Sciencemadness Discussion Board

can you help me ?

mordoh - 26-2-2004 at 18:54

Hey there .

I guess that this question is kinda out of your forum usual topics , but i dont know where else to ask that....

i need to know if water can make any reaction with ethanol .... you see i made a tincture of herbs with ethanol , and when i added disiltised water to that it made my skin burn like hell..... any ideas?

Thanks.

Mumbles - 26-2-2004 at 19:01

I'd say it was something with the herbs. Water and Ethanol make no reaction, other than a hydration when adding water to high concentration ethanol. Anyone feel free to correct me if they know something I do not.

Perhaps there was a scratch on your skin. Alcohol in cuts would probably burn pretty good. I know isopropyl does. Perhaps you had an allergic reaction to some of the herbs. It's hard to tell without more info. What herbs? What conc. of Ethanol? What the skin surface looked like afterwards? Anything else at all besides EtOH, herb extract and water?

mordoh - 26-2-2004 at 19:11

i used this herbs :

green tea , capsicum (mayb this kind of herb..) , balm mint , nettle , thymus

i soaked them all seperatly in ethanol 95%
for 2 weeks , and then i have mixed them together in a seperate glass ,. after that i add the disiltised water (very small amount ) and put that on my skin ... and what i felt was a burning sensation (like after you tan alot) ... there was no redness of the skin and nothing unusual from the out side..
anything you can tell from that?

thanks.

DDTea - 26-2-2004 at 19:47

The active ingredient in Capsicum, what causes the burning, is a chemical called "Oleoresin Capsicum" (OC) or just Capsaicin. It is one of, if not the most, irritating naturally-occuring substance. If you let it Capsicum soak in Ethanol for 2 weeks, no doubt much Capsaicin has dissolved in the Ethanol-- and in contact with skin, this would burn! In fact, pure Capsaicin can cause blistering. I would avoid this ingredient in the future for skin products :).

mordoh - 26-2-2004 at 19:55

Thanks alot for all the answers.

Just 1 more question .

i use the tinctures for a reason..trying to get rid of my body hair,... and i wanted to know if the ethanol tincture penetrates the skin and into the hair follicle , or evaporates when it contacts the skin .. and can penetration enhancers with the ethanol help , like - Dmso , Propylene glycol , Oleic acid
I just need to enter all of the active ingriedients of the herbs into the skin and i read that liquid substences penetrates better the creams and lotions

Thanks alot for your help

Lugh - 27-2-2004 at 00:47

Use a blade for christsake!
It's a hell of a lot safer than trying to get as many chems on your skin as possible.

axehandle - 27-2-2004 at 03:11

Quote:

The active ingredient in Capsicum, what causes the burning, is a chemical called "Oleoresin Capsicum" (OC) or just Capsaicin. It is one of, if not the most, irritating naturally-occuring substance. If you let it Capsicum soak in Ethanol for 2 weeks, no doubt much Capsaicin has dissolved in the Ethanol-- and in contact with skin, this would burn! In fact, pure Capsaicin can cause blistering. I would avoid this ingredient in the future for skin products .

Ah, but it would make a nice improvised teargas spray if put in an aerosol can..... hmmmm.



And as for the topic: AFAIK, the only way to permanently remove hair involves laser treatment. For a quick temporary solution I would suggest *buying* hair removal cream. One's own skin is not a good lab animal.

Saerynide - 27-2-2004 at 04:10

Just use wax :P

mordoh - 27-2-2004 at 04:11

well , i tried laser and whatever you want...
and i tried my herb extracts.. and i can say i get alot better results with it on some part of my skin with no skin problems so far.,

but i just wanted to be sure if the ethanol and all the active ingridients in the plants can penetrate the skin and not evaporates , please let me know , its very importent to me.

thanks

I am a fish - 27-2-2004 at 05:02

On a related note, were you using pure ethanol or denatured ethanol (i.e. ethanol that has been deliberately contaminated in order to render it unfit for human consumption and so exempting it from liquor taxation)? If it was denatured, what was it denatured with? Some denaturants are pretty nasty and so are unsuitable for use in cosmetics.
Quote:
Originally posted by axehandle
One's own skin is not a good lab animal.


My thoughts exactly. Use someone else's skin. :D

[Edited on 27-2-2004 by I am a fish]

axehandle - 27-2-2004 at 05:17

There is another procedure: Insertion of heated needles into the follicles (OUCH).

I must ask, just out of curiosity: When you "tried" laser, was it performed by a pro or did you use some kind of industrial CO2 laser?

To answer your question of CH3CH2OH penetration: I would think that it penetrates <b>if the skin is absolutely dry</b>.

When I use a special kind of deodorant in my armpits, which consists of aluminum chloride hexahydrate dissolved in ethanol, I

1) Wash the skin with a detergent normally used for washing the dishes.
2) Use a hair drier for 10min to completely dehydrate the skin.
3) Apply the fluid, rubbing it in good.
4) Try to ignore the itching for a couple of hours.

This helps absorption, and also limits the itching (which is augmented by water presence).

I think it's also proof that ethanol penetrates, since the deodorant doesn't contain (much) water, only ethanol and the aluminum chloride hexahydrate.

This was probably information that most of you could have done without, but I feel.... contributative... today.

mordoh - 27-2-2004 at 05:43

thanks axehandle for the reply

about your question... i went to a pro laser in my country , also tryed with light... and nothing really worked on me.. so i saw articles on the herbs and patents , and said.. well why not to try that , thats my only chance to get rid of the hair

im really glad i entered this forum .

anyone here knows about the herbs ... i mean their effect on the skin and body.

I know that i need to inhibit the 5-lipoxygenase and cyclooxygenase in order to make this work....

so if anyone can tell me about the herbs that i use (in previous post) .. their good and bad effect, i will be really happy

thanks

Lugh - 27-2-2004 at 05:56

Quote:

green tea , capsicum (mayb this kind of herb..) , balm mint , nettle , thymus

Can I just ask.. is it thymus you used or thyme?
Small spelling difference but big difference in material.

chemoleo - 27-2-2004 at 06:08

Yes, the burning sensation definetly comes from the capsaicin, from the capsicum (which is a pepper and not a herb IIRC). Capsaicin specifically stimulates heat receptors, hence a heat sensation. That's why hot foods are called 'hot' as capsaicin really does stimulate heat perception. Alternatively, menthol stimulates cold receptors, thus the cold sensation when you have it in sweets etc.

Do you know what happens when you inhibit 5-lipoxygenase and cyclooxygenase ? what compounds from the herbs are supposed to inhibit them?

Saerynide - 27-2-2004 at 06:19

Quote:
Originally posted by axehandleWhen I use a special kind of deodorant in my armpits, which consists of aluminum chloride hexahydrate dissolved in ethanol, I

1) Wash the skin with a detergent normally used for washing the dishes.
2) Use a hair drier for 10min to completely dehydrate the skin.
3) Apply the fluid, rubbing it in good.
4) Try to ignore the itching for a couple of hours.

This helps absorption, and also limits the itching (which is augmented by water presence).

I think it's also proof that ethanol penetrates, since the deodorant doesn't contain (much) water, only ethanol and the aluminum chloride hexahydrate.


Doesnt the cumulative effects of Al in the brain cause Alhziemers disease? :o

axehandle - 27-2-2004 at 06:32

Possibly, but I think aluminum chloride is so stable that no free Al is released. I think all antiperspirants contain more or less of the compound. The one I was talking about can only be bought at pharmacies and contains 20% aluminum chloride hexahydrate in ethanol.

Stops all sweating for about 10 DAYS.

[Edited on 2004-2-27 by axehandle]

Saerynide - 27-2-2004 at 07:46

My god :o

mordoh - 27-2-2004 at 08:04

---------------------------------------------------
Can I just ask.. is it thymus you used or thyme?
Small spelling difference but big difference in material
---------------------------------------------------

well ... thyme is called thymus communis.. and thats what i use...


-------------------------------------------------
Do you know what happens when you inhibit 5-lipoxygenase and cyclooxygenase ? what compounds from the herbs are supposed to inhibit them?
-------------------------------------------------

when you inhibit 5-lipoxygenase it evantually inhibit the leukotrienes, which inhibits the hair growth ,.... the 5-lipoxygenase and cyclooxygenase presents in the herbs leafs - check out : http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/
for more information about that.


any other comments , advice ... anything about how do you think i can make the spray , water + ethanol , only ethanol ... anything ?
thanks

mordoh - 27-2-2004 at 08:19

can it be that when water comes in touch with the capsicum i get more burning senseation then with out any water?

axehandle - 27-2-2004 at 09:21

Very possibly. That's my experience with many compounds. Water might act as an absorption agent, i.e. the solid compound becomes a suspension in water, and water transports it into your pores.

Btw, capsicum is, unless I'm completely mistaken, what is used in "pepper spray". I wouldn't use it on my skin. Be careful, OK? A little excess hair is much better than huge skin burns.

Edit: Oh, my 200th post! This calls for a celebration.... where did I stash that beer....


[Edited on 2004-2-27 by axehandle]

guaguanco - 27-2-2004 at 09:51

Your method (random plants and chili pepper in ethanol) is going to be pretty tough on your skin, long term, and is probably a pretty inefficient hair-removal method. You'd be much better off consulting a cosmetologist. They've been dealing with these problems for centuries, and have a pretty god idea how to do it effectively and gently.
Then again, I hear fuming nitric acid works great, and doesn't sting too bad. Try that!
(just kidding just kidding)

chemoleo - 27-2-2004 at 09:53

Another good one is selenium - it rapidly removes your hair, but sadly not just in the applied area.... you'd look like a chemotherapy victim!
Besides that, it's exceedingly toxic, so don't even think about it!

mordoh - 27-2-2004 at 11:25

ok ... thank you all for your comments.
you really helped me

mordoh - 4-3-2004 at 03:34

Hey again everyone ... i really hope you can help me with this new questions...

do you know if there is a diffrence between extraction of herbs in ethanol and extraction in water ( are diffrent plant chemicals go out diffrent with each vehicle? )


do you know of any way to make a transdermal spray effectivly ? i have tinctures made of 40% ethanol and 60% water , and i wanted to know whats the best way to get them past the stratum corneum . i read that spray is the best, i also have propylene glycol and dmso ,.. do you think that can help me deliver the water and alcohol phase into my skin?

thanks.

axehandle - 4-3-2004 at 07:49

Do <b>NOT</b> use glycol on your skin!

As for the spray thing, and the extraction, I would go with 95% ethanol.

But I still don't like the idea of you using yourself as a guinea pig in this way. At least try the mixture a few times on a mouse first.

Mumbles - 4-3-2004 at 14:54

Different chemicals will dissolve in water and ethanol. The Polar ones will go out in water. I found theres a brown tarry stuff in some of the leaves around my house that come out with water.

I think ethanol will take out some of both. It will dissolve some of the non polar, while the water will not. You might have noticed this with the pepper extract.

mordoh - 4-3-2004 at 15:06

thanks..

any idea about how to transfer the water-ethanol tincture into the skin?

You just apply topically

Hermes_Trismegistus - 4-3-2004 at 23:53

One thing I can see you are confused on is the reason for the alchohol.

Alchohol serves two purposes

1. dissolves the oils and waxes from the plant material into solution.

2. evaporates the solution off of the skin more quickly than water alone, leaving the active ingredients. (no one likes to be wet for ten minutes after applying something to their skin)

*** alchohol will not appreciably absorb into your skin (on the outside of the bodY)

If it did, your skin would turn black and fall off(necrosis)

Alchohol is very toxic, that's why the amount in your blood is measured in Parts Per thousand and even at that level, you can DIE!

the reason the skin in your stomach survives alchohol poisoning is also complicated, the main reasons are

1. the alchohol does not remain in the cells for very long, Uptake is superfast in your GI tract. it passes through the cell and is whisked away in your blood plasma and lyphatic fluids.

2. The skin in your stomach is particularly tough, and each layer only lasts a matter of hours so damage is extremely temporary.

Your epithelium however would hold the alchohol for longer and toxify more quickly.

If you wish to test this for yourself, simply inject a small amount of ethanol about 3 mm under the skin. A "bruise" of dead tissue will form. Be sure to excise the dead tissue after to prevent a subcutaneous infection. (dead tissue has no immunity to bacteria)

axehandle - 5-3-2004 at 03:51

Good. This calms me, since I'm going to party tonight. I won't inject any alcohol in my skin however. Necrosis is very very bad.

/A
Quote:

the reason the skin in your stomach survives alchohol poisoning is also complicated, the main reasons are

1. the alchohol does not remain in the cells for very long, Uptake is superfast in your GI tract. it passes through the cell and is whisked away in your blood plasma and lyphatic fluids.

2. The skin in your stomach is particularly tough, and each layer only lasts a matter of hours so damage is extremely temporary.

Your epithelium however would hold the alchohol for longer and toxify more quickly.

If you wish to test this for yourself, simply inject a small amount of ethanol about 3 mm under the skin. A "bruise" of dead tissue will form. Be sure to excise the dead tissue after to prevent a subcutaneous infection. (dead tissue has no immunity to bacteria)