I've came up with trouble sourcing sodium perborate and ammonium persulfate, so I looked up for alternative methods, and found that sodium persulfate
is otc, and sodium percarbonate (sodium carbonate peroxide) is found in bleaching powders, mixed with sodium carbonate and sodium chloride. There is,
though, couple of sources that sell somewhat pure sodium percarbonate. Are these compounds interchangeable? I figured out that the powder with NaCO3
and NaCl could be used directly, because these should not react with the synthesis itself.Tsjerk - 8-5-2020 at 04:27
Interchangeable in which context? What synthesis? Refinery - 8-5-2020 at 05:11
The synthesis consists of 40mL GAA, 20mL of acetone and 27.8g sodium perborate. Perborates seem to be phased out due to environmental issues, but
every source cites percarbonate interchangeable.
[Edited on 8-5-2020 by Refinery]Tsjerk - 8-5-2020 at 05:40
What sources? Refinery - 8-5-2020 at 09:04
I believe the matter of the syntheses of this topic is irrelevant, but more of how per-compounds can be substituted, because there are multitude of
them and many syntheses describe certain ones, perhaps because of need, or perhaps because of availability.
What are their interchangeability for syntheses in general?
With sources I mean OTC. Where they can be sourced as pure as possible, and what they are usually mixed with (sodium carbonate, sodium silicate,
sodium chloride, tensides, etc) and can they be used directly or purified prior to use?
I'm tired of chemistry that uses routes that do work, but require exotic and exclusive chemicals that are either extremely difficult to obtain and/or
extremely expensive, making any practical scale unaffordable to the common hobbyist. Any institution with access to any substance imaginable with
unlimited funding and equipment. No offense, I mean, but personally I think chemistry as a hobby is finding the optimal route based on skill,
availability, price and other factors.
[Edited on 8-5-2020 by Refinery]clearly_not_atara - 8-5-2020 at 10:18
Persulfates may be made by electrolysis. Sodium persulfate in particular is the most useful anyway because it has the highest solubility; other
persulfates can be obtained by metathesis. Ammonium persulfate is used as a circuit board etchant and usually comes up only because it is
easier to obtain than the others.
Perborates are special and cannot be replaced with other inorganic peroxides, but are only necessary anyway for Baeyer-Villiger reactions where they
may also be substituted by organic peracids. The preparation of organic peracids is OTC and many descriptions are available.
Sodium percarbonate is almost never useful due to its rapid decomposition in aqueous solution. It might be used for the Dakin reaction but here 3%
aqueous H2O2 is already sufficient and nothing is more OTC.
The only peroxides that present a barrier to entry to my knowledge are concentrated H2O2 and peroxymonosulfate (Oxone). But as far as I know dilute
H2O2 can be concentrated by simply boiling possibly with a suitable stabilizer which is usually a small amount of phosphoric acid. Peroxymonosulfate I
don't know exactly but I think it can be made from potassium persulfate somehow.
Most of these topics have been discussed in detail if you simply UTFSE...Refinery - 8-5-2020 at 11:34
The synthesis specifically requests sodium perborate, hence I thought could I substitute it with other OTC per-compounds (as per name).mackolol - 8-5-2020 at 12:47
You can make peroxides using perhydrol easily.Refinery - 8-5-2020 at 13:21
Quote:
one (14.6 g; 0.09 mol) in a mixture of glacial acetic acid (40mL) and acetone (20mL)was added sodiumperborate (27.8 g; 0.18 mol)in portions over a six
hour period while heating the mixture to between 50 – 60°C. The reaction progresswasmonitoredbyGC/MSoverseveralhoursuntil the reaction had gone to
completion.
On a notice, the reaction does not involve water, hence decomposition should not be an issue per se.
H2O2 is a controlled substance in EU for individuals so it's not OTC.
[Edited on 8-5-2020 by Refinery]Tsjerk - 8-5-2020 at 14:39
Literally every drugstore and pharmacy sells 3% hydrogen peroxide. In the Netherlands you can buy up to 12% as a individual without any permit.
And if you can't tell what specific reaction you want to perform, I don't think anyone can help you any better than clearly_not_atara already did, who
already did a really good job I think...karlos³ - 8-5-2020 at 14:41
Its certainly the baeyer-villiger, and for that he can use OTC oxone... Refinery - 8-5-2020 at 15:24
Tsjerk: yes it is available, but the price can easily be 30€ per liter for 3% so performing any reaction beyond test tube scale will gross the
budget by an order of magnitude.
I checked and oxone appears to be available at 100% purity.
Could anyone refer to any good sources to read upon oxidations with it that could be substituted for percarbonate/borate/etc?karlos³ - 8-5-2020 at 16:59
We don't know for what it will be substituted.
Tell us your substrate, then we can help you.Sigmatropic - 8-5-2020 at 23:43
Acetone, a weak acid and an easily available peroxide substitute. Yep, I've heard enough, good bye! mackolol - 9-5-2020 at 00:40
H2O2 is a controlled substance in EU for individuals so it's not OTC.
I forgot... In poland it's no problem to buy few liters of 35% stuff, it's super cheap and it is not controlled at all.
And I wonder how it is in US...
[Edited on 9-5-2020 by mackolol]Tsjerk - 9-5-2020 at 00:52
I found 12% H2O2, 5 liters, including shipping, delivered next Tuesday for 27.90 euro. On Amazon, in one minute. Refinery - 9-5-2020 at 01:44
Acetone, a weak acid and an easily available peroxide substitute. Yep, I've heard enough, good bye!
Now that you put it this way, I see where this is going and no, this does not involve any energetic substances neither I don't want to have any side
products that can cause issues. Fancy how chemistry goes: one step that way and DEA is on you, and one step to the other and it's the ATF.
The synthesis I quoted left out the reactant which is 3-methyl-4-phenyl-3-buten-2-one.karlos³ - 9-5-2020 at 02:57
