Sciencemadness Discussion Board

distilling Metheglin

pneumatician - 26-4-2021 at 12:11

Well, after Vinegar come... Metheglin.

Someone make their own honey fermentation and after this the Metheglin... and after this distill until a strong honey vinegar or Metheglin???

Of course from real honey purchased in a local producer and not the shit which is sold in supermarkets.

Texium - 26-4-2021 at 13:35

Your threads are just becoming increasingly incoherent...

pneumatician - 26-4-2021 at 14:39

incoherent for you, populars for, many?

if nobody have worked with metheglin and no replies I think you can delete what you want, but Metheglin exist.

Anyone can work with Vinegar or buy a bottle of Acetic acid, but another thing is Metheglin, expensive liquid.

If you want, make one and again and again the same practices but I'm in searching mode, so if you don't have any idea of what I want to accomplish with "acetic acid" of Metheglin is best to subtract in observer mode... ;-)

En fi.

DraconicAcid - 26-4-2021 at 16:44

Why would you let perfectly good mead or metheglin turn to vinegar?

(For those who don't know, metheglin is a variety of mead in which the honey is fermented with various herbs and or spices, generally ones considered medicinal. I'm pretty sure the word "medicine" is actually derived from "metheglin".)

DraconicAcid - 26-4-2021 at 17:22

And if you're not turning it to vinegar, yes, you can distill it to alcohol.

https://waywarddistillery.com/

These people would probably be happy to ship you a bottle upon payment. (Not pyment.)

pneumatician - 27-4-2021 at 08:13

oh yeah, I start with Mead, fermented honey alone. Mead or Metheglin is only a taste option, the base is fermented Honey with water.

"Vinegar" come from sour WINE, so "Vinegar" from honey is onother thing, a vegeto-animal "acetic acid"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead
Mead (/miːd/) is an alcoholic beverage created by fermenting honey with water, sometimes with various fruits, spices, grains, or hops.


Metheglin / meed?
me·theg·lin

[Welsh meddyglyn : meddyg, medicinal (from Latin medicus, from medr, to heal; see med- in Indo-European roots) + llyn, liquor.]

metheglin [m?'??gl?n]

[from Welsh meddyglyn, from meddyg healer (from Latin medicus medical) + llyn liquor]

njl - 27-4-2021 at 08:18
Quote:

Metheglin / meed?
me·theg·lin

[Welsh meddyglyn : meddyg, medicinal (from Latin medicus, from medr, to heal; see med- in Indo-European roots) + llyn, liquor.]

metheglin [m?'??gl?n]

[from Welsh meddyglyn, from meddyg healer (from Latin medicus medical) + llyn liquor]


Is there a reason you wrote this twice with slightly different wordings?

DraconicAcid - 27-4-2021 at 08:25

Quote: Originally posted by pneumatician  
oh yeah, I start with Mead, fermented honey alone. Mead or Metheglin is only a taste option, the base is fermented Honey with water.

"Vinegar" come from sour WINE, so "Vinegar" from honey is onother thing, a vegeto-animal "acetic acid"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead
Mead (/miːd/) is an alcoholic beverage created by fermenting honey with water, sometimes with various fruits, spices, grains, or hops.


Yes, we know. That's been said already. The question is why you would waste perfectly good (and expensive) mead or metheglin to try to get acetic acid, which is cheap and easily available.

It's like distilling alcohol and burning spices to provide the heat.

pneumatician - 27-4-2021 at 09:31

The problem here is vocabulary and definitions. The sour end liquid is called badly "vinegar" but it is not, you call clorate, clorite, hipoclorite... for diferent substances so here the same distintion is necessary??? something like "Honegar"?

so differents substances different reactions, no?

Honegar is a vegeto-animal substance, for your understanding, vegeto from the polen and animal from the gastric juices of bees... so honegar have acetic acid + HCL from the bees stomac???

we are in a gray-dark area of discovery???

DraconicAcid - 27-4-2021 at 09:41

Vinegar is not a substance- it is a mixture. It's still called vinegar in English, regardless of it's from wine, cider, beer, or mead (apple cider vinegar and malt vinegar- from beer- are actually fairly common). The acetic acid in all of them is identical, and doesn't care where it came from.

You are only in a dark-grey area because you're thinking like an alchemist, not like a chemist.

pneumatician - 27-4-2021 at 10:13

ignorance is ignorance, a dark area no matter if all thinking entities in the universe say the same. SulphIte is not SulphAte no matter if all thinking entities in the universe say this is "Vitriol" or one salt of X substance, metall or... :-)

tell me, please, some technical papers where is said, vinegar from wine is = to "vinegar" from honey, apples... or acid acetic is the same no matter from where come from...

I don't know about you, but I have a sense of taste, and they're starting to be different around here without going any further

DraconicAcid - 27-4-2021 at 10:34

Quote: Originally posted by pneumatician  
ignorance is ignorance, a dark area no matter if all thinking entities in the universe say the same. SulphIte is not SulphAte no matter if all thinking entities in the universe say this is "Vitriol" or one salt of X substance, metall or... :-)

Sulphite is not sulphate, but acetic acid is acetic acid.
Quote:
tell me, please, some technical papers where is said, vinegar from wine is = to "vinegar" from honey, apples... or acid acetic is the same no matter from where come from...

I don't know about you, but I have a sense of taste, and they're starting to be different around here without going any further


Vinegar from wine is not exactly equal to vinegar from honey or apples, obviously, however, they are all classified as vinegar in English. Just like merlot, pinot noir, and chardonnay are all considered "wine", even if they aren't identical (and French chardonnay isn't the same as Californian chardonnay, and neither are the same as Manitoba chardonnay).

However, all molecules of ethanol are identical (barring isotopic variance).

All molecules of acetic acid are identical. If you purify acetic acid from mead-vinegar, red wine vinegar, apple cider vinegar, it will be the same acetic acid. If it tastes different to you, then you didn't purify it enough. And that acetic acid will be identical to acetic acid made from the oxidation of acetaldehyde by dichromate, or the reaction of methylmagnesium bromide with carbon dioxide and acid, or by rhodium-catalyzed carbonylation of methanol.

This is a fundamental principle of chemistry. If you don't understand it, you don't understand chemistry,

Texium - 27-4-2021 at 10:34

What are you on about? If you make acetic acid from ethanol produced from honey it’s still just acetic acid... sure, in the raw state, there would be vastly different minor compounds in the mixture compared to vinegar produced from wine or from neutral spirit, and as a result it will taste different. That’s why you can buy many types of vinegar for cooking. They all impart different flavors. But the acetic acid that all of them contain is the same chemical compound, and if you were to purify and isolate it, it would be chemically indistinguishable. It’s not at all like sulfite vs sulfate like you’re trying to compare.

njl - 27-4-2021 at 10:54
Quote:

The problem here is vocabulary and definitions. The sour end liquid is called badly "vinegar" but it is not, you call clorate, clorite, hipoclorite... for diferent substances so here the same distintion is necessary??? something like "Honegar"?


It's odd how you simultaneously expect people to give you a good answer while literally making up your own terminology on the spot (unless you're talking about the snake oil medicine honegar).

Quote:

tell me, please, some technical papers where is said, vinegar from wine is = to "vinegar" from honey, apples... or acid acetic is the same no matter from where come from...
Quote:

This is a fundamental principle of chemistry.


If you reject/ignore this principle that acetic acid from any source is theoretically the same, I am genuinely curious as to how useful you find this forum since as far as I know most members accept it as fact.

Amos - 27-4-2021 at 13:51

pneumatician doesn't even know what vinegar is, before going on to tell others they're wrong for calling it such.

Even for beginnings, this is inane. Nothing resembling scientific discourse could result from this thread, not without altogether ignoring the original poster and having a discussion between other users.

pneumatician - 28-4-2021 at 10:07

Relax guys, nobody here are talking about 100% PURE acetic acid.

read what njl say in the "distilling vinegar" thread:

This has been discussed before on the forum and elsewhere. While acetic acid and water do not formally have an azeotrope, it is extremely difficult to achieve good separation by distillation without a long packed column. Glacial acetic acid is not practically obtainable this way. Starting from 10 percent vinegar (already more concentrated than the 5 percent in most brands) you would need several distillations just to get up to 25 percent, and the return on each distillation drops as the concentration increases. This is why most GAA is made from acetate and an acid (usually sulfuric or phosphoric).

So according njl the maximun one hobbyist can get with distillations is 25% acetic acid. If you want to believe in 25% PURE acetic acid and 75% PURE distilled water "mixture" is your personal fantasy.

in others words, if this 25% acetic acid come from wine or honey the 75% of the end product is =??? pure distilled water???

sorry but I don't want to lost more time in absurdities and less so when no one has ever distilled vinegar from Honey.

Texium - 28-4-2021 at 10:54

Ok, then no: if you distill vinegar made from honey or wine, you won’t end up with pure acetic acid and water as the distillate. Especially not if you’re just doing a simple distillation. There will inevitably be other volatile compounds in the mixture that will co-distill with the acetic acid and water. Moreover, some less volatile organic substances will likely be steam-distilled out of the mixture. So the hypothetical “75%” that isn’t acetic acid is mostly water, but would also contain a complex mixture of byproducts. If you want to know what all is present, that’s a question for someone with a GC/MS once you have your vinegar distillate in hand. I still don’t understand the point of this thread...

Big Boss - 28-4-2021 at 12:54

It doesn't matter what your starting fermented drink is, the process and the end product is (mostly) the same as zts pointed out.
Cider, wine, mead, beer: ferment it further with acetobacter until you have vinegar which can be used as is, or distilled to produce white vinegar.

Amos - 28-4-2021 at 13:03

Quote: Originally posted by Big Boss  
It doesn't matter what your starting fermented drink is, the process and the end product is (mostly) the same as zts pointed out.
Cider, wine, mead, beer: ferment it further with acetobacter until you have vinegar which can be used as is, or distilled to produce white vinegar.


White vinegar isn't itself distilled, it's merely prepared from a dilute solution of distilled alcohol. If making a shelf-stable, colorless and neutrally-flavored vinegar by any amount of distillation from fermented material was possible, they would already be doing that and getting fewer pots dirty. And we chemists with brains would still be buying glacial acetic acid or at least acetate salts. Not distill until a strong honey vinegar.

[Edited on 4-28-2021 by Amos]

njl - 28-4-2021 at 14:12

I am speaking from my experience with this vinegar. If you asked me to bring you vinegar, I would bring you that. I've also used similar products from the hardware store. I don't know what your actual point is, or what you're trying to do. If you want GAA buy it or use any one of the preps available online. If you want vinegar... there's vinegar.