactive with many things
but especially sulfur and phosphorus. If you can obtain it use perchlorates instead.
Fireworks industries no longer use chlorates except in things like poppers and snap
caps for that very reason. Perchlorates are much safer to work with.

[Edited on 2023/1/23 by MadHatter]

ManyInterests - 23-1-2023 at 13:10

The use of chlorates in explosives and energetics use is quite well documented. But first... DO NOT MIX SULFUR AND CHLORATES! This isn't a joke. They will blow up in your face.

Adding aluminum powder to chlorates will act as a powerful oxidizer/fuel combo. From what I've read on cheddites, adding a bit (around 5% of the total volume I believe) to a 90%/10% ratio of chlorates and petroleum jelly will increase its power, or according to some other member here, a 2/3 chlorate to 1/3 aluminum mixture will also work.

You'll need at least a No. 8 detonator or equivalent to make it go off if you're looking for a detonation.

But whatever you do, please do not mix sulfur/sulphur with chlorates, it could well be the last thing you do.

Sir_Gawain - 23-1-2023 at 13:22

Actually, it's even worse than that. Sulfur can be acidic enough to spontaneously detonate the mixture. Also, I believe this mixture is much more powerful than Armstrong's mixture. A very small amount can shatter a concrete block that is tipped over onto it.

ManyInterests - 23-1-2023 at 13:28

Quote: Originally posted by Sir_Gawain

Actually, it's even worse than that. Sulfur can be acidic enough to spontaneously detonate the mixture. Also, I believe this mixture is much more powerful than Armstrong's mixture. A very small amount can shatter a concrete block that is tipped over onto it.

Yes, thank you. Safety matches (that use both sulfur and chlorates) have a glue binder that holds them apart. This is why ground up matches don't go off. But outside of that it is a really bad idea.

Bert - 23-1-2023 at 16:26

Potassium chlorate is mostly reserved these days for uses where one WANTS high sensitivity to impact or friction- Percussion primers, friction igniters, matches and similar flame initiating devices.

One other fairly large scale use of Potassium chlorate in Pyrotechnics is the fuel/oxidizer/coolling diluants mixture used to vaporize colored dyes in smoke devices WITHOUT BURNING THEM UP. It suits THAT use because it can sustain a burn at rather low temperatures when used with low temperature fuels such as lactose.

A LOT of 19th century "patent explosives" for blasting/mining were tried with chlorate mixtures- They had too many drawbacks for continuing commercial use, the cheddites came closest.

Some have used potassium chlorate instead of perchlorate in whistle mixes with fuels like sodium benzoate or salycilate- These DO whistle. And they also transition to a true detonation far too easily if shocked. The old fashioned whistle mixes with gallic acid and Potassium chlorate were quite sensitive too, I advise against playing with ALL of the chlorate oxidized whistle mixes.

At least one person on this forum had MELTED whistle fixes such as these and claimed the oxidizer would DISSOLVE in the melted fuel, producing a dense(ish) solid high explosive mixture when allowed to solidify after. I never had the courage to try that process and I reccomend you don't either.

The old flash cracker powder mixtures with aluminum, sulfur and chlorate killed a LOT of factory workers in the late 1800s to early 1900s AND STILL DO in places people occasionally try to use them commercially (India, Phillipines, some Asian countries).

The "dark report" mixtures such as chlorate + antimony sulfide or powdered have a limited use for things such as breaking a charcoal crossette comet without a bright distracting flash, a person who taught me pyrotechnics early on did (and does) make them this way. He also carries a pocket watch instead of wearing a wrist watch and enjoys fine double barrel shotguns rather than auto loaders or pumps-

I've made historical colored star mixes with chlorate in small quantities out of curiosity. They did work as advertised, some were even quite nicely colored, virtually all of them were far too shock and/or friction sensitive for me to go further.

[Edited on 1-24-2023 by Bert]

Herr Haber - 23-1-2023 at 22:35

Quote: Originally posted by Sir_Gawain

It's only the old flash powder that China used for many years but is now banned. It's far from being as dangerous as Armstrong's mixture.

Potassium chlorate can be mixed with a lot of much safer fuels and get a full-ish detonation. Vaseline is one of them.
Look up Cheddite and Sprengel explosives.

[Edited on 24-1-2023 by Herr Haber]

Ankit1612 - 24-1-2023 at 01:25

All I want to know is, can I detonate potassium chlorate flash powder with PETN booster. And if yes, then how powerful explosion it will be?

[Edited on 24-1-2023 by Ankit1612]

Alkoholvergiftung - 24-1-2023 at 02:14

Pyrodialyt is an good example of an Chlorate explosive. 85% potassiumchlorate 15% resin (natural). Fine powdered (seperate) an mixed in rotating drums moistet with alcohol (moist not doughy consistenc). It was an save explosive only with an blastingcap to detonate. negative was it was only 1,9 times stronger than blackpowder.

[Edited on 24-1-2023 by Alkoholvergiftung]

Raid - 24-1-2023 at 07:59

You will have to sensitize the Chlorate comp before use, the most common way is to use Sulfur. I have done this myself without any issues and adding Sulfur does not seem to make it super sensitive or anything just make sure to keep the product VERY dry to avoid H2SO4 building up. that could cause extreme sensitivity and even spontaneous detonation.

Herr Haber - 24-1-2023 at 10:30

Quote: Originally posted by Ankit1612

All I want to know is, can I detonate potassium chlorate flash powder with PETN booster. And if yes, then how powerful explosion it will be?

[Edited on 24-1-2023 by Ankit1612]

Sure you can !
But you really shouldnt. Or if you do, use way less Al and maybe no S than in a normal flash composition.
You should go for a safer fuel especially since I imagine the main charge will not be small.
Look at Rack a Rock composition and how it was used during NY construction.
Consider chlorate and vaseline. Keep it simple & keep your limbs attached.
Just gently heat vaseline then incorporate the chlorate while mixing.
Those compositions are not easy to set off so a minimum of confinement is needed (that's why a hole in a rock is perfect) but if you have a good initiator such as PETN then dont bother doing something super exotic that is more dangerous than necessary.

@Pinkboii: I'm suggesting the exact opposite. He doesnt need to sensitize a composition. Chlorates decompose very easily already and even much harder to detonate perchlorate compositons were used in WW1 grenades / mortar rounds with what I'd call inadequate initiation.

[Edited on 24-1-2023 by Herr Haber]

Sir_Gawain - 24-1-2023 at 10:50

Quote: Originally posted by Ankit1612

All I want to know is, can I detonate potassium chlorate flash powder with PETN booster. And if yes, then how powerful explosion it will be?

[Edited on 24-1-2023 by Ankit1612]

Yes, but it's not a safe composition. Try Cheddite O, a 90/10 mixture of chlorate and vaseline or mineral oil. I detonated 25g with a 1g ETN blasting cap and it completely severed a 6 inch tree. The chlorate has to be very finely powdered and the cheddite kneaded thoroughly. It's far less sensitive than any chorate/sulfur mix.

Raid - 24-1-2023 at 11:05

@Herr Harbor, Well... Sure its better not to use and sulfur compounds to sensitize this but from personal experience, I have had no success detonating this without adding sulfur. All its really comes down to is if you care about your personal safety or not. As a side note if he did use sulfur to sensitize the flash powder i would recommend storing it in a pill bottle or something that is airtight and plastic. DONT use anything made or any metal or glass due to the chance of deflagration/detonation and the fragmentation that would have a good change at damaging something or killing you.

Or better yet go invest in some Ammonium Nitrate as it has lots of different comps and you can do so much with it and its way safer and cheaper, the 2 best things!
If you do consider this I recommend ANSU or ANFO mostly because its cheap yet fun

I go with ANSU because I don't have access to 2# fuel oil. The only issues with ANSU is that its very hygroscopic and its a bit hard to detonate. but since you said you had a PETN detcap that shouldn't be much of a problem for you.

[Edited on 24-1-2023 by PINKBOII]

Ankit1612 - 24-1-2023 at 12:22

I tried to make ammonium nitrate, with conc. nitric acid and 30% liquid ammonia. But the yeild was too low!

Then I made urea nitrate with conc. nitric acid and urea fertilizer.
and tested some UN explosive charges.
https://youtu.be/Q0wLWeyFRgw

Now I want to try same thing, but with a different oxidizer i.e., potassium chlorate.

Rainwater - 24-1-2023 at 17:58

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P

Yes, though mixing chlorate and sulfur is a bad idea.

So a plastic bottle tied to a string tossed over a tree branch
1g KClO₃ in the bottom
1g garden sulfur on the side.
1g aluminum powder on the side
Got far away, raised the bottle..... nothing
Shake the bottle ...... nothing.
Drop the bottle to the ground .... nothing.
Repeatedly Shake and drop ..... feeling stupid
What now!!!
I know,
Im gonna hit it with a stick.
4 of 5 stars,
Will do again

[Edited on 25-1-2023 by Rainwater]

B(a)P - 24-1-2023 at 19:23

Quote: Originally posted by Ankit1612

I tried to make ammonium nitrate, with conc. nitric acid and 30% liquid ammonia. But the yeild was too low!

Then I made urea nitrate with conc. nitric acid and urea fertilizer.
and tested some UN explosive charges.
https://youtu.be/Q0wLWeyFRgw

Now I want to try same thing, but with a different oxidizer i.e., potassium chlorate.

Consider having your spectators a little further away, both you and them appear to be well in range of a chunk of flying concrete. If you are going to be using lit fuse, make sure you have enough so that you have time to calmly walk to a safe space and trip over on the way.

Ankit1612 - 24-1-2023 at 19:55

Don't worry for fuse..
That is my homemade fuse, it burns for at least 15 sec.
Many times I've tested and calculated it's delay time.

MineMan - 24-1-2023 at 20:16

When I was kids a friend of mine would mix up 20 grams or so for sensitive mixtures. I wouldn’t do it. It scares me what we use to do with it. Pretty lucky

Ankit1612 - 24-1-2023 at 20:57

what about urea nitrate-PETN mixture??

B(a)P - 24-1-2023 at 21:15

On my list of things to try with chlorate is copper II chlorate complexes containing tetrazole derivatives.

Raid - 25-1-2023 at 11:31

i think ill start making tetrazoles to

Herr Haber - 25-1-2023 at 16:41

Has Google stopped working ?

Raid - 27-1-2023 at 06:06

yeah prob

Bert - 30-1-2023 at 11:37

Back when I started trying to learn pyrotechnics, I made small quantities of various chlorate compositions- AND HIT THEM, STEEL ON STEEL to get a feel for just HOW sensitive they were. Which was mostly QUITE a bit more sensitive than I cared for, especially if stars were primed with black powder or any chlorate mixtures contained a sulfide, such as antimony sulfide (torpedo mix) or, god forbid, Arsenic sulfide (red hand remover mix)

Later, I did the same with perchlorate (and other) compositions. And found that perchlorate comps, if including metal fuels, sulfer or sulfides were ALSO fairly easy to set off, though mostly at the high end of the range I'd experienced with the chlorate compositions. Nitrate mixes were generally lower impact yet, then there were a few surprises such as crackle mixtures with heavy metal oxides being a lot more sensitive than expected- And some strobe compositions with sulfate oxidizers being quite snappy too

If you MUST reinvent this wheel, do it to learn something rather than be kewlish and just make big bangs. Fabricate a drop tester perhaps, take and report some impact data. Get some different surface materials and fab up a friction shoe tester, get (relative) friction sensitivity data.

I don't like to detritus threads for lack of scientific merit... So show something is being researched/learned? Search rather than ask for spoon feeding? Do something beyond discussion of making "kewlbomz"?

[Edited on 1-30-2023 by Bert]

Bert - 30-1-2023 at 17:47

Quote: Originally posted by PINKBOII

i think ill start making tetrazoles to

You need to practice walking for a while longer before you try to run, let alone fly. And learn to think carefully about what you are doing and how to deal with ALL the possible consequences.

Having seen what Microtek and a few others got up to before they could have legally bought a drink or a pack of smokes in USA, I am not saying it's impossible.

But I also recall a kid who called himself fone, before he made a large batch of explosives and accidentally killed himself.

And Myfanwy, another kid about your present age who made phosgene without a fume hood or sufficient protective gear. It took him about a week of very bad days to die.

Raid - 1-2-2023 at 07:12

yeah, I try to take the most precautions and I NEVER work with any toxic gasses inside, only outside with a gas mask because I hate toxic gasses

I also don't make enough explosives to kill myself

I have everything to make tetrazoles except for guanidine nitrate. I probably give it a go in a year or two when I get some guanidine nitrate.

I will take everything you said to heart