Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Water and fuel mix?

Fantasma4500 - 8-12-2021 at 10:09

i was just thinking about how they used a mixture of a supersaturated chemical in water along with 5% of waxed aluminium
it required a big booster
water takes some heat ouf of the energy output itself, so i thought why not just add more aluminium, so it would maybe react with the water?
and then- why not just use aluminium and water, or maybe deactivated magnesium and water? that should work, right?
non conventional energetics have been made and used, such as silicon and liquid oxygen, so this could work too

i also remember seeing and trying magnesium + snow, and another hint on this being possible is nasa making nano aluminium powder and mixing with ice, they called it ALICE, rocket propellant

supposedly this would be the reaction
2 Al + 3 H2O = Al2O3 + 3 H2

so you would seemingly still want some oxidizer left in the mix

i gave up trying to find any references on det of this mix as water and aluminium are 2 quite common terms on the internet

Tsjerk - 8-12-2021 at 10:47

Aluminium and water do react, but Al2O3 forms a protective layer over the aluminum.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 8-12-2021 at 14:02

On nano aluminium arise too much Al2O3 on ratio at aluminium. Surface layer of Al2O3 is basically same thickness. After a same time after production. But particles are 100x - 1000x smaller. Therefore amount of Al2O3 can be 100x bigger after same time. Or more. Than at normal micro particles. Yes. Mixture nano Alu + water as charge will works. But booster I estimate on 100g brizant and main charge minimal 5 Kg. And the all with fresh nano particles.

Gargamel - 9-12-2021 at 13:31

Quote:

Aluminium and water do react, but Al2O3 forms a protective layer over the aluminum.

I wonder how good this works if the water contains salts :D

Hydro-AN mixtures are very interesting, I wonder how long they store.
Ammonal IS storage stable, and it is never fully dry.

Admagistr - 9-12-2021 at 14:58

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  
i was just thinking about how they used a mixture of a supersaturated chemical in water along with 5% of waxed aluminium
it required a big booster
water takes some heat ouf of the energy output itself, so i thought why not just add more aluminium, so it would maybe react with the water?
and then- why not just use aluminium and water, or maybe deactivated magnesium and water? that should work, right?
non conventional energetics have been made and used, such as silicon and liquid oxygen, so this could work too

i also remember seeing and trying magnesium + snow, and another hint on this being possible is nasa making nano aluminium powder and mixing with ice, they called it ALICE, rocket propellant

supposedly this would be the reaction
2 Al + 3 H2O = Al2O3 + 3 H2

so you would seemingly still want some oxidizer left in the mix

i gave up trying to find any references on det of this mix as water and aluminium are 2 quite common terms on the internet


Aluminium reacts violently with water, which heats up and produces a lot of hydrogen, just mixing the aluminum with the gallium and heating it up a little bit so that the aluminum dissolves in the gallium. I tried it and the reaction was pretty energetic;)

Admagistr - 9-12-2021 at 15:05

2Al+4H2O=2AlOOH+3H2.

MineMan - 10-12-2021 at 02:17

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
On nano aluminium arise too much Al2O3 on ratio at aluminium. Surface layer of Al2O3 is basically same thickness. After a same time after production. But particles are 100x - 1000x smaller. Therefore amount of Al2O3 can be 100x bigger after same time. Or more. Than at normal micro particles. Yes. Mixture nano Alu + water as charge will works. But booster I estimate on 100g brizant and main charge minimal 5 Kg. And the all with fresh nano particles.


I would disagree. The oxide layer is 4nm thick, while most nm Al particles are 100nm. Even after years, 100nm aluminum is still good.

One would be insane not to use a 30 percent hydrogen peroxide instead, it will still be stable but more sensitive and more powerful.

Fantasma4500 - 16-12-2021 at 00:56

ammonia for instance prevents steel from rusting
in vietnam they used "daisy cutters"
1m3 of ammonium salt slurry with 5% waxed aluminium
it required a strong booster, but it gave off much more gas as the water would become a gas and cause effective and cheap gas output, supposedly with lower total heat

as for using H2O2- i think were gonna have to let that one sit until we can come up with very doable ways of making it at home, i would nominate PbO2 electrolysis of perchlorate salts forming ozone, then that reacted with water to form H2O2

i dont think you can rely on oxide layer to protect aluminium, there were cases where wet firecrackers went off all on their own, and thats surely not nanoparticles, probably around 800 mesh aluminium powder, and due to the low solubility of perchlorate that shouldnt make much of an impact
i doubt the tiny bit of sulfur in the blackpowder from the fuse would have much impact either, i believe aluminium oxide formed on aluminium powder is somewhat porous, now that i think of it, boric acid is normally used in pyrotechnic mixtures with water and aluminium, and also used for some productions such as belt-sander with aluminium bar where the dust is caught in a solution of boric acid

Colleen Ortiz - 27-1-2022 at 22:53

When Aluminum and Water react, During shipment, handling, outdoor storage, unintentional damage, or cable junction or termination failures, water can enter a cable. Aluminium interacts with water to generate hydrogen gas according to the equation 2Al + 3H2O 3H2 + Al2O3 because of its significantly negative redox potential. When this chemical reaction happens between the strands of an aluminum conductor, it may be very important. Evidence suggests that such a process might result in a considerable build-up of hydrogen gas.
At room temperature, the aluminum metal reacts easily with water to generate aluminum hydroxide and hydrogen. A coating of aluminum oxide naturally protects the raw metal, preventing it from coming into direct contact with water. This reaction seldom occurs. The aluminum-water interaction generates hydrogen without emitting any greenhouse gases, and it promises to address the transportation problem in any area with water. The most effective option is to use radial and longitudinal water blocking prevention measures to prevent water from entering the power conductor system in the first place. These safeguards, however, are not always present. Copper, rather than aluminum, is a second and as effective alternative. The problem is solved since copper does not react with water.
The following is the interaction between aluminum metal and water at room temperature to produce aluminum hydroxide and hydrogen:
2 Al + 6 H2O = 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 H2 = 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 H2.
The aluminum oxide layer on the metal is disrupted by these additions.

MineMan - 28-1-2022 at 15:24

Quote: Originally posted by Colleen Ortiz  
When Aluminum and Water react, During shipment, handling, outdoor storage, unintentional damage, or cable junction or termination failures, water can enter a cable. Aluminium interacts with water to generate hydrogen gas according to the equation 2Al + 3H2O 3H2 + Al2O3 because of its significantly negative redox potential. When this chemical reaction happens between the strands of an aluminum conductor, it may be very important. Evidence suggests that such a process might result in a considerable build-up of hydrogen gas.
At room temperature, the aluminum metal reacts easily with water to generate aluminum hydroxide and hydrogen. A coating of aluminum oxide naturally protects the raw metal, preventing it from coming into direct contact with water. This reaction seldom occurs. The aluminum-water interaction generates hydrogen without emitting any greenhouse gases, and it promises to address the transportation problem in any area with water. The most effective option is to use radial and longitudinal water blocking prevention measures to prevent water from entering the power conductor system in the first place. These safeguards, however, are not always present. Copper, rather than aluminum, is a second and as effective alternative. The problem is solved since copper does not react with water.
The following is the interaction between aluminum metal and water at room temperature to produce aluminum hydroxide and hydrogen:
2 Al + 6 H2O = 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 H2 = 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 H2.
The aluminum oxide layer on the metal is disrupted by these additions.


What’s your point?