Sciencemadness Discussion Board - ammonium nitrate to nitric acid and ammonia? with phosphoric acid catalyst!

ammonium nitrate to nitric acid and ammonia? with phosphoric acid catalyst!

Fluorite - 8-11-2020 at 00:27

Is there a cheap way to make nitric acid and ammonia from ammonium nitrate?
Electrolysis can be tricky and complicated (btw can I use gold to electrolyse sulfuric acid with no chlorides?)

Thermal decomposition will produce nitrous oxide which is useless and doesn't react with anything except sodium amide and fire

I was wondering if adding a catalyst like phosphoric acid and distill HNO3 at 120c this should work
Ammonium phosphate decomposes to ammonia and phosphoric acid at 200c! It's totally catalytic

Any ideas?

[Edited on 8-11-2020 by Fluorite]

[Edited on 8-11-2020 by Fluorite]

Fyndium - 8-11-2020 at 02:06

They thermally decomposed few kilotons of AN in Beirut and even in best case scenario it would produce only nitrous oxide like you said so I don't suggest that way.

Cheap? Calcium hydroxide + ammonium nitrate = calcium nitrate + ammonia, although the actual kinetics might be not so shake-and-bake due to the insolubility of Ca(OH)2. Calcium nitrate goes thermal decomposition into NO2, which can be led to water to generate HNO3, but this process is not 100% but more like 50% efficient.

Sodium bisulfate would generate ammonium sulfate and HNO3.

HCl is supposed to react with nitrates to generate HNO3 and a chloride.

Sulfuric acid process is the gold standard, and if you got access to commercial quantities, it's a good choice. You need to purchase 25-200L though.

unionised - 8-11-2020 at 02:26

If you have the kit and the other raw materials.
Treat a solution of Ammonium nitrate with sodium hydroxide to produce ammonia and sodium nitrate (and water).
Heat it to drive off the ammonia and dissolve that in water for later use.

Dry out the sodium nitrate and add it to sulphuric acid and then distill out the nitric acid.

In principle, you can do this the other way round- add the ammonium nitrate to sulphuric acid and distill out the nitric acid, then add sodium hydroxide to the ammonium sulphate produced.
My prefered option doesn't involve heating ammonium nitrate.

Fluorite - 8-11-2020 at 03:51

YAAAAAAS I found it
If the salt is formed by a non-volatile acid, then heating proceeds with the decomposition of the ammonium salt: N H 4 H 2 P O 4 → N H 3 + H 3 P O 4
Source:
https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Аммоний

OMGGGGGGGG HOLY COW that's it I'm the smartest

I'll try this asap and update you guys

I'll add phosphoric acid to ammonium nitrate and distill HNO3 okay this should work!
And then heat ammonium phosphate until decomposition to make ammonia Gas!! Phosphoric acid is just the catalyst!

You should give me an award or something

[Edited on 8-11-2020 by Fluorite]

Fluorite - 8-11-2020 at 03:54

I'M A F-ING GENIUS

Fyndium - 8-11-2020 at 04:46

If it works that way it is nice, because phosphoric acid is cheap and if it can be regenerated simply by heating off the ammonia, it saves a lot of reagents.

The most arduous way by far presented here is to treat ammonium nitrate with sodium hydroxide and then with sulfuric acid. Both reagents are relatively expensive and for some their acquisition might be limited. For example a 100mol batch batch of ammonium nitrate one would need 4kg of NAOH and then 10kg of sulfuric acid, and at technical grade prices this would yield about 100-150€ + several hours of work.

Yeah, I'm a fanatic of process economics.

unionised - 8-11-2020 at 05:01

Hot phosphoric acid destroys glassware.

unionised - 8-11-2020 at 05:08

Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium

Both reagents are relatively expensive and for some their acquisition might be limited.

Just like ammonium nitrate.

Fyndium - 8-11-2020 at 05:34

Yep, but it is always good to pick all the optimal choices instead of just throwing hands up in the air and ordering everything in ACS grade in 200mL bottles.

AN can usually be sourced somewhat reasonably from many products after 2- or more step purification process, or at least it can be used as a source of nitrate either with acid or by recrystallizing as KNO3.

Fluorite - 8-11-2020 at 05:37

Yea sure ammonium nitrate isn't available commercially but a friend of mine is a farmer and sometimes he can bring me a 2kg

Also I should try this and maybe if I make a copper flask cuz copper phosphate is insoluble this should be useful for protecting the flask as unionised stated phosphoric acid can dissolve glass but as far as I know very slowly

Fluorite - 8-11-2020 at 05:45

BUT IF THIS WORKS! Oh god why I feel so excited am I the first person who discovered this!!!

LOOK!!!!
This can make many things
Ammonium bicarbonate and sodium chloride = ammonium chloride + sodium bicarbonate OKAY? And then ammonium chloride + phosphoric acid = HCL! And ammonium phosphate which as I said earlier can be decomposed to phosphoric acid and ammonia! So using just Carbon dioxide and sodium chloride
YOU CAN MAKE HCL AND SODIUM BICARBONATE THIS IS TOTALLY CATALYTIC!!!!!!!

I'M A F-ING GENIUS SORRY NOT SORRY But I need help *^* +216 98462822 my WhatsApp

[Edited on 8-11-2020 by Fluorite]

ArbuzToWoda - 8-11-2020 at 05:54

Quote: Originally posted by Fluorite

BUT IF THIS WORKS! Oh god why I feel so excited am I the first person who discovered this!!!

LOOK!!!!
This can make many things
Ammonium bicarbonate and sodium chloride = ammonium chloride + sodium bicarbonate OKAY? And then ammonium chloride + phosphoric acid = HCL! And ammonium phosphate which as I said earlier can be decomposed to phosphoric acid and ammonia! So using just Carbon dioxide and sodium chloride
YOU CAN MAKE HCL AND SODIUM BICARBONATE THIS IS TOTALLY CATALYTIC!!!!!!!

I'M A F-ING GENIUS SORRY NOT SORRY But I need help *^* +216 98462822 my WhatsApp

[Edited on 8-11-2020 by Fluorite]

So far you're posing to be quite a clown. Such ionic reactions are equlibriums and as both ammonium chloride and sodium bicarbonate are well soluble in water that's not the way to go.

Fluorite - 8-11-2020 at 06:06

Quote: Originally posted by ArbuzToWoda

So far you're posing to be quite a clown. Such ionic reactions are equlibriums and as both ammonium chloride and sodium bicarbonate are well soluble in water that's not the way to go.

Don't hate me for discovering a new processes ¯\_⁦(๑˙❥˙๑)⁩⁦_/¯⁩. You should be supportive
Also sorry but you're wrong
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solvay_process

[Edited on 8-11-2020 by Fluorite]

[Edited on 8-11-2020 by Fluorite]

Fyndium - 8-11-2020 at 06:12

To be honest, these reactions are basic petty chemistry and probably invented back in the 1800's when everything else was discovered too.

It doesn't mean they're not useful, they are very indeed.

If both ions are soluble and their solubilities don't greatly differ, it is hard to separate them. It is easy to crash out calcium carbonate from equation, or if you mix ammonium nitrate and potassium chloride, you would be able to extract potassium nitrate crystals when cooling the solution, while both potassium chloride, ammonium nitrate and ammonium chloride ion pairs will remain in solution. This is actually my preferred way to generate KNO3 as a useful nitrate source as a reagent use from guess-game nitrate mixtures which are adulterated by evil chemists.

[Edited on 8-11-2020 by Fyndium]

ArbuzToWoda - 8-11-2020 at 06:16

Quote: Originally posted by Fluorite

[/rquote]
So far you're posing to be quite a clown. Such ionic reactions are equlibriums and as both ammonium chloride and sodium bicarbonate are well soluble in water that's not the way to go.[/rquote]

Don't hate me for discovering a new great and amazing processes ¯\_⁦(๑˙❥˙๑)⁩⁦_/¯⁩. You should be supportive
Also sorry but you're wrong
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solvay_process
[Edited on 8-11-2020 by Fluorite]

I'm not hating you. Just this self-praise without actual experimentation is unjustified.
The Solvay process is something entirely different. First of all, it's an industrial method that works on huge scales and therefore may accept simplifications. Note that due to hydrolysis the solution of NH₄Cl will be weakly acidic, thus possibly breaking the basic buffer that is required for the bicarbonate precipitate out. Also the subsequent reaction would require you to either melt the two solids together or use commercial 85% phosphoric acid and that would lower the yield significantly due to fantastic solubility of HCl in water. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is a shit ton of hassle to get such a basic reagent.

Fluorite - 8-11-2020 at 06:26

THANKS guys! please don't hesitate to try this yourself if you have a broken flask or something because again phosphoric acid can dissolve glass
Also I'm kidding when I said I'm the smartest person on earth it's a freaking joke so nobody can sue me. Everything I said was well thought out and genius but that doesn't mean it's true. None of it is confirmed (but that doesn't take away from the fact that Fluorite is a genius and deserves a lot of awards).

Okay bye lol stay woke XD

ArbuzToWoda - 8-11-2020 at 06:32

Quote: Originally posted by Fluorite

THANKS guys! please don't hesitate to try this yourself if you have a broken flask or something because again phosphoric acid can dissolve glass
Also I'm kidding when I said I'm the smartest person on earth it's a freaking joke so nobody can sue me. Everything I said was well thought out and genius but that doesn't mean it's true. None of it is confirmed (but that doesn't take away from the fact that Fluorite is a genius and deserves a lot of awards).

Okay bye lol stay woke XD

Well okay, that's just irritating. Good of you to be aware of that, though.

Fluorite - 8-11-2020 at 06:37

Wait when hot Phosphoric acid react with glass what happens? Like silicone phosphate or what?

ArbuzToWoda - 8-11-2020 at 06:42

Quote: Originally posted by Fluorite

Wait when hot Phosphoric acid react with glass what happens? Like silicone phosphate or what?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/002230...
2 seconds in google.

Fluorite - 8-11-2020 at 06:48

I saw this but can silicon phosphate make a protective layer and stop further reactions

ArbuzToWoda - 8-11-2020 at 06:50

Quote: Originally posted by Fluorite

I saw this but can silicon phosphate make a protective layer and stop further reactions

Yes, but at the same time it's formation destroys the structure of glass. So that could lead to the same thing as sodium hydroxide in NurdRage's process.

Tsjerk - 8-11-2020 at 07:01

I'm sure this has been tried in the 1800's. The fact there isn't any Google result popping up immediately makes me wonder how well this process runs. Please try and report back to us.

[Edited on 8-11-2020 by Tsjerk]

symboom - 8-11-2020 at 07:02

Quote: Originally posted by unionised

Hot phosphoric acid destroys glassware.

That explains why that's not used to make nitric acid.

Fluorite - 8-11-2020 at 07:08

Oh well I guess I should start collecting beer bottles from the beach and drill a hole and make a crude distillation setup

if phosphoric acid dissolve glass faster than I expect it's fine because many jerks keep throwing bottles and I get them for free. The trick is to heat the bottom without cracking :/ I guess I'll try oil bath

unionised - 8-11-2020 at 07:47

Quote: Originally posted by Fluorite

Yea sure ammonium nitrate isn't available commercially but a friend of mine is a farmer and sometimes he can bring me a 2kg

Also I should try this and maybe if I make a copper flask cuz copper phosphate is insoluble this should be useful for protecting the flask as unionised stated phosphoric acid can dissolve glass but as far as I know very slowly

Is copper phosphate soluble in hot phosphoric acid?

I suggest you ask your farmer friend about sulphuric acid and even ammonia.
But for those of us who have to rely on buying stuff...

unionised - 8-11-2020 at 07:53

Quote: Originally posted by Fluorite

I saw this but can silicon phosphate make a protective layer and stop further reactions

If it did I wouldn't have written that it wrecks flasks, would I?

Did you try thinking?

symboom - 9-11-2020 at 05:08

Nitric acid and sulfuric acid are damaging to many metal containers It's best to use sulfuric acid.

And borosilicate glass This is one of the safest ways.

Also sodium bicarbonate and ammonium cloride does react when heated to the decompression point ammonia and carbon dioxide is driven off pushing the reaction forward.
Common every one you see that he is trying and is new.

@Fluorite beer bottles?? Just no you need to be safe with that. look up nitric acid on youtube there is a process that uses hydrochloric acid and copper metal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5M3rUqaEYs
http://www.sciencemadness.org/smwiki/index.php/Nitric_acid

[Edited on 9-11-2020 by symboom]

[Edited on 9-11-2020 by symboom]

ArbuzToWoda - 9-11-2020 at 05:17

Quote: Originally posted by symboom

Nitric acid and sulfuric acid are damaging to many metal containers It's best to use sulfuric acid.

And borosilicate glass This is one of the safest ways.

Also sodium bicarbonate and ammonium cloride does react when heated to the decompression point ammonia and carbon dioxide is driven off pushing the reaction forward

Sure, contaminating your ammonia with a mist of ammonium carbonate.

symboom - 9-11-2020 at 05:22

Ah he wants ammonia too
The co2 would have to be bubbled through something to trap the carbon dioxide like sodium hydroxide and leave the ammonia gas

[Edited on 9-11-2020 by symboom]