Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Best general purpose "OTC"-explosive not requiring detonators?

Junk_Enginerd - 5-7-2020 at 23:49

Hi

So I've done a lot of reading and a lot of synths but have never quite succeeded in making what I want. There's a plethora of energetic substances that work well and are fairly easily synthesized, but most require a powerful detonator to initiate, and I'm not too stoked about that. Besides, I think I might prefer a powerful deflagrating substance over a high explosive anyway.

I would also appreciate if it weren't hyper sensitive.

Therein lies the problem. It seems to me that the area between hyper sensitive primary explosives and "safe" but hard to inititate secondary explosives is very narrow. Sure, I could make ANFO, but I'd never get it to detonate. Yeah I can make some acetone peroxide but should I really?

As far as what I want to use it for, honestly for shits and giggles and mainly the satisfaction of having created it, but if it could be used for cracking rock that would be great as well. Sledgehammers and rock cracking chisels are satisfying, but the larger boulders and bedrock in my yard are a little too much hard work lol.

So far the most promising substance seems to be nitrocellulose. I've tried synthesizing it once with disappointing results, but I think I know what went wrong.

I'd love some more suggestions on substances that fit the criteria of being reasonably insensitive but don't need detonating initiators and can be made with OTC chemicals or chemicals synthesized with OTC components. Detonating or non-detonating. Preferably that don't require sulfuric acid, since I only have limited amounts scavenged from batteries. :/

Yes, I have looked through lots of sciencemadness' stickies and libraries, but it's difficult to sift out the mundane from the exotic...

Tsjerk - 6-7-2020 at 00:42

Have you looked for low explosives? If you've got a hole in that backyard rock to put an explosive in black powder might be all you need. Or some flash powder for example.

[Edited on 6-7-2020 by Tsjerk]

Junk_Enginerd - 6-7-2020 at 01:49

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Have you looked for low explosives? If you've got a hole in that rock in the backyard rock to put an explosive in black powder might be all you need. Or some flash powder for example.


I'll have a closer look at them. Don't know why I haven't thought of the specific term "low explosive", that makes it easier to find lol. If you could recommend something specifically that'd be great, or if you know of a good resource... Thanks, regardless!

I've never managed to make black powder that was powerful enough to accomplish much, plus it seems I would have to synthesise the sulfur from some sulfate since I cannot find it in elemental form, so it's a little work intensive. Still, that black powder was before I had a ball mill, so perhaps I'd have better luck now.

Flash powder would have power somewhere in the range between black powder and a high explosive, right? That sounds like what I'm looking for. I'll have a look at what the great google and sciencemadness libs can offer. Maybe I gotta get a rig up for making chlorates.

Hah, yeah, I'll put a hole in it first. It'd have to be some behemoth of an explosive to blow a rock to pieces just laying nearby!

[Edited on 6-7-2020 by Junk_Enginerd]

mackolol - 6-7-2020 at 01:52

Chlorate based explosives are nice. If you want something more destructible try ANFO.

B(a)P - 6-7-2020 at 02:18

Read the early chapters of The Chemistry of Powder and Explosives located here in the SM library

Edit - sorry screwed up the link


[Edited on 6-7-2020 by B(a)P]

Tsjerk - 6-7-2020 at 02:56

Potassium chlorate is a nice oxidizer in LE mixtures. Just make sure you don't mix it with something acidic (including impure sulfur), which will cause auto-ignition.

KClO3 with aluminium powder makes a nice flash powder. If you can make perchlorate you could think about whistle mix (KClO4/Na-benzoate), please don't make whistle mix with KClO3!

Edit: flash powder indeed is somewhere between BP and HE's. With a ball mill you can make pretty powerful BP though!



[Edited on 6-7-2020 by Tsjerk]

Herr Haber - 6-7-2020 at 09:32

You might want to look for Laboratory of Liptakov's posts.

Yes, you will need a detonator. But if you are interested in OTC and "the less traveled path" I'm pretty sure you'll be interested in what he published here.

Fulmen - 6-7-2020 at 11:44

Ah, the age-old quest for the perfect explosive. Sadly, the perfect compromise doesn't exist, there will always be something wrong with them.
Don't underestimate good'ol Black Powder, it served man fairly well for centuries. For more energetic mixes I would look at flash, burst or whistle mixes. Careful handling is required, but it can be done without risking your life.

MineMan - 6-7-2020 at 13:08

The answer to your questions lie within this forum and across YouTube, yet many fail to see it. The perfect explosive does exist, but the synthesis for a insensitive primary is too complex, for labs only.

As I have hinted at before, some types of flashpowder are insensitive yet cross the ddt realm and will detonate high sensitivity ANFO mixtures. It is hard to beat that. Here are a few clues on the perfect flashpowder.

1 it contains a OB + to promote insensitivity and DDT
2 it incorporates a small percentage of a high nitrogen fuel in addition to aluminum
3 it incorporates a percentage of oxidizer that contains both a fuel and and oxygen

I plan on patenting ddt flash mixtures for detonators, I will do my best to help, but understandably I don’t want to reveal everything my 1000 hour research taught me. These powders will burn like a flair mix unconfined, infact, you can’t light them with a match and it might even self extinguish if you do.. but confined it will be become more powerful than regular flash and will easily detonate AN mixtures that contain a metal powder.

A few more tips I have learned. OB+ AN mixtures are more sensitive than OB mixtures despite common knowledge, the pendulum then swings to very sensitive if the mixture becomes very OB-. ANFO “type” mixtures can even be set off by black powder if formulated correctly. Fulmen, is that not close to the perfect explosive :).

Fulmen - 7-7-2020 at 09:35

No, the perfect explosive does not exist. AN might be easy to get hold of, but it's useless for demolition or shaped charges. And I would really like to know of any usable high explosives that can be set of be BP.

As for DDT detonators, good luck. But you should know that the idea is older than you, and unless you can achieve millisecond repeatability it will have no commercial value.

MineMan - 7-7-2020 at 10:49

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
No, the perfect explosive does not exist. AN might be easy to get hold of, but it's useless for demolition or shaped charges. And I would really like to know of any usable high explosives that can be set of be BP.

As for DDT detonators, good luck. But you should know that the idea is older than you, and unless you can achieve millisecond repeatability it will have no commercial value.


Sandia uses DDT detonators composed of titanium hydride and potassium perchlorate. ZPP is also used in military and aerospace applications! And, as someone who works in industry... Non electric caps can scatter by 20ms... but are still used.

AN formulations can certainly be used to collapse a cone and create a jet! Not with the penetration of RDX, but still suitable for EOD work. We use emulsion for small demolition jobs.

Yes, some formulations can be set off by BP, because the formulation DDTs itself... 5000m/s....

Not every car needs to be a Ferrari.

[Edited on 7-7-2020 by MineMan]

clearly_not_atara - 7-7-2020 at 11:24

What you're looking for is basically a chemical that is more sensitive to heat than shock. You're more likely to accidentally bump into something than set it on fire, after all.

The problem is that the harder a material is, the more it tends to be shock-sensitive rather than heat-sensitive. This is partially because when a crack propagates in a crystal, it generates heat at the crack tip. Inorganic materials tend to be hard, but plastic explosives are softer.

Ascaridole for example is a liquid cyclic peroxide which detonates when heated above 130 C. This could make a mixture of ascaridole + AN to be a relatively safe detonator, I guess? Or even an explosive in its own right? Beware the possibility that it is shock-sensitive anyway. Ascaridole is present in epazote, a common Mexican spice which is available in dry form at supermarkets.

caterpillar - 7-7-2020 at 14:09

kalium picrate explodes, been ignited in confinement. And it is not extremely sensitive.

Pyro_cat - 11-7-2020 at 21:00

Quote: Originally posted by Junk_Enginerd  
As far as what I want to use it for, honestly for shits and giggles


Want booms shits and giggles cannons are cool too. They like the slower burning stuff.

Some crock pot clorate based stuff fire that just fine. Whole thread here about propellants in the sticky. Oh ya watch and video of a nice boom everyone shits and giggles after it goes off. Always smiles and laughter.

Busting up rocks, I think its more of a scientific challenge to get that done by some other way then just blowing them up. Sorry mine man !!

Defiantly a fan of oxy acetylene the way it can be created and set off from a distance very little danger factor if you think it through.

Just thinking a pellet gun would be a good thing to have if for some reason your balloon ignition didn't go off you could just pop it from a distance.

"Yeah I can make some acetone peroxide but should I really?"

That stuff is crazy. But at first it seems pretty harmless oh lit some and yellow fireball, hit a tiny bit with a hammer it popped and rang my ears cause *maybe* duh I should have had earmuffs on.

Lets melt some in a spoon, just a little , oh it melts, lets light the melted stuff.

Pow that little bit , an aspirin tablet what the hell it dented a dimple into the spoon OMG !!!

Friction tests, little tiny pile scrape it Around push harder, this stuff seems not so bad didn't go off... Light that or crack it with the hammer get rid of it try again....


Test number 20, scratch it around a bit on the metal plate barely pressed on it compared to the 19 times before and pop.

Anyone asks me should they make that stuff I am going to say no.

If you are smart enough to mess with really small amounts you might not get hurt.

I think its called the white devil not cause its anymore powerful or sensitive then other stuff but it presents itself as somewhat harmless and predictable for a wile, like it was made that way to trick people and create accidents.



[Edited on 12-7-2020 by Pyro_cat]