Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Onyxmet Fluorine sphere : really ?

metalresearcher - 3-11-2021 at 05:20

This normally reliable site sells also F2 gas in glass (?) transparent balls of 5cm diameter.
https://onyxmet.com/index.php?route=product/product&path...

But probably the glass will fog due to attack by the F2 gas. Is that true ?

Tsjerk - 3-11-2021 at 05:37

It is possible to treat the surface of glass, making it inert. I read about it, but can't remember how it is done.

Edit: https://www.fluoridealert.org/wp-content/pesticides/glass.co...

[Edited on 3-11-2021 by Tsjerk]

timescale - 3-11-2021 at 07:12

According to "Greg P.", the guy who made this sample

https://periodictable.com/Items/009.5/index.html

...the trick is to have the fewest possible exposed hydroxyls on the glass surface, which will react with the F2. He uses a single-crystal quartz tube, but I doubt that glass sphere is single-crystal quartz.

Onyxmet also sells fluorine keychains :D sounds like a spontaneous combustion hazard!

sauveurdumonde - 3-11-2021 at 08:11

I would be terrified to have a fluorine keychain in my pocket. You sit on it the wrong way, your pants are on fire :(

wg48temp9 - 3-11-2021 at 16:15

According to the interesting video on Fluorine below, Fluorine does not attack dry (presumably very dry) glass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtWp45Eewtw

woelen - 4-11-2021 at 02:22

Normally I really recommend Onyxmet (I have purchased quite a few times from him and he never disappointed me). But with this item I have severe doubts. If I look at the pictures, then I have the impression that I already see some cloudiness of the glass. It does not look really clear to me. It is shiny on the outside, but inside it looks frosty somewhat. So, I think that a nice amount of fluorine is put in the sphere, but that soon after, all of it is converted to SiF4 and HF.

Herr Haber - 4-11-2021 at 04:07

Quote: Originally posted by sauveurdumonde  
I would be terrified to have a fluorine keychain in my pocket. You sit on it the wrong way, your pants are on fire :(


I have several keychains with tritium vials.
No, I dont have kids :)

sauveurdumonde - 4-11-2021 at 06:46

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
Quote: Originally posted by sauveurdumonde  
I would be terrified to have a fluorine keychain in my pocket. You sit on it the wrong way, your pants are on fire :(


I have several keychains with tritium vials.
No, I dont have kids :)


Personally, I think tritium is a lot less dangerous than fluorine... We all likely drink a little bit of tritiated water every day

But do we inhale fluorine? I hope not

I'm guessing yours have been made to glow- what colour?

Herr Haber - 4-11-2021 at 10:55

Quote: Originally posted by sauveurdumonde  

I'm guessing yours have been made to glow- what colour?


All of them, in all size and most shapes :)
The one I'm currently using is made to look like a hurricane lamp.
My biggest is not a keychain but a map reader.

I would worry if I had to carry a similar sized sample in liquid form in my trousers. Actually, I wouldnt worry as I would never do that.

The last picture of the fluorine spheres being made is pretty cool.
And very intriguing. Why the multimeter ?

karlos³ - 4-11-2021 at 11:07

Cylinder of fluorine! :o
Fucking cylinder of fluorine gas! :o

Tsjerk - 4-11-2021 at 11:55

I love the "we don't need lab coats, we are working with fluorine anyway" mentality.

I think the right not having to wear a lab coat can be earned, and working with fluorine is a way to do so.

[Edited on 4-11-2021 by Tsjerk]

Herr Haber - 4-11-2021 at 12:27

Did a little digging:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313254429477
On ebay it says 30% in N
It's the same bottle and the same desk (look at the marks on the last picture) as on Onyxmet.
Maybe I'm wrong but I assume that Onyxmet is resselling items manufactured by a glassblower in Russia.

Some of the items this seller has are pretty sexy. A mercury vapour uranium glass discharge tube for your elements display, how cool is that ?

Fantasma4500 - 4-11-2021 at 13:29

do we inhale fluorine? no but fluorine compounds are used many places, such as blowing agent for polyurethane foam, and as "canned air"- worryingly they have produced a fluorine compound that has zero smell so now you wouldnt even know that its not air in that can, or- most people wouldnt

we have had one person hospitalized after an explosion of fluorocarbons from PU foam tubes blown with fluorocarbons, fluorocarbons are considered safe, though cooling modules are difficult to recycle due to the hazadous fluorocarbons in there. it seems like they just make up a new fluorocarbon and it takes them some years to figure out that, yes, fluorine chemicals are all toxic

if you burn off difluoroethane, it will produce hydrogen fluoride
i feel more safe eating uranium than brushing teeth with fluoride toothpaste- not that i do either. theres a very serious bias on fluorides in the scientific community, most fluoride comes from phosphate mining industry where about half half is phosphate and fluoride, its cheaper to dispose of fluorides in tap water than to store it as the poison that it is. luckily we have so many places we can squeeze fluorine in, such as even in drugs now, 4-fluoroamphetamine. ugh.

phlogiston - 4-11-2021 at 15:58

The lack of lab coats is one thing, but I do find it odd that there doesn't appear to be any containment or local ventilation of the fluorine once it hits the samples. They seem to be working outside of a fume hood. Do they rely on all fluorine reacting with the sample? Even if there is no residual elemental fluorine, surely some of the reaction products in that smoke would be rather unhealthy to just vent into the lab atmosphere.

j_sum1 - 4-11-2021 at 16:12

Yrah. I have eondrred that too each time I have watched that vidro. It is a lovely closed system until they start reacting it with things. And I brt, once a hole is punched in that steel wool, wuite a bit of the gas passes through unreacted.

Texium - 5-11-2021 at 06:22

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  

i feel more safe eating uranium than brushing teeth with fluoride toothpaste- not that i do either. theres a very serious bias on fluorides in the scientific community, most fluoride comes from phosphate mining industry where about half half is phosphate and fluoride, its cheaper to dispose of fluorides in tap water than to store it as the poison that it is.
Ah yes, way to just casually drop in a batshit conspiracy theory as if it’s well known fact…
Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Yrah. I have eondrred that too each time I have watched that vidro. It is a lovely closed system until they start reacting it with things. And I brt, once a hole is punched in that steel wool, wuite a bit of the gas passes through unreacted.
Typing with your toes again, J?

[Edited on 11-5-2021 by Texium]

itsallgoodjames - 5-11-2021 at 08:11

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  

i feel more safe eating uranium than brushing teeth with fluoride toothpaste- not that i do either. theres a very serious bias on fluorides in the scientific community, most fluoride comes from phosphate mining industry where about half half is phosphate and fluoride, its cheaper to dispose of fluorides in tap water than to store it as the poison that it is. luckily we have so many places we can squeeze fluorine in, such as even in drugs now, 4-fluoroamphetamine. ugh.

Fluorine compounds do actually have uses in medicine and organic chem. Fluorine is very good at sucking up electron density, and many other things. It's not like anyone just randomly decided "we've got all this fluoride, let's put it amphetamine", normal unsubstituted amphetamine is likely cheaper to produce. There is no reason it would be used unless there was an actual reason to.

Also, there's reasons fluorides are in toothpaste and water. The risks of fluorides in these applications have been thoroughly studied, and the benefits outweigh the risks by far. Unless you're eating entire tubes of toothpaste for fun, the danger of fluoride toxicity is essentially negligible. Again it'd be cheaper to not have them than to have them, they're there for a reason.
Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  
seems like they just make up a new fluorocarbon and it takes them some years to figure out that, yes, fluorine chemicals are all toxic.

No.
Many fluorocarbons and hydrofluorocarbons are some of the most inert organic compounds known. The main danger with most HFC refrigerants is asphyxiation, as it displaces air in the lungs. That's it. Most are not really any more dangerous than any other inert gas.
Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  

if you burn off difluoroethane, it will produce hydrogen fluoride

And?
Emmiting hydrohalic acids (and even worse, carbonyl halides) is something that happens when nearly any organohalide is burned. This isn't unique to organofluorides.

Morgan - 5-11-2021 at 10:09

Seems like toothpaste is enough fluoride. I recall reading about accidental large amounts being put in the drinking water from malfunctioning equipment at water utility authorities. Also I read some American wines can't be sold in Europe for too high levels of fluoride from pesticides used on grapes. And kidney patients and those that drink copious amounts of water each day may get too much fluoride. Things like some instant teas and powder eggs are very high in fluoride. And the often used hexafluoride isn't exactly sourced from pristine sources without contaminates. And this about lead from fluoridated water and other tidbits ..

"Prevalence of children with elevated blood lead (PbB>10microg/dL) is about double that in non-fluoridated communities (Risk Ratio 2, chi2p<0.01). SiFW is associated with serious corrosion of lead-bearing brass plumbing, producing elevated water lead (PbW) at the faucet. New data refute the long-prevailing belief that PbW contributes little to children's blood lead (PbB), it is likely to contribute 50% or more. (2) SiFW has been shown to interfere with cholinergic function. Unlike the fully ionized state of fluoride (F-) in water treated with sodium fluoride (NaFW), the SiF anion, [SiF6]2- in SiFW releases F- in a complicated dissociation process. Small amounts of incompletely dissociated [SiF6]2- or low molecular weight (LMW) silicic acid (SA) oligomers may remain in SiFW. A German PhD study found that SiFW is a more powerful inhibitor of acetylcholinesterase (AChE) than NaFW."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17420053/

Environmental groups petition EPA to retract fluoride pesticide tolerances on food
https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news-release/environmental...

"Washing of grape skins produced appreciable quantities of fluoride."

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2011/01/11/1328349...

https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20050125/harmful-flu...

Even toothpaste has a caution.
"By following these guidelines, you won’t have to buy toothpaste as often as you have in the past. You will also avoid damaging your and your child’s teeth with excessive fluoridation which is common among those who use more toothpaste than needed."
https://www.harrisdental.com/blog/how-much-toothpaste-should...


"Kids – rice grain sized smear. That way if it’s accidentally swallowed, it won’t be enough to cause intestinal problems or issues with tooth development."
https://prestondental.ca/blog/faq/how-much-toothpaste-should...

I don't think we need more fluoride in the water given that there're so many sources that seem to be adding up in one way or another going into our soils and rivers. When you have multiple detrimental factors in life, one more may seem insignificate but add in air pollution, unhealthy foods, Covid, cancer, unlucky genes, prior accidents, old age, carry all the things that take a toll on the body and cumulatively, finally one will break the camel's back.
The cells in your body like clean air and water, simple as that.

"Fluoride accumulates in the bone tissues of fish and in the exoskeleton of aquatic invertebrates. The mechanism of fluoride toxicity in aquatic organisms is believed to involve the action of fluoride ions as enzymatic poisons. In soft waters with low ionic content, invertebrates and fishes may suffer adverse effects from fluoride concentration as low as 0.5 mg/L"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_toxicity

[Edited on 5-11-2021 by Morgan]

karlos³ - 5-11-2021 at 12:21

I somewhere read or heard that school children sometimes swallow(ed) larger amounts of tooth paste to get fever?
Is this an urban myth?
Wouldn't that be pretty dangerous actually? :o

I just found out it does make you pretty sick and kids are told not to do it.
Hmmm.

Personally, I don't use toothpaste with fluoride in it either, for years now, but thats mostly because of a general aversion to any ionic fluorides, which in turn might have to do with a coworker who lost a bit of his finger due to HF.
Such stories with the toxicity of toothpaste, mostly due to the fluoride(or what else?), do not make me feel comfortable using this.
We do not sweeten our wine with lead acetate anymore either.

Also, lets not forget to differ between covalent and ionic fluorine, the former is as far as I know metabolised and excreted completely as metabolites who still have a covalent bond to the fluorine.
Organics containing fluorine do have no influence on fluoride uptake.
And if so, that would be news to me and pretty surprising.
Thus, they are of pretty limited toxicity because the fluorine atom acts more like a "fake hydrogen" than anything else in the body.
Its just fluorides which are this toxic.

Morgan - 5-11-2021 at 12:27

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³  
I somewhere read or heard that school children sometimes swallow(ed) larger amounts of tooth paste to get fever?
Is this an urban myth?
Wouldn't that be pretty dangerous actually? :o

I just found out it does make you pretty sick and kids are told not to do it.
Hmmm.

Personally, I don't use toothpaste with fluoride in it either, for years now, but thats mostly because of a general aversion to any ionic fluorides, which in turn might have to do with a coworker who lost a bit of his finger due to HF.
Such stories with the toxicity of toothpaste, mostly due to the fluoride(or what else?), do not make me feel comfortable using this.
We do not sweeten our wine with lead acetate anymore either.

Also, lets not forget to differ between covalent and ionic fluorine, the former is as far as I know metabolised and excreted completely as metabolites who still have a covalent bond to the fluorine.
Organics containing fluorine do have no influence on fluoride uptake.
And if so, that would be news to me and pretty surprising.
Thus, they are of pretty limited toxicity because the fluorine atom acts more like a "fake hydrogen" than anything else in the body.
Its just fluorides which are this toxic.


"Despite the perceived stability of the C–F bond, chemical instability and drug-metabolizing enzymes can lead to its cleavage. The resulting release of fluoride and formation of certain metabolites may cause safety issues and warrant the medicinal chemists’ attention."
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsmedchemlett.9b00235

To be fair just eating toothpaste without fluoride in it could probably make one sick from the other Ingredients. I use fluoride toothpaste but very little on my brush.

Tidbit I was reading today ...
"The biodegradation of methoxyflurane begins immediately. The kidney and liver toxicity observed after anesthetic doses is attributable to one or more metabolites produced by O-demethylation of methoxyflurane. Products of this catabolic process include methoxyfluoroacetic acid (MFAA), dichloroacetic acid (DCAA), and inorganic fluoride.[18] Methoxyflurane nephrotoxicity is dose dependent[21][24][25] and irreversible, resulting from O-demethylation of methoxyflurane to fluoride and DCAA.[2] It is not entirely clear whether the fluoride itself is toxic—it may simply be a surrogate measure for some other toxic metabolite.[26] The concurrent formation of inorganic fluoride and DCAA is unique to methoxyflurane biotransformation compared with other volatile anesthetics, and this combination is more toxic than fluoride alone. This may explain why fluoride formation from methoxyflurane is associated with nephrotoxicity, while fluoride formation from other volatile anesthetics (such as enflurane and sevoflurane) is not."

"This study provided a model that would be used for the assessment of the nephrotoxicity of volatile anesthetics for the next two decades.[22] Furthermore, the concurrent use of tetracyclines and methoxyflurane has been reported to result in fatal renal toxicity."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methoxyflurane

[Edited on 5-11-2021 by Morgan]