Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Outside =/= fume hood

fdnjj6 - 15-8-2020 at 00:16

Since my last post got moved to detritus thanks to some people calling me a liar and a sissy, which made me obviously pissed and lashed back, I'm writing again and just throwing this out here. Say what you want, I don't give a fuck. Just listen and learn or ignore it. Also don't fucking reply to this bitching, if it doesn't even apply to you.

Outside =/= fume hood. Even with a fan, if someone can be within a close range, you are risking exposing innocent people to harmful chemicals. I had someone get some side effects of nitrotoluene exposure even though they were around 25-30 feet away on a balcony at the corner of the house. It was almost wind still and cool and so I'm sure that helped.

Keep proper disposal in mind. If you have to dump the chemicals and can't store them, forget it. Be responsible. Improper waste disposal is a key point that anti amateur chemists make and they are absolutely right. Often, disposal and reactions will not go as planned so make sure you can properly store the pure waste product safely. Waste water from washings, solid waste, liquid waste, etc. All needs to be properly gotten rid of if we want amateur chemistry thriving in the near future.

Keep other people in mind. I have went 6 years with amateur chemistry without as much as an acid burn. I was always able to keep myself completely safe since I had the PPE and knowledge to deal with situations. Guess who doesn't wear PPE and can have unexpected medical conditions? Other people. I don't know if my neighbor has asthma. Mixing bleach and ammonia and causing a small amount of chloramine exposure caused someone to die in the semi recent past. Think twice and three times before releasing things like NO2 into the air around you and others. Even low ppm of gases can cause a deadly attack.

Fume hoods often have filters that filter harmful gases and solvent fumes, and then it goes outside. Labs are often also not near residential areas.

Don't leave reactions unattended. In my experience, every single major accident was when I left it unattended and others can attest to that too. It's a bad idea unless you have a proper fume hood that won't endanger others.

Speaking of other people, think of them. I am personally fine dealing with the health effects that may come from my actions as an amateur chemist, but that doesn't mean others will have that same mentality too. If something goes wrong and someone else gets hurt due to your actions, that's obviously not good.

I've been guilty of it which is why I post this (hopefully without the stupid backlash like last time). All it took was for me to view the distillation from inside (I learned not to leave reactions/distillations on their own the hard way), and some of the sulfuric acid joint grease to evaporate. Boom nitric acid vapors leaking and I have no idea since everything looks 100% fine. Keck clamps destroyed, people exposed to the fumes (no one got hurt, lots of coughing, but no one got hurt badly. Iit's still not good/responsible and could've ended in the death of someone), and the ring stand clamp was rusted badly.

So, if you were running your stuff like I was (I know there are hundreds of you out there), don't work with nasty stuff. There are actually a lot of safe reactions you can do including multi step organic synthesis with low risk and high challenge/reward. Personally, I like to do shit with KMnO4. Sharpen up my titration skills and getting some analytical chem done so I can label my reagents properly. KMnO4 to titrate H2O2, H2O2 to titrate NaClO. Shit like that. Extract some solvents like toluene from carb cleaner, etc. While it's more of a kid's reaction, it's still super fun to play around with the chameleon reaction. Piss easy to do and the colors are extremely pretty. You can play around with concentration, temp, stirring, etc. and get some really aesthetic results. You can also do some more advanced stuff like xylene isomer mix -> phthalic acid -> phthalic anhydride (careful, this stuff is really irritating to the lungs and causes asthma, so depending on who you are and your setting, don't try this) -> phthalamide -> anthranilic acid (careful, suspicious precursor) -> methyl anthranilate or whatever else you want to do. Just branch off at some point and keep going or something. Personally, that is on my maybe list. It's one bitch of a project but could be really fun and very challenging. I'll be starting by just making some benzoic acid esters. That'll be a smaller and fun multi step synthesis that can utilize more advanced equipment (mainly for higher yields).

Also another tip I have is to work small scale (<1gram) whenever you can. Waste and safety are so much easier to control and chances are you don't need heaps of the end product anyway. Saves on chemicals too but not every reaction can utilize small scale.

Hope this helps.

FYI I will not be responding to trolls like last time. Don't feed into them.

Thanks.


Listen guys, I'm not trying to impress anyone, I'm not a safety guru, I'm not some upper being. I'm someone who is just trying to help out for fuck's sake. Why not share some advice? What is there that makes it bad?

Also yes I started this post mentioning the hate filled thread that ended in disaster to explain why I posted here again and letting people know who I am.

So go and do whatever you want. I don't care. Just leave me alone about it. All I want to do is share the things I have to offer. That's it.
[Edited on 15-8-2020 by fdnjj6]

[Edited on 15-8-2020 by fdnjj6]

HeYBrO - 15-8-2020 at 00:52

Thanks for these proclamations. It honestly sounds like you're projecting your own insecurities onto the whole forum... I thought you were "done" with this forum. You tried to make a point and people had different views and it ultimately ended up as a shitstorm. I know you say you're not responding to trolls, yet you open your post in the most unpleasant and condescending manner. If you don't "give a fuck", then don't post.

By the way, the original fume hoods were made by using fireplaces to make a convective draft to blow the fumes away! I think outside will probably be okay if you scrub your toxic gases in appropriate manner and be reasonable about reaction scale.

fdnjj6 - 15-8-2020 at 01:08

Quote: Originally posted by HeYBrO  
Thanks for these proclamations. It honestly sounds like you're projecting your own insecurities onto the whole forum... I thought you were "done" with this forum. You tried to make a point and people had different views and it ultimately ended up as a shitstorm. I know you say you're not responding to trolls, yet you open your post in the most unpleasant and condescending manner. If you don't "give a fuck", then don't post.

By the way, the original fume hoods were made by using fireplaces to make a convective draft to blow the fumes away! I think outside will probably be okay if you scrub your toxic gases in appropriate manner and be reasonable about reaction scale.


Not responding to trolls.

Thanks.

HeYBrO - 15-8-2020 at 01:16

Quote: Originally posted by fdnjj6  
Quote: Originally posted by HeYBrO  
Thanks for these proclamations. It honestly sounds like you're projecting your own insecurities onto the whole forum... I thought you were "done" with this forum. You tried to make a point and people had different views and it ultimately ended up as a shitstorm. I know you say you're not responding to trolls, yet you open your post in the most unpleasant and condescending manner. If you don't "give a fuck", then don't post.

By the way, the original fume hoods were made by using fireplaces to make a convective draft to blow the fumes away! I think outside will probably be okay if you scrub your toxic gases in appropriate manner and be reasonable about reaction scale.


Not responding to trolls.

Thanks.


Cool, not responding to valid criticism either apparently. It is all good though, you can just go post this to r/chemistry to virtue signal and get attacked by the very people you are trying to impress.

Swinfi2 - 15-8-2020 at 01:17

I honestly think this hobby has a Darwinian nature to it, if you are too bold and take too many risks, you die. (or get hurt)

Therefore those that don't get out early enough must be those who have learned to do their due diligence and research what, how, where, why and when so that they don't get hurt, or don't exceed their capabilities.

Part of the forum or not people will mix bleach and acid, the people here generally don't need a lecture on health and safety because if they didn't care to protect themselves they would... (read the first bit)

fdnjj6 - 15-8-2020 at 01:22

Quote: Originally posted by Swinfi2  
I honestly think this hobby has a Darwinian nature to it, if you are too bold and take too many risks, you die. (or get hurt)

Therefore those that don't get out early enough must be those who have learned to do their due diligence and research what, how, where, why and when so that they don't get hurt, or don't exceed their capabilities.

Part of the forum or not people will mix bleach and acid, the people here generally don't need a lecture on health and safety because if they didn't care to protect themselves they would... (read the first bit)


You can still try and learn safety. Obviously there is high risk but that doesn't mean we should give up on trying to keep people safe. Like I said, my main points are to not have innocent bystanders have their lives affected. Giving out safety advice to keep others safe is not a bad idea and I don't understand why people are so opposed to it here. You do not have to be distilling nitric acid in order to enjoy chemistry as a hobby.

Do you know where I'm coming from with this? (I don't mean that in a dickish tone, just asking)

fdnjj6 - 15-8-2020 at 01:25

Quote: Originally posted by HeYBrO  
Quote: Originally posted by fdnjj6  
Quote: Originally posted by HeYBrO  
Thanks for these proclamations. It honestly sounds like you're projecting your own insecurities onto the whole forum... I thought you were "done" with this forum. You tried to make a point and people had different views and it ultimately ended up as a shitstorm. I know you say you're not responding to trolls, yet you open your post in the most unpleasant and condescending manner. If you don't "give a fuck", then don't post.

By the way, the original fume hoods were made by using fireplaces to make a convective draft to blow the fumes away! I think outside will probably be okay if you scrub your toxic gases in appropriate manner and be reasonable about reaction scale.


Not responding to trolls.

Thanks.


Cool, not responding to valid criticism either apparently. It is all good though, you can just go post this to r/chemistry to virtue signal and get attacked by the very people you are trying to impress.


Not trying to impress, trying to help. Not sure why you are opposed to it. Also saying that using a fire place acted as a fume hood ages ago doesn't mean it's a good idea. Using a fire place as a fume hood for diethyl ether would obviously cause issues. My point still stands. Don't expose others to chemicals. I'm seriously having a hard time understanding why people here get so touchy about giving out safety info. This is literally the thread for safety advice isn't it?

fdnjj6 - 15-8-2020 at 01:28

Quote: Originally posted by HeYBrO  
Quote: Originally posted by fdnjj6  
Quote: Originally posted by HeYBrO  
Thanks for these proclamations. It honestly sounds like you're projecting your own insecurities onto the whole forum... I thought you were "done" with this forum. You tried to make a point and people had different views and it ultimately ended up as a shitstorm. I know you say you're not responding to trolls, yet you open your post in the most unpleasant and condescending manner. If you don't "give a fuck", then don't post.

By the way, the original fume hoods were made by using fireplaces to make a convective draft to blow the fumes away! I think outside will probably be okay if you scrub your toxic gases in appropriate manner and be reasonable about reaction scale.


Not responding to trolls.

Thanks.


Cool, not responding to valid criticism either apparently. It is all good though, you can just go post this to r/chemistry to virtue signal and get attacked by the very people you are trying to impress.


Also valid criticism isn't just talking about the issues I was having with people earlier. Keep it on topic please and not make this about other shit. I specifically asked people whom this info doesn't apply to to just ignore me. Not hard on the internet is it?

Thank you.

HeYBrO - 15-8-2020 at 01:39

Quote: Originally posted by fdnjj6  

Not trying to impress, trying to help. Not sure why you are opposed to it. Also saying that using a fire place acted as a fume hood ages ago doesn't mean it's a good idea. Using a fire place as a fume hood for diethyl ether would obviously cause issues. My point still stands. Don't expose others to chemicals. I'm seriously having a hard time understanding why people here get so touchy about giving out safety info. This is literally the thread for safety advice isn't it?


I don't think you got my point... No one is arguing against not exposing others to toxic chemicals (i didn't? strawman..?) I think you made a mistake and are now trying to force your safety "insights" on to everyone.

My criticism is on point, look how you opened your thread and are responding to me. Get off your high horse. Everything has an associated risk and you're blowing the risk of home chemistry out of the water. What makes you the expert? Seems like you made a mistake, which could have been worse and now everyone else has to be lectured on safety.

Maybe you should focus your preaching efforts to those who smoke, drink alcohol and eat unhealthy food. These all have way higher risks than home chemistry and cause way more death per year than the maybe 5000-10000(if that?) home chemists around the world. Better yet, maybe you can write a safety bible to all read and follow.

Thank you.

[Edited on 15-8-2020 by HeYBrO]

[Edited on 15-8-2020 by HeYBrO]

B(a)P - 15-8-2020 at 01:41

Working outside can be far better than a fumehood. A fumehood concentrates and directs a potentially toxic exhaust. If you work with favorable wind conditions you can get better dispersal working outside. Both approaches to the control of gases have their merits and both have weaknesses. Neither should be demonised. As with everything, you assess the risks and put appropriate controls in place. Maybe that is not doing a certain experiment when family/others are around, maybe it means blocking of an area for certain stages of your experiment. It is not difficult to estimate dispersion rates and apply appropriate controls based on your calculations.

fdnjj6 - 15-8-2020 at 01:45

Quote: Originally posted by HeYBrO  
Quote: Originally posted by fdnjj6  

Not trying to impress, trying to help. Not sure why you are opposed to it. Also saying that using a fire place acted as a fume hood ages ago doesn't mean it's a good idea. Using a fire place as a fume hood for diethyl ether would obviously cause issues. My point still stands. Don't expose others to chemicals. I'm seriously having a hard time understanding why people here get so touchy about giving out safety info. This is literally the thread for safety advice isn't it?


I don't think you got my point... No one is arguing against not exposing others to toxic chemicals (i didn't? strawman..?) I think you made a mistake and are now trying to force your safety "insights" on to everyone.

My criticism is on point, look how you opened your thread and are responding to me. Get off your high horse. Everything has an associated risk and you're blowing the risk of home chemistry out of the water. What makes you the expert? Seems like you made a mistake, which could have been worse and now everyone else has to be lectured on safety.

Maybe you should focus your preaching efforts to those who smoke, drink alcohol and eat unhealthy food. These all have way higher risks than home chemistry and cause way more death per year than the maybe 5000-10000(if that?) home chemists around the world. Better yet, maybe you can write a safety bible to all read and follow.

Thank you.

[Edited on 15-8-2020 by HeYBrO]

[Edited on 15-8-2020 by HeYBrO]


Like I said, this seems to not apply to you so please move on and quit trying to be the "expert on a high horse." I wrote this not for you at all, I wrote it for people like me. I know they exist and are common on this site. Sooooo how about you just please move on and quit insulting me.

Thank you.

fdnjj6 - 15-8-2020 at 01:49

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P  
Working outside can be far better than a fumehood. A fumehood concentrates and directs a potentially toxic exhaust. If you work with favorable wind conditions you can get better dispersal working outside. Both approaches to the control of gases have their merits and both have weaknesses. Neither should be demonised. As with everything, you assess the risks and put appropriate controls in place. Maybe that is not doing a certain experiment when family/others are around, maybe it means blocking of an area for certain stages of your experiment. It is not difficult to estimate dispersion rates and apply appropriate controls based on your calculations.


How do you do the calculations? I was certain that the fumes wouldn't reach at all. I'm not trying to demonize working outside but I'm just giving insight on what I've had happen so others don't follow.

I assessed the risk and figured 30 feet of gas dispersion is plenty but it obviously wasn't. You also can't really tell your neighbors and family to just hunker down and not go outside for a few hours. Especially if they smoke or something like that.

B(a)P - 15-8-2020 at 02:05

A quick google pulls up this attachment.
The idea is if your procedure puts someone at risk who's actions you can't influence then you don't do it. You wait until conditions are favorable, what ever they may be. It might be better atmospheric conditions, better time of day or wait till the receptor is not around.

Attachment: Dispersion_Handout.pdf (999kB)
This file has been downloaded 1075 times

B(a)P - 15-8-2020 at 02:11

Quote: Originally posted by fdnjj6  


I assessed the risk and figured 30 feet of gas dispersion is plenty but it obviously wasn't. You also can't really tell your neighbors and family to just hunker down and not go outside for a few hours. Especially if they smoke or something like that.


How did you asses the risk? Did you calculate the rate of gas production from your reaction? Did you calculate the rate of dispersion? Did you research exposure limits for your reactants and products? Did you review the expected weather conditions for the day?

Edit: How did you calculate 30 m to be safe?

[Edited on 15-8-2020 by B(a)P]

fdnjj6 - 15-8-2020 at 02:11

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P  
A quick google pulls up this attachment.
The idea is if your procedure puts someone at risk who's actions you can't influence then you don't do it. You wait until conditions are favorable, what ever they may be. It might be better atmospheric conditions, better time of day or wait till the receptor is not around.


Thanks for that document. It's a bit long so I'll have to read it later.

Yea I agree with what you say. The issue I'd have is that I already waited for good weather (having to often work at night), and favorable wind conditions. Those are all unpredictable though. People are unpredictable too.

For most who live in residential areas, safe projects can only be done in my opinion. Or else they are all in the same shoes as I and risk exposing others. But yea I agree doing stuff in 100% optimal stuff is obviously the best way to go but variables are often unpredictable.

fdnjj6 - 15-8-2020 at 02:18

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P  
Quote: Originally posted by fdnjj6  


I assessed the risk and figured 30 feet of gas dispersion is plenty but it obviously wasn't. You also can't really tell your neighbors and family to just hunker down and not go outside for a few hours. Especially if they smoke or something like that.


How did you asses the risk? Did you calculate the rate of gas production from your reaction? Did you calculate the rate of dispersion? Did you research exposure limits for your reactants and products? Did you review the expected weather conditions for the day?


I looked at the vapor pressure to figure out its volatility. 0.1mmHg @ 20C. Acetone is 185.5mmHg and water is 23.8mmHg. So it was easy to see that this stuff should not be volatile at all. There was no gas produced as a product in my reaction and the only vapors produced were from the liquid product during handling and separation. I did not look up the rate of dispersion. I looked up odor threshold and odor (cherry/almond like 0.05mg/L aka very low), I had to wait over 1.5 weeks until the weather was optimal for reaction and handling and I even had to work at 9:00PM-3:00AM. Exposure limits are 2ppm aka super low.

I'm telling you I wasn't new to this. This was going to show how even the most prepared can have some factor way above your head cause issues. In my case, the wind still which was what I wanted, and the fan being turned off since I had a respirator and it was outside, were both my downfall. The wind was so calm the vapors must've been able to gently glide all over the surrounding area. I was shocked and surprised how the person in question was even able to smell it let alone have symptoms.

I believe the reason they could smell it was because of the low odor threshold but even then, a low volatility, oily, liquid, from 30 FEET away! was able to cause symptoms! That seemed outrageous.

[Edited on 15-8-2020 by fdnjj6]

B(a)P - 15-8-2020 at 02:21

. You will always have an area you can influence, maybe it is 1 m2 maybe it is 100 m2. You run the numbers for the area you can influence and perform what is of acceptably low risk. What happens outside that area no longer matters.

fdnjj6 - 15-8-2020 at 02:26

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P  
. You will always have an area you can influence, maybe it is 1 m2 maybe it is 100 m2. You run the numbers for the area you can influence and perform what is of acceptably low risk. What happens outside that area no longer matters.


Good point. I'll have to pull some equations and numbers off of that file you sent me.

How do you run your numbers?

B(a)P - 15-8-2020 at 02:41

Just as I described in the earlier post. For example, my experiment will generate NO2 as the most toxic gas. I calculate the rate produced in my reaction. I then calculate the rate of dispersion and the concentration of no2 at the closest location I can not control. If the concentration of NO2 is less than an appropriate exposure criteria you are good to go, if not try something else.

j_sum1 - 15-8-2020 at 02:44

Since the op can't get two sentences in without swearing or attacking other members of this community, I am going to shut this down.

@fdnjj6, please take the time to browse this board. Not only will you find that your questions have all been addressed many times (there are many threads on fume hoods) you will also learn the culture of this place. This board has a long history, comparable with your lifespan. The most valuable things here are factual scientific discussions that centre on objective results and observations rather than mere anecdote, opinion and personal attacks. If you wish to contribute here then you are welcome. But you will get a better reception if you change your approach.