Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Non - Nitrated booster explosives?

TheShedChemist - 10-11-2022 at 11:30

Hi,
I recently made some ammonium nitrate to make ammonal and ANFO, but i couldn't get the ammonal to detonate (so there was no point trying ANFO). My 'detonator' was a covid test vial with around 1-2g of magnesium and potassium persulphate flash powder. I know this isn't close to ideal, but i read on an earlier thread that plastic vials can work as well as metal ones for detonators... i dont think that is the issue though.

This is why im here; i need a booster for the flash powder, BUT, i live in the UK (where posession of up to 100g of explosive is legal), but many precursors are not, such as >3% HNO3 or >10% H2SO4, same with sodium and potassium chlorate, phenols etc.

So what im looking for is a stable booster (this rules out TATP and MEKP. I like my fingers as they are). I was thinking tetraamine copper nitrate and some Al powder? Other than that, im lost and need suggestions please.
Thanks

[Edited on 10-11-2022 by TheShedChemist]

[Edited on 10-11-2022 by TheShedChemist]

Hey Buddy - 10-11-2022 at 12:14

Welcome to science madness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV9Pv3Jdtak

ManyInterests - 10-11-2022 at 20:58

One thing I learned quite recently is that plastic detonator bodies are not ideal. I made quite a few using Bic round stick pens as bodies, and despite the formidable filling (1 gram of melt-cast ETN + 0.3 grams of hand pressed ETN on top and 0.25g of NHN) they didn't even pop on their own with any impressive report, and they couldn't detonate ammonium picrate (if what I had even WAS ammonium picrate).

For a non-nitrated compound, check out Hey Buddy's link. CHP is the only thing I can think of. I made some, but I have yet to use it in any caps as hand-pressed CHP will not reach the desired densities needed to detonate properly.

TheShedChemist - 11-11-2022 at 01:32

CHP looks great and the procedure doesn’t look too difficult either, but I’m just wondering how I could source ammonium perchlorate… potassium perchlorate is illegal here as is sodium perchlorate (both at concentrations above 40%)… any other ideas?

Edit: I didn’t make the issue with the perchlorate very clear: what I mean is I would have to buy, or make from say ammonium chloride (I’m not sure that would even work). I couldn’t use a double displacement reaction with potassium or sodium perchlorate


[Edited on 11-11-2022 by TheShedChemist]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 12-11-2022 at 04:40

TheShedChemist: Is possible increase concentration 3% HNO3 simply boiling on 20% . After is possible make SA-DS. (silver powder, HNO3, acetylene)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUojIrx00k8
SA-DS (pressed in metal cavity 200 - 300mg) can easy detonate booster from TACN (from copper wire, ammonia water, NH4NO3) 20g TACN +2g Al powder is power booster. (ideal density 1,25g/cc) Thsi booster can detonate any ANFO.
TACN prepare: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSbU1DDKivg

TheShedChemist - 12-11-2022 at 14:37

Without a licence, possession of >3% HNO3 is illegal in the UK... Would it be possible to make silver nitrate with 3% HNO3 and then boil the solution down to achieve a higher concentration, or even just use the low conc silver nitrate solution and bubble the acetylene through that to precipitate the silver acetylide.

The procedure for the TACN you did looked amazingly simple compared to others. How stable is it to store?

As for the detonator, do you mean use the the SA-DS to initiate the TACN Al mix which will provide the force required to detonate the ammonal/ANFO?
so SA-DS --> TACN + Al --> Ammonal/ANFO

Great channel BTW

I'm sorry if I'm asking too many questions, I've never ventured in to the world of 'proper' explosives before... I've just been using flash powders to make bangs and flashes for the past 2/3 years and ive never actually made a detonating explosive (I tried TATP once, but got a visit from the police and they explained why that was so dangerous etc.)

MineMan - 12-11-2022 at 16:41

Quote: Originally posted by TheShedChemist  
Without a licence, possession of >3% HNO3 is illegal in the UK... Would it be possible to make silver nitrate with 3% HNO3 and then boil the solution down to achieve a higher concentration, or even just use the low conc silver nitrate solution and bubble the acetylene through that to precipitate the silver acetylide.

The procedure for the TACN you did looked amazingly simple compared to others. How stable is it to store?

As for the detonator, do you mean use the the SA-DS to initiate the TACN Al mix which will provide the force required to detonate the ammonal/ANFO?
so SA-DS --> TACN + Al --> Ammonal/ANFO

Great channel BTW

I'm sorry if I'm asking too many questions, I've never ventured in to the world of 'proper' explosives before... I've just been using flash powders to make bangs and flashes for the past 2/3 years and ive never actually made a detonating explosive (I tried TATP once, but got a visit from the police and they explained why that was so dangerous etc.)


Re read his comment. That’s what he said.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 13-11-2022 at 00:51

Only once did you produce ..TATP .?...and then they visited you?
What is this nonsense? That you would have drawn so much attention to yourself during the first synthesis? It looks like you .TATP...synthesized on the stone edge of the fountain in Trafalgar Square on Friday afternoon.

TheShedChemist - 13-11-2022 at 03:15

The reason the police visited me was because I bought all 3 of the precursors from the same company on the same order, thinking nothing of it (doing this was legal anyway as an individual is allowed to possess 100g of explosives). The company reported the suspicous order to the police who came to investigate (as they probably should). After all, i did order about 5 litres of 10% H2O2 to try and make a H2O2 powered thermic lance later on. (12% is the maximum concentration legal to possess without a licence).

BlackPowderBoy - 13-11-2022 at 04:48

You could try sensitizing the ammonal. Maybe try experimenting with a magnesium/ammonal mix if you haven't tried yet? That's my only guess... Instead of trying to make the detonator more powerful, you can try making the ammonal easier to set off. Other than that, tetraamine copper nitrate and some Al couldn't hurt to experiment with. At least report back to us and let us know if it works. ;)


[Edited on 13-11-2022 by BlackPowderBoy]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 13-11-2022 at 07:02

Thanks for explain about H2O2. BlackPowderBoy has truth. TACN is stabile during a years, no hygroscopic (Against ANFO) and his power is enough for a lot attepmts. VoD about 3.500 - 3.600 m/s. From 100g NH4NO3 is yield 110 - 120g dry TACN. Next thing, 200g ANFO (necessary for full quality explo) is huge blow. Is hear 5 km. Against 10 - 20g TACN, (is hear 1km) which can broken for example wooden stick of diameter 30 - 40 mm. 10g TACN is reliable ammount for brokening the broom handle. If is 100g legal, is TACN much better way for any attempts. ANFO is for commercial use, with 5 inch of diameter. Not for beginers without detonator.


TheShedChemist - 13-11-2022 at 13:46

Hi, I tried the procedure from your channel today and my product was a white powder (id imagine there was <1g), no blue crystals formed, but there was a deep blue solution (schweitzer's reagent i'm guessing). I shook the bottle for 15 minutes, opened the bottle about 10 times and squeezed it multiple times to let in oxygen. What i did notice was when i first poured in the ammonia, there was a lot of vapour/ fog in the bottle. I used an excess of ammonia (~75g 32% conc), 12g of copper wire and 30g of ammonium nitrate.

As for the ammonium nitrate, i made it by double displacement of calcium nitrate + ammonium sulphate --> calcium sulphate + ammonium nitrate and filtering the precipitated calcium sulphate, leaving ammonium nitrate solution and then boiling off the water. I don't know why, but no where online sells ammonium nitrate, otherwise i would have bought it. Therefore, i had to buy fertiliser grade ammonium sulphate and calcium nitrate; neither of which i know the purity. I couldn't even be certain what i have is ammonium nitrate

So, would i be better buying pure copper nitrate off a chemical supplier for £15/500g instead of trying to figure out what is going wrong? Or is it obvious and i just cant see it?

thanks

Laboratory of Liptakov - 13-11-2022 at 14:37

Your NH4NO3 is not NH4NO3 but something else. Melting point (of very dry) NH4NO3 is 169.6 Celsius. And boiling point at 210 = run decomposition, only smokes without any residuum on hot surface. After reaction must stay only 2- 3g of copper wire in plactic bottle. And bottle is necessary cooling on zero better on - 10 C before filtration. For maximal yield.
Copper nitrate will not works I estimate. Farmers all over the world use thousands of kilograms of pure NH4NO3 (+ 4% MgO insoluble in water) It can be much easily way, than double displacement of any compounds. Find an e-shop, fertilizer for gardeners, not a supplier of pure chemicals. And find out the composition. It is usually 96% NH4NO3 + 4% MgO.

[Edited on 13-11-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

TheShedChemist - 13-11-2022 at 15:22

Ok, i have no clue what i have then. That explains a lot. What i meant was instead of using ammonium nitrate, copper metal and NH4OH was just to react copper nitrate and ammonia solution, so no ammonium nitrate is needed? Sorry i didnt make that clear.

Im really doubting myself now... I can spend £15 on either 500g of copper nitrate or 500g ammonium nitrate (i found some online eventually) as im not confident i am able to make ammonium nitrate really for cheaper than it is to buy it. What do you think? which should i buy (if either)?
Im thinking i wont need ammonium nitrate if i have TACN anyway as the copper nitrate + NH4OH procedure seems a lot easier than copper + NH4OH + NH4NO3?

[Edited on 13-11-2022 by TheShedChemist]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 13-11-2022 at 15:42

NH4NO3 is more importantly for a lot reactions than Cu (NO3)2. You can buy both, of course. Procedure with NH4NO3 is tested 100x.
Procedure with Cu (NO3)2 not one more.

BlackPowderBoy - 13-11-2022 at 15:45

Is there nowhere around you that sells "instant ice packs" you can find ammonium nitrate in those and purify using decantation. Any sort of pharmacy store usually carries them, Idk if there is a UK equivalent to "Rite Aid or Walgreens" but stores like those.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 14-11-2022 at 00:37

Instant ice packs sometime content mixture NH4NO3 + NaNO3 or else salts, which can be difficult apart. Also exist packs without NH4NO3. For example NH4Cl + KNO3 1:1.
https://www.poison.org/articles/whats-inside-ice-packs-201#:...

[Edited on 14-11-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

BlackPowderBoy - 14-11-2022 at 03:27

Are there any that have truly pure AN without any trace chemicals? I buy a brand that is snow white and only prints "ammonium nitrate, water" on the package. I can't find an exact msds file so I'm hoping there aren't trace amounts of things like sodium nitrate or some other salt even if not printed on the box. The AN I've used has never done me wrong so I'm not sure. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Edited on 14-11-2022 by BlackPowderBoy]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 14-11-2022 at 06:04

Tracing amount 0.0 - 1.5 % NaNO3 is not important for prepare TACN. Because NaNO3 stays dissolved in solution without negative reaction for main procedure.