Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Flare composition I discovered

Linus1208 - 22-8-2021 at 06:47

So I discovered quite a bright and simple to make Flare composition.
It consists of TCCA and Magnesium (40µm) in a 1:1 ratio, grind down the TCCA in a Coffe grinder (If your coffe grinder is made from steel, stainless or not, get out the TCCA asap after grinding and wash it out thoroughly with water). Then just mix both ingredients by stirring or shaking (it's not shock or friction sensitive), make sure there are no clumps left.

The mixture can be easily ignited with a normal fuse (it's quite sensitive to sparks / flame) and burns quickly (but not flashpowder-like) and very bright (see video in attachment), the amount used in the video was 4g, the video is in 8x slow motion.

The reaction behind this composition is quite interesting (and also the initial reason I wanted to try this experiment), because in this case TCCA acts as a source of chlorine, oxygen and nitrogen, all of which can oxidize the Magnesium, which is also the reason there's untypically few oxidizing agent (TCCA) in the composition, 1:1 is actually the stoichometric ratio.

2C3Cl3N3O3 + 12Mg = 6C + 3MgCl2 + 3Mg3N2 + 6MgO

The remaining carbon is left as a black, grainy or foam-like residue.

Attachment: IMG_5525.mov (2.8MB)
This file has been downloaded 686 times

Steam - 22-8-2021 at 11:12

Very nice, is the blue-tint an artifact of the camera or does it have that color in-person? Also, about how much powder did you use in that test?

Linus1208 - 23-8-2021 at 03:05

Quote: Originally posted by Steam  
is the blue-tint an artifact of the camera or does it have that color in-person?


I don't really know, in person it just looked blindingly bright, I was immediatly seing spots (or rather, one very large spot).
Maybe I'll do another test from more far away (and with a better fuse :P ) so I will be able to see better.
Quote: Originally posted by Steam  
Also, about how much powder did you use in that test?

The amount, as said, was around 4 grams. In terms of volume I would say it was something like a teaspoon full.

Elemental Phosphorus - 23-8-2021 at 08:57

This reminds me of when I was experimenting with some chlorine-containing flash mixtures. I used to mix pool shock (about 70% calcium hypochlorite with the remainder calcium chloride) with magnalium powder (325 mesh) in around a 2:1 ratio and it was extremely bright, although not fast like flash powder. It also wouldn't always burn completely, if you torched a pile of it sometimes there would be unreacted powder left.

Also the effect on that video seems similar to some compositions using spherical aluminum and sulfur, in terms of burn rate. I've never seen that blue, though.

macckone - 23-8-2021 at 09:04

TCCA is a good oxidizer. It reacts pretty well with glycols as well.

Linus1208 - 23-8-2021 at 11:39

Quote: Originally posted by Elemental Phosphorus  
This reminds me of when I was experimenting with some chlorine-containing flash mixtures. I used to mix pool shock (about 70% calcium hypochlorite with the remainder calcium chloride) with magnalium powder (325 mesh) in around a 2:1 ratio and it was extremely bright, although not fast like flash powder. It also wouldn't always burn completely, if you torched a pile of it sometimes there would be unreacted powder left.


Also did experiments with that a while ago, but with Magnesium instead of Magnalium. It burnt very slowly, but probably because I assumed the "pool shock" kind of chlorine granules to also be TCCA, and only took the chlorine of the TCCA into attention when calculating the stoichiometry. Or in shorter words, I totally screwed up calculating the ratio.
Quote: Originally posted by Elemental Phosphorus  

Also the effect on that video seems similar to some compositions using spherical aluminum and sulfur, in terms of burn rate. I've never seen that blue, though.


Also did a few experiments with that, but if I remember correctly it burnt slower (I was using 40µm sph. Al).
In one experiment, I somehow reversed the mixing ratio and had to balance it with more of the other compound, so I had like 200g of the mixture.
I put it in tin can which I again put in an old steel bucked. The steel bucked later turned out to be slightly wet, because after a few seconds of burning it the composition melted through the tin can, there was a slight crackling noice before it violently exploded, showering me and the lawn in ~3m radius with hot, molten very brightly burning drops of the composition.Fortunately no one was hurt, I got hit by one of the drops in my hair but it didnt do much besides a small bundle of hair sticking together

Elemental Phosphorus - 23-8-2021 at 12:21

Quote: Originally posted by Linus1208  
Quote: Originally posted by Elemental Phosphorus  
This reminds me of when I was experimenting with some chlorine-containing flash mixtures. I used to mix pool shock (about 70% calcium hypochlorite with the remainder calcium chloride) with magnalium powder (325 mesh) in around a 2:1 ratio and it was extremely bright, although not fast like flash powder. It also wouldn't always burn completely, if you torched a pile of it sometimes there would be unreacted powder left.


Also did experiments with that a while ago, but with Magnesium instead of Magnalium. It burnt very slowly, but probably because I assumed the "pool shock" kind of chlorine granules to also be TCCA, and only took the chlorine of the TCCA into attention when calculating the stoichiometry. Or in shorter words, I totally screwed up calculating the ratio.
Quote: Originally posted by Elemental Phosphorus  

Also the effect on that video seems similar to some compositions using spherical aluminum and sulfur, in terms of burn rate. I've never seen that blue, though.


Also did a few experiments with that, but if I remember correctly it burnt slower (I was using 40µm sph. Al).
In one experiment, I somehow reversed the mixing ratio and had to balance it with more of the other compound, so I had like 200g of the mixture.
I put it in tin can which I again put in an old steel bucked. The steel bucked later turned out to be slightly wet, because after a few seconds of burning it the composition melted through the tin can, there was a slight crackling noice before it violently exploded, showering me and the lawn in ~3m radius with hot, molten very brightly burning drops of the composition.Fortunately no one was hurt, I got hit by one of the drops in my hair but it didnt do much besides a small bundle of hair sticking together


That result with the pool shock seems consistent with what I did, I'm sure there is TCCA shock, but in my experience TCCA comes more commonly as tabs. Either way the label should indicate.

In my experiment with Al-Sulfur, I was using 5 micron spherical, so it was probably a little faster. 325 mesh flake magnalium and 325 flake magnesium were both much faster with sulfur, they were fast like a true flash powder (although not as powerful as perchlorate/2 micron dark flake Al flash) and some of the magnalium-sulfur powder in a tube produced a report, although again not nearly as loud as with a similar quantity of perchlorate flash. I never confined the Mg-S mix as it was crazy sensitive.

That said, maybe I'll have to whip up some of this TCCA mix, I always like to play with new flash powders.

Linus1208 - 23-8-2021 at 13:32

Quote: Originally posted by Elemental Phosphorus  

That result with the pool shock seems consistent with what I did, I'm sure there is TCCA shock, but in my experience TCCA comes more commonly as tabs. Either way the label should indicate.


They probably don't put it on the lable to prevent people making explosives from it.
Quote: Originally posted by Elemental Phosphorus  

In my experiment with Al-Sulfur, I was using 5 micron spherical, so it was probably a little faster. 325 mesh flake magnalium and 325 flake magnesium were both much faster with sulfur, they were fast like a true flash powder (although not as powerful as perchlorate/2 micron dark flake Al flash) and some of the magnalium-sulfur powder in a tube produced a report, although again not nearly as loud as with a similar quantity of perchlorate flash. I never confined the Mg-S mix as it was crazy sensitive.


Mg-S is often used among pyro amateurs here in Germany (mostly in an 1:1 ratio, although some people claim that a 6:4 Mg/S mix is more energetic, but if this only can be true unconfined), as even nitrates are very restricted, don't even think about perchlorates. But it's only made with 45µm spherical Mg, which makes it less sensitive and OK to handle, but it's still quite strong and makes a nice sound (not as sharp as some of the strongest flashs do).

AJKOER - 31-8-2021 at 09:56

Some of the visible effects may be due to the associated high temperatures involved and the metal container.

See, for example, this work, "High-temperature chemistry of HCl and Cl2", freely available at https://backend.orbit.dtu.dk/ws/portalfiles/portal/128840669... .

Some detail on underlying chlorine-related radical chemistry. Note, reactions citing OClO, which is as a precursor, in other conditions (not high temperature) for chlorate formation.

Linus1208 - 31-8-2021 at 10:05

Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  
Some of the visible effects may be due to the associated high temperatures involved and the metal container.

See, for example, this work, "High-temperature chemistry of HCl and Cl2", freely available at https://backend.orbit.dtu.dk/ws/portalfiles/portal/128840669... .

Some detail on underlying chlorine-related radical chemistry. Note, reactions citing OClO, which is as a precursor, in other conditions (not high temperature) for chlorate formation.


Thanks for the information, I'll read through it when I have time.