Sciencemadness Discussion Board

THIS WILL BE ILLEGAL IN FEBURARY 2021 (EU)

NaK - 15-1-2021 at 03:56

Just a heads up:
*Nitromethane > 16%
*Sulfuric acid > 15%

Nitric acid > 3% (not new)
Hydrogen peroxide > 12% (not new)
Sodium/Potassium chlorate/perchlorate > 40% (not new)


will be banned from sale to private individuals within the EU in february.

So if you need one of these you would need to get them NOW

Further reading:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/DE/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A...
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:C...


[Edited on 15-1-2021 by NaK]

mackolol - 15-1-2021 at 06:00

I don't see no sulfuric acid in this document.

outer_limits - 15-1-2021 at 06:03

It's in the link, eng ver: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A...

Sulphuric acid above 15% will be not available for public

NaK - 15-1-2021 at 07:50

Someone told these fuckers you can make apex with sulfuric acid as catalyst. No one told them that you can use ANY FUCKING ACID for this purpose. This could be detremental to amateur chemistry as we know it, one of the absolutely most basic precursor you could think of. Now newbies will have to deal with 15% sulfuric acid, distilling it and possible hurting themselves in the process.


You can concentrate sulfuric acid by heating the crap out of it up to around 70-80%, so anyone dedicated enough could get a large glass vessel and concentrate the acid. But 90% will be quite hard

chemship1978 - 15-1-2021 at 08:14

Anyone in dire need of sulfuric acid or nitromethane can hit me up, I have some in stock and will be selling it for future to come.

nitro-genes - 15-1-2021 at 08:20

Amateur chemistry is now officially dead in Europe, I really wish amateur chemists would be able to legally fight these new regulations, though the fear-inducing arguments of terrorism will prevail anyway. Looking at the causes of deaths statistically it is FAR more likely to be killed by lightning than terrorism. I think it boils down to the fact that for a scientist it is "Publish or Perish", while for policy makers and security organizations it is "make new rules or perish". Sort of a hidden unemployment, obsessing over and regulating things that hold no reality to logic or the underlying statistics. IMO, many of these regulations when put on a logically and statistically weighted social-security-economic balance would actually prove to be detrimental, though the underlying detrimental consequences are not easily measured. In the best case, many regulations seem totally arbitrary. In the Netherlands, at least 3 organisations seem to be involved in preventing terrorism, The AIVD, the MIVD and the NCTV, the latter one supposedly having put forward their "vision" regarding dangerous chemicals. We are probably talking about 4000 people working on terrorism and related!!!! With such a low terrorism threat in the Netherlands I really wonder what it is exactly what all these people do every day, except being bored out of their minds. :) https://www.indymedia.nl/node/29711.

Even worse: They have been so bored by the lack of any meaningful thing to do that the MILITARY intelligence community (MIVD) has started using their developed strategies and weapons (social media influencing) against their own citizens. https://tweakers.net/nieuws/174614/leger-verzamelde-informat...
A somewhat musing thought is that this effect is maybe quite akin to how some auto-immune diseases develop as well, where the immune system starts to attack its own host.

Strangely though, while this is arguably one of the most frightening news articles in decades, the media was directed towards a group of 40 children rioting in Noord-Velzen, for which the mayor declared a STATE OF EMERGENCY!!! https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2020/12/21/noodbevel-in-velsen-noo... Coincidence?


https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/documenten/publicaties/2021/01/...
Very recently, Dutch parliament has resigned due to injustices done by members of our tax service, of which supposedly most members of parliament were barely informed.
Sooooooo, when are we going to see some public consequences for the MIVD that willingly and knowingly violated the Dutch constitution, undermining the very foundation of our democracy?!?! After this scandal of the MIVD, there should be multiple resignations of the people involved, a reorganization of the internal structure and laws and regulations should be carefully examined to prevent these kind of atrocities in the future. But no...nothing is heard at all...but parliament is resigning now. :(

I'll repeat it again: HIDDEN UNEMPLOYMENT! Politicians, PLEASE, cut their budgets!!!

Although...Party member of the VVD, Halbe Zijlstra tried... https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/node/2368046 He was quickly made into a security risk by having lied about a supposed meeting with Vladimir Poetin, meaning the end of his political carreer. https://www.ad.nl/dossier-aftreden-halbe-zijlstra/rutte-erke... IMO, he might still be stalked by the AIVD till this very day... https://myprivacy.dpgmedia.nl/consent/?siteKey=V9f6VUvlHxq9w... In the case of Halbe Zijlstra it might have been a pure conflict of interest and if this would ever be proven the case ABSOLUTELY unacceptable!!!

Same story for secratary Grapperhaus, who dismissed an AIVD report concerning the security risks of introducing the Huawei 5G network in 2019. https://www.nu.nl/internet/5962413/grapperhaus-deelde-5g-adv... Only a year later, a story became the headline in the media abouth Grapperhaus violating the 1.5 meter distance rule, nearly meaning the end of Grapperhaus' political carreer. https://www.ad.nl/politiek/grapperhaus-biedt-alsnog-excuses-... Coincidence?

Another example is this documentary from Zembla: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=DYUV9mF95Os, in which Thierry Baudet (another Dutch politician) is being accused of being under Russian influence and deemed a security risk. Although I absolutely disagree with the policial course and visions of Baudet, it does raise the question if members of the parliament should not be better protected against an organisation that is invisible, unsupervised and unbalanced and thus can not be held accountable for their actions. This seemingly increasing trend towards a conflict of interests between members of the parliament (who can and are held accountable themselves!) and intelligence organizations is very concerning in a time where everyone's lives are digitally accessible.

Although this is all unproven, it is an interesting detail that Thierry Baudets political party has its roots in the "pirate party" who's main political agenda was to put a brake on governmental privacy violations and "big data". It could be that whereas the pirate party did not gain much support politically, Baudets charisma is actually attracting voters and is deemed a security risk again. First being accused of being pro-Russia, recently he is portraited as a Nazi in the media. Haha, noone seems to see how strange and opposing these accusations actually are apparently. :D Coincidence?

From personal experience (and similar media stories): These are the most disgusting people I've ever encountered, lying, smearing, manipulating, seeding and wielding their dual standards like the sword of justice. They hold views that are the almost exact opposite of those held by scientists, that favour progress, openness and the truth. https://joop.bnnvara.nl/nieuws/aivd-intimideert-wetenschappe...
https://www.parool.nl/columns-opinie/de-aivd-infiltreert-mee...

Anyway...people wonder why chemistry studies are such an unpopular choice for students nowadays. Mark my words...a total fireworks ban will follow as well. Reason? You can bet these pathological control-freaks from law enforcement have sleepless nights about the fact that a total ban on on chlorates and perchlorates is not possible yet. Why? Because legal fireworks still contain these oxidizers, so they are hard to forbid completely and in their minds comprises an unacceptable security risk.

[Edited on 15-1-2021 by nitro-genes]

mackolol - 15-1-2021 at 08:48

That's why I'm going to make myself a permission or license, because it's the only way to fully play with chemistry.

Belowzero - 15-1-2021 at 10:28

Guess I'll stockpile some more, really annoying because I don't want to store a whole bunch of SA.
Especially since when banned it could cause legal difficulties, certainly when stocking many liters.

Speaking of which; any suggestions for long time storage ?
HDPE bottles seem to hold for some years but not quite permanent.
Its often the cap that gives in, I also noticed a slight discoloration.
I recently obtained quite a few Scott duran bottles in various sizes but they are relatively expensive when all they do is stand on a shelf for years.

Also, I agree with you nitro-genes.
The one thing that we need is checks and balances on government control not on citizens, slowly but steadily we are moving to a total nanny state, giving away one more piece of freedom every day.

"Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."


[Edited on 15-1-2021 by Belowzero]

Jome - 15-1-2021 at 11:03

It is a bit infuriating that all this happens by the method of a thousand gradual restrictions by politicians who want to signal that they're "doing something". They take this easier route rather than coming up with a thought-through policy that would yield actual results.

It is just a question of time until all access we have now goes down the drain. It is "cottage industrial" chemistry that interests me the most for that reason; a basic electrochemical cell, a steel retort and a few other devices built from difficult to restrict components, and plenty of useful reagents can be made from difficult to restrict base chemicals.

macckone - 15-1-2021 at 11:56

It isn't the end of home chemistry.
It just moves the goal posts.

This isn't exactly news. There was another post about it month ago.

Belowzero - 15-1-2021 at 12:56

Quote: Originally posted by macckone  
It isn't the end of home chemistry.
It just moves the goal posts.

This isn't exactly news. There was another post about it month ago.


Exactly the reason I am working on trying to scale the contact process down to a benchtop level.
I think it was more of a general remark, since this is a downward spiral and is certainly not the last chemical that will be banned.
Those goal posts will move further , thats for sure.

[Edited on 15-1-2021 by Belowzero]

clearly_not_atara - 15-1-2021 at 15:01

Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes  
for a scientist it is "Publish or Perish" and for policy makers it is "make new rules or perish".
This explains a lot of dumb rules that have been passed in the last decade

Johnny Cappone - 15-1-2021 at 16:17

Quote: Originally posted by NaK  
Just a heads up:
*Nitromethane > 16%
*Sulfuric acid > 15%

Nitric acid > 3% (not new)


will be banned from sale to private individuals within the EU in february.


I am extremely saddened for european amateur chemists for this.
Will you still be able to buy 32-37% sulfuric acid solution for automotive batteries? Concentrating H2SO4 by boiling the solution is one of the most unpleasant processes I have ever had to perform, but it works and allows me to continue to have access to this essential reagent in chemical practice.

I read the previous threads about these new regulations that will take effect. It seems that it will be possible to obtain a license or something that would allow not to suffer from these restrictions, am I right?

Unfortunately, I see no signs of improvement. As the poet Heinrich Heine said, "Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen". Those that prevent us from having access to such universally useful reagents, even if no accusations fall on us, will one day prevent us from discussing their properties and how to synthesize them. It's only a matter of time.

NaK - 15-1-2021 at 16:53

Nope we won't. If it's enforced and the previous directive was then the highest concentration will be 15%.

It will be like in the GDR: if you want to get something you have to know someone. If you know a car mechanic you can get 40% sulfuric acid!! Just imagine the feeling of finally holding 40% sulfuric acid in your shivering hands. It will be amazing!

NaK - 15-1-2021 at 17:01

Here is their bucket list. Every 5 years they will ban some of these compounds:

Hexamine
Acetone
Potassium nitrate
Sodium nitrate
Calcium nitrate
Calcium ammonium nitrate
Magnesium, powders
Magnesium nitrate hexahydrate
Aluminium, powders

I will here and now bet that the next ban will be either acetone or the nitrates.

I'm setting a reminder for 5 years

[Edited on 16-1-2021 by NaK]

macckone - 15-1-2021 at 19:27

Hexamine fuel tablets are being replaced already.
Acetone - heat calcium acetate or oxidize isopropyl alcohol
Nitrates are already restricted
Magnesium and aluminum are easy to powder.

The nitrate restriction is easy to get around electricity + air.
Any fetrilizer can be extracted.

We already have numerous methods of getting sulfuric acid.
Concentrating it from 15% to 30% is easier than to 80%.
And the final 98% is even harder. But the did it in the 1500s.

woelen - 16-1-2021 at 03:48

In some countries of the EU it will be possible to obtain a license for using H2SO4 or HNO3 at higher concentrations, but this also is limited. HNO3 can now be licensed up to any concentration, after Feb. 1, 2021 this will be limited to 10% by weight. H2SO4 will be limited to 40% by weight.

So, without license: 3% and 15%, with license: 10% and 40%. Higher concentrations are not allowed for private persons, not at all!

I personally think that this restriction on H2SO4 is much worse than the other restrictions we already have. H2SO4 really is a basic chemical, needed for many experiments, much more so than any of the other forbidden ones. E.g. the fact that I cannot obtain KClO4 and NaClO4 is not really bad (unless you do pyrotechnics), other perchlorates are still available, albeit at much higher price. But still affordable in quantities useful for doing experiments with nice transition metal complexes and that kind of things. For H2SO4, however, I see no easy replacement. Having no access to that will really limit what you can do. The still available HCl, HClO4 and H3PO4 are no replacement for the versatile H2SO4!

NaK - 16-1-2021 at 06:10

It all depends on if you're willing to break the law I guess. There are a lot of people here who have no problem with that, for them it will be significantly harder. For everyone else chemistry will be very limited to almost impossible.

Fyndium - 16-1-2021 at 07:09

There will be suppliers for sulfuric acid in the grey market, for sure. If a price is paid, you know very well you can get your hands on pretty much anything you desire.

All of the restricted stuff can be purchased as a company, and in most EU countries it is actually trivial to establish one. For the most simple cases, it only needs filing a singe application that costs less than 100€ and you get the business number in few days. If not personally, someone can make a covert business out of it by purchasing large amounts of stuff and selling them under the counter. They register the sales, yes, but if you even attempt to keep low profile, it will be very difficult to tell where it has ended to. To be honest, when I heard about this, I floated a thought about this myself. For the foreseeable future, I can get a 25L canister of 98% SA to my doorstep with one phone call in a day or two. Oh, well, make it an IBC straight away, the price per L just dropped by 70%.

It just makes things more complicated for the amateur, and for the most part, illegal. Sadly, I have always thought that practicing chemistry requires breaking many restrictions, for example distillation of alcohol is basically illegal in every developed country, it doesn't count if you intend to consume it or use it as a solvent.

These restrictions mostly keep the lower deciles of imbeciles and idiots out of the picture, and reduce the amount of acid attacks and other subhuman crap that is happening and I respect the restriction for that part, but I do very strongly oppose that even with a license you are not able to buy more than dilute acid. This has a potential to kill off the rest of the amateur chemists.

Worst part is, it makes ordinary people criminals, and allows the judicial machine to grind them to pieces and possibly cause major issues in legitimate society. Places where any sort of criminal record is an issue. The case is similar to cannabis: it has been long shown to be less harmful than alcohol, but touch it, and you'll get record that prevents employing into many places for good. And, prepare for surprise visits from the police, once something hits the news somewhere, because your name just came up from a list of known people that have handled "precursors", hence being potential threats.

Sadly, for the decade, I've witnessed a clear pattern on EU banning basically everything it can. At first EU only loosened national restrictions which I was very happy, but then it took 180 turn and all of a sudden ordinary stuff I thought was self-evident, got under total ban.

Oh, btw, just to make things even more totalitarian, EU has chased anti-encryption laws since 2017. They want access to all citizen's data and make it illegal to encrypt anything without a back-door.

I've really thought of eventually moving into some third world country, like China, Russia, Libya, North Korea or something like that. They might have ban on everything as well, but they'll look away if you pay the bribe.

[Edited on 16-1-2021 by Fyndium]

TheMrbunGee - 16-1-2021 at 08:39

Lead battery electrolyte is ~35% H2SO4, wonder how that will be managed. I can buy it at any gas station right now.

NaK - 16-1-2021 at 09:31

Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee  
Lead battery electrolyte is ~35% H2SO4, wonder how that will be managed. I can buy it at any gas station right now.


Then I would stock up because they likely won't restock. You will then have to take your batteries to a car mechanic who will do it for you

TheMrbunGee - 16-1-2021 at 09:58

Quote: Originally posted by NaK  
Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee  
Lead battery electrolyte is ~35% H2SO4, wonder how that will be managed. I can buy it at any gas station right now.


Then I would stock up because they likely won't restock. You will then have to take your batteries to a car mechanic who will do it for you


So car mechanics will have to get the permits.

Well I have about 4l of 96%, It will suffice for a while. I guess I'll deal with this problem when I run out, no where to stockpile liters of acid.

It sucks. Idiots and terrorists ruining it for me since terrorists and idiots. :/

Fyndium - 16-1-2021 at 11:36

Car mechanics usually work as a business, and the ban does not apply to businesses. They can still buy any strength, any amount.

Corrosive Joeseph - 16-1-2021 at 12:22

I have worked in garages on and off for 20 years and a couple of my closest friends are qualified mechanics.... Not one of them has ever used sulfuric acid, batteries are topped up with de-ionised water.

Many modern batteries are sealed and maintenance free these days with a life expectancy of about 5 years..... There are so many electrical systems on a new car that it is standard practice to fit a brand new battery and be done with it.



/CJ

Fyndium - 17-1-2021 at 04:27

There are businesses that specialize in battery business. The ones I've visited, had actually an IBC containers of battery acid hanging around, and actually, because of the very low price (50c a liter) as asked, I went there with a friend to inquire if I could buy some in bulk to my own canisters. The business owner just said, yeah, but he wants a business number because some idiots were using the acid to make energetics.

Sulfuric acid is used in very large array of things, including metal treatment, anodizing, as a synthesis feedstock in various business and industry levels, cleaning agent, electrolyte, etc.

Tech may change, but sulfuric acid will likely remain to the foreseeable future.

BJ68 - 17-1-2021 at 06:10

Topic: battery acid....

There is not only one issue involved with that topic....at least in Germany...or of you visit Germany by car...

Reason for that according to the local law in Germany what will be in force from first of February there is no possibility to get a permit for using the higher concentrations which are possible according to the EU-regulation, that means concentration of more than 15% is illegal to use, to own or to import.

Here the German law: https://www.buzer.de/AusgStG.htm

In §10 there is the phrase that you can not get permits and in §13 there is the phrase "bereitstellt, verbringt, besitzt oder verwendet" which translated in "provides, spends, owns or uses".
§2 Definitions of this law relegates to "Article 3 Definitions" of "Regulation (EU) 2019/1148" where you can find this phrases:
[...]
(5)‘introduction’ means the act of bringing a substance into the territory of a Member State, irrespective of its destination within the Union, whether from another Member State or from a third country, under any customs procedure, as defined in Regulation (EU) No 952/2013 of the European Parliament and of the Council (10) including transit;
(6) ‘use’ means use as defined in point (24) of Article 3 of Regulation (EC) No 1907/2006;
[...]

Point (24) of Article 3 of Regulation (EC) No 1907/2006 reads as:
[...]24. use: means any processing, formulation, consumption, storage, keeping, treatment, filling into containers, transfer from one container to another, mixing, production of an article or any other utilisation;
[...]

and using sulfuric acid even in a closed car battery is "utilisation" for me....

There is neither no minimum amount in the German law nor in the EU-regulation and there are no exceptions made, that means that the smallest volume is illegal....and even for other local country laws with permits there is the problem, that you as car owner do not have a permit for using sulfuric acid with more than 15%. Car batteries are using a higher concentration and if you charge them the concentration gets even higher....so you as car owner are a producer of sulfuric acid with higher concentration as 15% and without permit for that.


bj68


Edit: That is the problem if bureaucrats with no chemical background are making laws which regulate chemicals....






[Edited on 17-1-2021 by BJ68]

Fyndium - 17-1-2021 at 09:47

I've thought about this matter since it was introduced. The battery acid has generally around 37% acid, which fits with the 40% license limit, but the fact is that it is somewhat accessible to general public through batteries. It is likely that one could obtain a series of batteries and "refill" them every once a while to get stockpile of acid.

On the other hand, they probably acknowledge themselves that this restriction is most effective at preventing crime of passion, where one rushes to store to buy a bottle of acid to throw it onto someone. The people who are willing to go to lengths are merely slowed a little.

On the other hand, the company effect can actually work against it. People buying one 1L bottle for 50€ can look more suspicious than a business buying a 25L canister for 200€ or a full barrel for 500€, and even if not, the incentive to buy the canister is very high because it gets you 25 times more stuff for 4 times the price, or in a barrel, 200 times for 10 times the price.

My friend at drag racing told their team bought four barrels of nitromethane due to a cheap price, this was total of 800 liters. As a fuel, not that much, but definitely can cause some major worry if it were to end up in malicious hands.

NaK - 17-1-2021 at 10:39

A system for permitting higher concentrations than the limit is explicitly ruled out in Germany.

Possessing one of these restricted compounds as a private person even without intention to make explosives is a criminal offense punishable up to 3 years of prison or fine. The attempt is punishable too, so you're commiting a crime if you even try to concentrate it or buy it.


These people are insane



[Edited on 17-1-2021 by NaK]

BJ68 - 17-1-2021 at 11:22

I have learned PTA (pharmaceutic-technical-assistant) so I have the "Sachkunde" according to the German chemistry laws and in February I will renew it in a one day course (for 650 Euro), because they changed the law that you have this license renewed every six years, this will be the step one on the way to secure my chemical supply chain.

I am working now at a university @ Switzerland full time.....and was thinking to rent a room for making a photographic laboratory.....here.
Last week I phoned with a friend of mine @ my hometown in Bavaria who has a bicycle-repair shop (own little company). There is a flat which I can rent, two rooms, bath and small kitchen, around 50 to 60 square meters. So I will found my own little business for making my photographic things see the thread in https://illumina-chemie.de/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=4590 because here in CH in my bathroom the size of the room is to small e.g. I tried here Kirlian photography with this Tesla coil https://illumina-chemie.de/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=4821&... and I can count on my five fingers until I get a electric shock. So I need place.....I want to formulate developers, photographic kits and one big issue will be replacement of potassium dichromate in gum printing what I tried before the sunset date of that compound in the EU see https://illumina-chemie.de/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=4096&... even there is a nice way to decontaminate the Cr(VI) to Cr(III) with ascorbic acid https://illumina-chemie.de/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=4201&...
I looked up the cost of authorization for this purposes and with no guarantee for the outcome you have to invest about 10000 to 15000 Euro for lawyers, dossiers, tests and fees to file a application for that.
There are ways to replace potassium and ammonium dichromate but there is much experimentation needed see https://www.alternativephotography.com/gum-diazo-printing-v1... what will be one topic for me.....
There are much more other ideas in my head...but they are stuck, because as private citizen you will be more and more cut from the chemical supply chain....but for me there is one advantage...I will keep my job in Switzerland and make the thing in my holidays or if this will run (and generate income) I can reduce here to 75% and put more effort in it. The nice thing is I am not forced to generate income with this idea.....my health insurance and so on will be paid from my "normal" job.....and even if I have hard times it´s no problem for me...

bj68

Fyndium - 17-1-2021 at 11:45

Quote: Originally posted by NaK  
Possessing one of these restricted compounds as a private person even without intention to make explosives is a criminal offense punishable up to 3 years of prison or fine. The attempt is punishable too, so you're commiting a crime if you even try to concentrate it or buy it.

These people are insane


I knew Germany is a silly country. Here the maximum sanction for illegal precursors is a fine.

Generally though, at least in my country, very many sanctions include from fine to 2 years in prison, but most of the offenses, unless they are very severe in their class, are acquitted with a small fine, and the prison term always comes as a conditional, meaning if you don't do crimes that require a mandatory prison time, you will never serve any time. The precedents are also very strict, so if one case has served fine, all other cases must be served the same.

In some US states you get mandatory life sentences for not flushing the toilet thrice by causing common distress.

NaK - 17-1-2021 at 12:15

It is the same penalty range you would get for possessing explosives in germany. And you are right, if you didn't plan to make explosives or kill people you are likely not going to prison.

If you are dealing with a bad judge or have a bad attorney or just bad luck you can still get a prison sentence on probation, and even worse "Possession of explosive precursors" on your record for owning a bit of sulfuric acid.

nimgoldman - 15-2-2021 at 07:13

As for the sulfuric, what about Cleamen 420 ? That is basically 96-98% H2SO4. Will the company stop selling the drain cleaner? Or will it be restricted to professional cleaning services only?

I agree these laws are insane. They seem to be made by politicians, not actual experts, having only terrorism and drug manufacture in mind, completely forgetting about normal people (the 99.9%) like metal refiners, amateur chemists, plant extractors etc. etc.
From all the possible solutions, a general ban/regulation is usually the worst one. It does not solve anything, only creates more obstacles for normal people.

Some possible workarounds (?):

Fyndium - 15-2-2021 at 13:00

By the law they shouldn't be supplied to public, and they shouldn't be stored so they are accessible to people not supposed to handle them by their occupation.

Actual outcome? Some companies will unknowingly supply products even not knowing they contain stuff that is restricted now, and in the future. An enterpreneur is not same as a professional, and as ordinary people that are scared of dihydrogen monoxide establish startups, they aren't likely to figure out all the details, and may accidentally sell whatever suits their business.

Then there are suppliers who will supply stuff if you pay. No questions asked, just pay a little premium. Then there are friends and friends of friends, who can help you get stuff. The list goes on. If it's not considered morally or ethically bad or is not sanctioned very severely, and if there is an economical incentive, people tend to not follow the law by every letter, if they feel convenient doing otherwise.

Easiest way is to set up a business. In most countries it requires only filling a form, can nowadays be done online and in some instances can even be free. For that, you can do your chemistry, metal refining, anodizing, hair/textile bleaching, cleaning, extracting and open your drains.

Anyway, experience has shown that pretty much anything can be figured out, if one is willing to put enough effort and time for it.

nimgoldman - 16-2-2021 at 00:02

The problem is you have to provide reason for why you need that certain chemical for your business.

Then you have either make up sh** or just pretend you are producing something that necessarily requires that chemical.

The bigger problem though is that we are already en route to banning basic lab equipment, like flasks and beakers.

* rant alert *

This philosophy is extremely toxic because it tramples on personal freedom: Doing what you like as long as you don't hurt anyone else 's rights in the process.

They are pre-punishing you for what you *could* do even though you have no such intents and that goes againts the idea of the law in the first place.

They are just stacking more and more exceptions to our every right (incl. basic human rights) until there is really no freedom left, no air the breathe in an atmosphere of fear, where everyone is a suspect and no one knows what's still legal, promoting self-censorship of our speech and behavior.

They try to control free market in the name of security, though no one really back-checks whether the laws actually work (they don't), so they keep adding new laws to solve issues created by the old laws.

BTW a terrorist can still easily obtain e.g. hexamine, hell just mix formaldehyde and ammonia! Want acetone? Just order canysters from China to some non-EU country and smuggle that into eurozone. If someone is really dedicated to blow a house, these laws are toothless. But they really REALLY harm amateurs and people who need to experiment before starting a small business.

This is even more hurting since Europe benefits from chemists who started as "amateurs" doing lots of free experimentation - think of all the great German, French, Polish etc. chemists. They couldn't even start doing the great science with today's restrictions.
Today everything is getting institutionalised, requiring some kind of "license", "registration" or "title".

It's like Europe completely forgot the very values it stands on.

Science is for all people, regardless of gender, race, nation, religion etc. I believe EU's restrictions are crime against our very nature, treating wide public as just a mass of consumers or what.

Don't get me wrong, I already have a registered business, but I also already been asked for hearing by bureaucrats and visited by customs officers - they get me to sign a paper that they can check on me any time in the future just because purchasing a single piece of glassware as an individual - and now I feel like I lost a huge bit of freedom ... and that sucks to say the least.

[Edited on 16-2-2021 by nimgoldman]

[Edited on 16-2-2021 by nimgoldman]

Fyndium - 16-2-2021 at 09:08

Quote: Originally posted by nimgoldman  
The problem is you have to provide reason for why you need that certain chemical for your business.

Then you have either make up sh** or just pretend you are producing something that necessarily requires that chemical.


Prove, to who? They don't ask anything, just provide a business number and they likely check that it's listed in the database and you're good to go. Some specific countries, like Germany, who like to make rules for the fun of it, can have some weird trade chamber stuff going on, but haven't heard it elsewhere. But, if someone happens to ask, you can just state anything that it's used for. Proving is mostly for individuals anyway.
Quote: Originally posted by nimgoldman  
The bigger problem though is that we are already en route to banning basic lab equipment, like flasks and beakers.


Lab equipment is not so much needed in illegal operations as chemicals are. A quick look on any busted lab pics shows that the biggest suppliers for cookery equipment are pyrex, mason jar inc and tefal, not forgetting the most common reaction vessel, the notorious 10-liter polyethene bucket. Flasks are nice to have, but not necessary for doing bad stuff. Many countries and states have banned them already though, so the nonsense have been out there for decades. Look for australia and texas, as examples. Speaking of australia, there was this one guy who ordered custom made stainless steel equipment and cooked x in scale that made breaking bad look like beginner's bakery. Vacuum distillation can easily be done in all-ss equipment, and with bit of lessons from brewing and distilling guys, you can incorporate a lot of glass to see what's going on, and welding with a tig welder is actually very easy, I got it right after an hour, and been since welding a lot. Ok, so now we need to ban brewing, tig welders and stainless steel. Don't forget vacuum pumps, they're the gateway to chemical crime. Damn, but they can still turn out an aspirator pump from brass stock. Ban lathes and mills, too!

I would never give an open warrant for anyone to come look for anything.

Ordering acetone from china is a bit exaggerated as it's been always one of the most accessible solvent and the very reason it wasn't the one that got banned instead of the two other reagents concerning it's feared abuse. On the other hand, the guys who cook big time, order their stuff already from China in shipping containers. See you in Holland or Mexico.

Restrictions primarily hit on idiots and (idiot) terrorists. Those bastards who throw acid, and all kind of low-level terrorists. Just recently people got busted for ordering stuff that was obviously suspicious. I don't know, but as a more initiated chemist it sometimes appear that many restrictions are worthless because you can easily make this from that and so on, and here we go, around the bans, but it appears that the scum who misuse these seem to always go the easy way, and if you get it off the shelves, they stop doing these.

Perhaps the mastermind criminals quickly figure out that instead of blowing something up they can make a lot of money by utilizing their skill in some other area.

clearly_not_atara - 16-2-2021 at 10:43

The acid throwing is terrible, but it's kind of hard for me to figure how you're going to prevent people from being able to find some kind of corrosive liquid they can throw on people. I mean, bleach still exists. Ditto hair dye. And if you're willing to mix stuff in a jar (workups are the hard part, after all) you can get pretty close to aqua regia from pool acid (usually HCl) and fertilizer.

Fyndium - 16-2-2021 at 11:18

There are lots of stuff that would prove very nasty when got onto skin, but I find it surprising how big of a brake a simple googling is to most people. The saying "don't advertise it so the idiots won't try it" keeps it's place.

Like stated, if you just can't buy something ready from the closest convenience store, it will keep 98% of people away from it.

nimgoldman - 17-2-2021 at 04:51

In my country, businesses were already closed for they were selling growing supplies that *could* be used to grow marijuana. Not joking!

In my country, just hte fact you have all supplies you *could* use to make something illegal is already assumed an illegal activity.

They don't close professional labs, no, but anyone just looking suspicious is already at danger of prosecution and his properties being seized by the state.

I could be pessimistic, but even though I am not doing anything bad, but over the years doing amateur chem, I am at constant fear of authorities and it already takes a toll on my health :(

Fyndium - 17-2-2021 at 09:46

Same here, but once it hits the prosecutor's table, the stuff is returned at once. Got experience on that. In court at least they will have to prove factual evidence that the stuff is intended for illegitimate acts. The police tends to hit some general charge of causing danger to the public in order to create a warrant, and they seize - depending if they consult a professional or not - everything or the interesting stuff. Merely possessing a selection of reagents that could be mixed to make something illegal does not prove intent, but if the circumstantial evidence stronly suggests - by the court's consideration - that there is an illegitimate intent behind them, the charge may fly. A guy was found with large variety of stuff and cut blanks and caps for pipe bombs and some nitrates and stuff, so the intent was shown, but for mere nitrate possession it will not.

There was a case where an mdma precursor ester, which was not on any list, was designated as solely suitable and useful for drug manufacture and had no other recorded legal uses whatsoever, and hence the basis for intent was shown. Other cases generally just include notes, plans or other documentation of intent, coupled with materials suitable, so the charging is much more easier. Some consider it along the lines that "a lab equipment or chemical that ordinary citizen does not usually possess, is a good indication of intent to manufacture illegal substances", which is more than ridiculous, because it basically states that any hobby that is unordinary, is a potential crime.

I'm not personally too fearful of the legal outcome, I'm much more worried if the chain reaction starts when someone suspects or sees something, and suddenly there are the full strength of my local PD, fire dept and em'cy personnel on my property carrying out everything and anything they deem suspicious. Later, it will be cleared, unless they have destroyed part of the stuff testing out if it's explosive or psychotropic, but the impact it would have on my neighbors, landlord, locals, etc is not cleared with paper that states "no crime committed, investigation ends". Also, the sentences in my country are so lame that unless I'd be making actual real hard drugs, I'll likely get away with little fine, even for the more grave mishaps, like illegal precursors or lack of safety. It really takes some effort to end up in actual prison here. Not that I do, what I mean is I primarily do things based on what's safe, what I like to do, and then look how the law adapts to it. For example distilling ethanol is illegal without license that can only be obtained by an industrial plant, hence only way to distill ethanol is.. to just stfu and do it.

There was also a cannabis case when they tried to make a prejudicate to make selling cannabis growing equipment illegal as a drug offense, but the massive trial was dropped at the first hearing when the judge just told the prosecutor to gtfo, and the appeals signed on that. So, selling growing equipment remained legal by court's mandate, but little did it help to those small businesses that were already raided and shut down. Instead of getting real people on court, they should first make a pre-trial evaluation whether something can be really charged, and then start the crusade.

Some countries have civil forfeiture which can be used to seize all crime related property to the state if certain circumstances are met. Drive a car while possessing pot - car confiscated. Do something illegal in property - property confiscated. Living in such a place kinda sucks. Some european countries also have an anti money laundering acts which give a very vague charge that funds can be seized if they are likely originated from criminal activity, and no sentence is required in order to fulfill seizure. Kind of, a person earns legal money and savings and sells something illegal, he can get his whole property seized unless he can explicitly prove they are from legal origins.

[Edited on 17-2-2021 by Fyndium]

Xanax - 17-5-2021 at 11:58

Whats next to ban, acetone, sodium hydroxide?

Terrorists will still get the chemicals they need, even if its banned. They buy anyway stolen high explosives from the military or the construction/mining industry. They just destroy for us chemistry-interested geeks, who will do even more dangerous experiments to get exotic chemicals! I dont even think you can buy "The little chemistry box" anymore...

I wish it was the 60-ies...

Fyndium - 21-5-2021 at 08:50

Quote: Originally posted by Xanax  
Whats next to ban, acetone, sodium hydroxide?


They are already banned in many countries. Canada introduced an act that classifies acetone as registered chemical, with exception of small sales of few liters at a sale max. I have never seen it sold in larger than 1L bottles anyway. I wonder how many barrels the bad guys need to make the dreaded thing they are so afraid of, when 99% of the cases have involved amounts in two digit gram scale. It sounds more like "let's ban something because a new 5-year plan is ahead" - kind of stuff.