Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Strange explosive vapor. I call (Poppy gas) named as a kid

mysteriusbhoice - 3-9-2020 at 11:27

When you mix some Ca(ClO)2
with a mixture containing
H2O2 + Isopropanol + Dishwasing liquid
The vapor produce detonates so violently it can cause cars to alarm and shatter the cup its in.

It doesnt work with H2OH +IPA alone when the H2O2 is decomposed with MnO2.
It doesnt work with Ca(ClO)2 with IPA alone when its heated/decomposed by other means.
Its this weird strong smelling vapor I produced several years ago when I was 14 and it also had nasty effects when breathing including headaches and lethargy lasting for 4-6 hours.
It also works with ethanol btw though not as powerful never tried methanol.
It also works when you swap Ca(ClO)2 with NaClO.

Someone said it could be Isopropyl Hypochlorite but im not too sure any clarification would be great thanks.

karlos³ - 3-9-2020 at 11:29

I don't know the proper name in englisch, its called "chlorknallgas" in german(="chlorine bang gas" would be a suitable translation), but the chemical formula appears to be chlorine oxyhydrogen?

You can probably have that translated: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorknallgas
Or maybe woelen can add something, since we speak just strong dialects of the same basic language.
They call it "chloorknalgas".

[Edited on 3-9-2020 by karlos³]

mysteriusbhoice - 3-9-2020 at 11:32

yea the chloroform like smell might mean that its removing that hydrogen and liberating chlorine + oxygen from the H2O2 so it could really be just a mix of Cl2 + H2 + O2
idk tho because it doesnt work with regular hydrocarbons like naptha and methylated spirits.

[Edited on 3-9-2020 by mysteriusbhoice]

Endo - 3-9-2020 at 12:17

Might this involve the formation of alkyl hypochorite vapor mixed with oxygen?

https://www.icheme.org/media/9194/xxii-paper-12.pdf

phlogiston - 3-9-2020 at 14:46

I don't think this yields 'chloorknalgas' (as we call it in Dutch), which is simply a stoichiometric mixture of hydrogen and chlorine.

I don't see any way that hydrogen could form with this combination of chemicals.

Can you be a bit more specific about the amounts and concentrations you use, and the brand/type of dishwashing liquid?
Does the gas detonate spontaneously, or do you have to ignite it?
If it detonates spontaneously, have you tried in the dark? (Chloorknalgas is well known for being initiated by UV light).

[Edited on 3-9-2020 by phlogiston]

mysteriusbhoice - 3-9-2020 at 21:17

the gas detonates only when lit and can even be stored for weeks without it detonating However it no longer is explosive after weeks.
the ratios were random and dont seem to be sensetive but ive for example used 70% IPA like 10ml and 10ml of 6% H2O2 and dishwashing soap is just to produce bubbles of the gas so its captured its optional but without it you get toxic explosive gas in your lungs giving you splitting headaches and lethargy for 6 hours when inhaled.
the amount of hypochlorite doesnt seem to be sensetive either and forms if I just pour the mix over a pile.
I also got som1 to try 50% H2O2 and 90% IPA and a pile of Calcium Hypochlorite and his stuff did the same as mine.

edit:
the explosive vapor works using other alcohols like methanol or ethanol too but isopropanol is the most explosive but the others are similar in terms of explosive loudness but IPA has the most oompf.
when it explodes it produces a distinct orange red flash aswell maybe calcium ?? and under the sun the bottle storing it seems to be stable and never really went off.
the smell is similar to chloroform but it has a slight brickish smell if that makes sense aswell.
you can try this and tell me if you know whats going on here.

[Edited on 4-9-2020 by mysteriusbhoice]

unionised - 4-9-2020 at 00:04

Hypochlorite and peroxide will react to produce oxygen.

A foam of oxygen made with water/ IPA/ detergent will have bubbles full of IPA vapour and oxygen.
That mixture of fuels and oxygen will give a really good bang if you light it.

mysteriusbhoice - 4-9-2020 at 00:23

Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
Hypochlorite and peroxide will react to produce oxygen.

A foam of oxygen made with water/ IPA/ detergent will have bubbles full of IPA vapour and oxygen.
That mixture of fuels and oxygen will give a really good bang if you light it.

I mentioned that I tried it without the hypochlorite subbing it for MnO2 which decomposes the H2O2 and even then the vapor only flashed with a bringt light but didnt violently detonate!

mysteriusbhoice - 4-9-2020 at 01:51

honestly it could well be a mix of several things like O2 + IPA vapor + Cl2 + reaction products like chloroform.
some Cl2 is liberated in this reaction but its a mix of a whole bunch of stuff tbh

woelen - 4-9-2020 at 04:04

The role of the dishwashing liquid is to keep the foam more stable.
The gaseous products almost certainly contain oxygen and organic vapor. On standing, the oxygen remains gaseous, the other compounds dissolve or decompose (e.g. vapor of isopropyl hypochlorite). The latter explains why the mix is not explosive anymore after some time of storage.

If you want a really impressive experiment, then mix some 50-80% acetic acid with methanol (2 ml of each is OK). To this, add 1 ml or so of concentrated bleach. You get strong bubbling and a colorless gas is produced. Let it bubble for a few seconds and then keep a flame near the gas (do this before the gas diffuses away). You will get a loud and really impressive report. It is best to do this experiment in a small aluminium cup (e.g. the ones, used in tea lights: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tealight). If such a small cup is used, then the gas does not diffuse away immediately. DO NOT SCALE UP THIS EXPERIMENT!!



[Edited on 4-9-20 by woelen]

mysteriusbhoice - 6-9-2020 at 06:48

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
The role of the dishwashing liquid is to keep the foam more stable.
The gaseous products almost certainly contain oxygen and organic vapor. On standing, the oxygen remains gaseous, the other compounds dissolve or decompose (e.g. vapor of isopropyl hypochlorite). The latter explains why the mix is not explosive anymore after some time of storage.

If you want a really impressive experiment, then mix some 50-80% acetic acid with methanol (2 ml of each is OK). To this, add 1 ml or so of concentrated bleach. You get strong bubbling and a colorless gas is produced. Let it bubble for a few seconds and then keep a flame near the gas (do this before the gas diffuses away). You will get a loud and really impressive report. It is best to do this experiment in a small aluminium cup (e.g. the ones, used in tea lights: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tealight). If such a small cup is used, then the gas does not diffuse away immediately. DO NOT SCALE UP THIS EXPERIMENT!!



[Edited on 4-9-20 by woelen]



that is called methyl hypochlorite and is also a very similar compound to isopropyl hypochlorite and probably just as loud if not more.

foreign maple - 8-9-2020 at 06:27

i wonder if it is a gaseous sprengel explosive (oxidizer being O and fuel being IPA in the bubbles) or is the gas actually energetic?

It would be pretty interesting if you could just test the gas somehow without the foam so it could eliminate my organic material fuel in the bubbles theory. you would still have the problem if there is organic vapors but it would be a good start.
I know hypochlorates and alcohols react to form CHCl3 and other compounds with irritating and harmful effects, this could be why it gave you a headache.

mysteriusbhoice - 8-9-2020 at 08:34

Quote: Originally posted by foreign maple  
i wonder if it is a gaseous sprengel explosive (oxidizer being O and fuel being IPA in the bubbles) or is the gas actually energetic?

It would be pretty interesting if you could just test the gas somehow without the foam so it could eliminate my organic material fuel in the bubbles theory. you would still have the problem if there is organic vapors but it would be a good start.
I know hypochlorates and alcohols react to form CHCl3 and other compounds with irritating and harmful effects, this could be why it gave you a headache.

as mentioned when no chlorine is added and H2O2 + IPA is mixed with MnO2 to decompose to liberate O2 with dishwashing liquid it wont explode and just burn brighter!
the gas itself is highly energetic when stored for weeks in a bottle it loses its properties when lit again

This gas detonates unconfined and really loud!! even when its done on a plate it detonates while IPA + O2 just burns faster

[Edited on 8-9-2020 by mysteriusbhoice]

woelen - 8-9-2020 at 22:50

IPA and hypochlorite do form an unstable isopropyl hypochlorite. This compopund is a volatile yellow liquid. The vapor indeed is very explosive. This stuff is even less stable than the methyl hypochlorite, which I describe in the above post. Last time, when I made the isopropyl ester the stuff spontaneously started decomposing, making scary crackling noises. I only had half a ml or so of the liquid, but even that small amount was quite scary!

mysteriusbhoice - 9-9-2020 at 10:30

the solution would sometimes form a yellow liquid and yea the foam keeps it stable or it can just POP POP POP hence the namy poppy gas!