Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Belladonna extract

Mr. Rogers - 5-1-2020 at 00:00

Don't ever try this. It's the worst thing I've ever experienced in my life.

Mr. Rogers - 5-1-2020 at 02:21

TL;DR. etc.

I'm just sharing my thoughts I guess...

Six months ago I bought 1 lb of dried belladonna from Ebay and extracted 1/2 oz with hexane in a soxhlet and distilled off the hexane. The idea was to isolate hyoscine and use this for a novel route to pentobarbital that seemed plausible on paper.

I did a very stupid thing, and sampled about .5cc of the oil orally. I'll spare you the explanation of what I presume was atropine poisoning. You can find that out yourself.

Bottom line, I completely lost my sense of balance, and fell down a flight of stairs and broke my tibia and fibula, and one of the metatarsal bones in my foot. I had two surgeries and now have a pair of rods in my leg with a bunch of screws.

I just got off a walker and am now able to drive.

I did a very stupid thing... So my embarrassment might serve as a warning to others that are wiser than I am.

Metacelsus - 5-1-2020 at 06:05

Yeah, that was really dumb. (And FYI, hyoscine is also an antimuscarinic, just like atropine.)


Also making pentobarbital from hyoscine seems implausible. The structures are quite different.

Tsjerk - 5-1-2020 at 09:01

Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers  
The idea was to isolate hyoscine and use this for a novel route to pentobarbital that seemed plausible on paper.


Best of luck with your recovery!

What was your idea behind that synthesis? I don't see how that could work..

Fery - 5-1-2020 at 11:42

Hi Mr. Rogers, so did you ingest 0,5 ml of the extract orally to test its effect, just to know whether ever it contained what it had to contain? Or did it happen accidentally e.g. when pipetting it using your mouth instead of a balloon? Did you spit it out as quickly as possible and as much of it as possible? Do you remember how much time passed between ingestion and onset of your health trouble? Some substances start to be absorbed even in oral mucosa.
Anticholinergic medicals are used human medicine but at scale like 50 mg of atropine for an adult.
While I was servicing basic military training we had automatic injection devices with atropine in stock which would be used by soldiers on organophosphate poisoning in war but I do not remember the dosis, maybe more than 50 mg, perhaps 150 mg but I'm not sure.
Certainly 0,5 ml of concentrated extract is too much.
Witches used small amounts of anticholinegic herbal substances to induce hallucinations in medieval times.
Anticholinergic effect on skeletal muscles causes myorelaxation - that's why you fell. Though different substances are used to case myorelaxation in human medicine (succinylcholine, pancuronium, etc).
I wish you full recovery and return to you beloved lab and practical chemistry ASAP.

DavidJR - 5-1-2020 at 11:53

You deliberately ingested a significant quantity of a concentrated extract from a plant named Deadly Nightshade. Sorry, but that's just idiotic.

Ubya - 5-1-2020 at 15:55

excuse me but what did you think would happen? ingesting a poison to test if it works and then realising it is a bad idea to ingest poisons?

unionised - 5-1-2020 at 16:08

I don't think anyone (including the OP) is saying this was anything other than a bloody stupid thing to do.

However...
Prepared belladonna herb contains about 0.3% alkaloids
And so the extract from half an ounce ( about 15 grams) of it should contain about 50mg of assorted alkaloids.

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/documents/mrl-report/atropa-bel...


And the major alkaloid is, I think, atropine
And the LD(lo) for an adult is about 100 mg.
(loc cit)
So, while it may have been bewilderingly stupid, it wasn't actually suicidal to swallow the lot.
Trying a fraction of it was... misguided.

Mr Rogers may be astoundingly foolish, but he was also unlucky.

Nest time you take unknown amounts of unknown drugs, don't do it at the top of the stairs.

Mr. Rogers - 5-1-2020 at 23:25

Quote:
I don't think anyone (including the OP) is saying this was anything other than a bloody stupid thing to do.


That's right, and I debated even posting about this experience because of the inevitable finger wagging and moralizing that would be sent my way. That's OK. I guess my skin is as thick as my brain matter.

Everyone's done something regrettable in their life. It's chemistry-related and germane to the subject matter here, I think. Think of this as my version of the "detonation" thread in the energetic forum, although that guy certainly got it worse than I did. A personal PSA, if you will.

And I wasn't trying to pipette with my mouth or anything like that. I intentionally took the extract because I wanted to experience the belladonna. There's nothing interesting or positive about this extract at all. It's a completely crappy feeling and experience that is best to be avoided.

[Edited on 6-1-2020 by Mr. Rogers]

Mr. Rogers - 6-1-2020 at 00:14

Quote: Originally posted by Fery  

While I was servicing basic military training we had automatic injection devices with atropine in stock which would be used by soldiers on organophosphate poisoning in war but I do not remember the dosis, maybe more than 50 mg, perhaps 150 mg but I'm not sure.


I was in the army and we had a three-part "antidote" for organophosphates.

Originally, there was a two-part injector set with atropine and 2-praladoxime-chloride (sp?? I think that's what it was called), and you would administer the atropine followed by the 2-PAM-Cl. This was repeated up to three times if the victim didn't exhibit improvement.

The protocols changed over the years and a 10cc injector of diazepam was added to the protocol. but I remember the most recent procedure was to "buddy" administer (inject somebody else) three sets of of atropine/2-PAM-Cl in immediate succession followed by one of the diazepam. Then you sit around and observe the victim and trust in the science...

[Edited on 6-1-2020 by Mr. Rogers]

XeonTheMGPony - 6-1-2020 at 04:08

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pralidoxime

SWIM - 6-1-2020 at 20:16

Next time isolate the material first and confirm purity by MP at least.

Plant extracts have variable strength.

Back when such materials were used widely in medicine a huge amount of effort went into testing and standardizing the extracts so people didn't OD all the time.(Like testing the strength of ergot extracts by injecting them into a rooster to see how much it takes to turn his comb blue. This was the standard assay method for decades)

Besides, you can't do chemistry with your atropine and eat it too (Marie Antoinette allegedly said this while discussing her plans to make cocaine from atropine via an elaborate synthetic organic route. She was years ahead of her time.)

I don't know where you live, but if it is by any chance California, don't buy that stuff again.
You can get the same alkaloids from the Datura (Brugmansia?) trees that are relatively common in residential gardens here.

Also, the nuisance plant Jimson weed has these same alkaloids and is a common weed in some areas.
Used to be loads of it just outside Los Banos.


Note: This stuff doesn't even really qualify as a drug of abuse because almost nobody likes it.
If you take a large dose of atropine and don't remember having a rotten time, it's probably just the retrograde amnesia it often causes.









Herr Haber - 7-1-2020 at 04:18

Quote: Originally posted by SWIM  


I don't know where you live, but if it is by any chance California, don't buy that stuff again.
You can get the same alkaloids from the Datura (Brugmansia?) trees that are relatively common in residential gardens here.

Also, the nuisance plant Jimson weed has these same alkaloids and is a common weed in some areas.
Used to be loads of it just outside Los Banos.


Note: This stuff doesn't even really qualify as a drug of abuse because almost nobody likes it.
If you take a large dose of atropine and don't remember having a rotten time, it's probably just the retrograde amnesia it often causes.



I was going to say that this "trip report" reminded me a lot of friends describing their trip on Datura.
When a friend who lived through the 60s in a LSD haze tells me it's not something they would do again or suggest to anyone I tend to listen. Who wants to be sick for two days ?

I thought of growing some Datura and extracting the alkaloïds for the kick of it.
Never looked into the separation though. Thanks for this thread.

mhz4.77 - 7-1-2020 at 05:05

"There is no completely safe procedure. Different lines of reasoning may lead to different predictions of a dosage level likely to be inactive in man.
A prudent researcher begins his exploration at the lowest of these.
(...)
Once it has been established that the chosen initial dose has been without effect of any kind, I increase the dosage on alternate days, in increments of about a factor of times two at low levels and perhaps times one and a half at higher levels." ---Alexander Shulgin

After all, experimentation is the only thing that separates us from mere philosophers.
Oh wait, and also they get all the chicks. :D

S.C. Wack - 8-1-2020 at 15:12

It doesn't seem entirely unwise (except for the unknown provenance and legitimacy) as one would generally not expect alkaloids in a hexane extract (aka defatting) of dried leaves, not l-atropine or anything else. It's all rather curious...a 400's mg taste of presumed wax?
Quote: Originally posted by SWIM  
comb blue...cocaine from atropine


Ever read obscure things, then someone soon mentions them? Now that's a trip.

morganbw - 9-1-2020 at 06:10

When I was much younger I had pondered playing around with jimson weed.
I am thankful that it was too scary even for a dumb ass like me.

Mr. Rogers - 13-3-2020 at 11:43

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
Quote: Originally posted by SWIM  


I don't know where you live, but if it is by any chance California, don't buy that stuff again.
You can get the same alkaloids from the Datura (Brugmansia?) trees that are relatively common in residential gardens here.

Also, the nuisance plant Jimson weed has these same alkaloids and is a common weed in some areas.
Used to be loads of it just outside Los Banos.


Note: This stuff doesn't even really qualify as a drug of abuse because almost nobody likes it.
If you take a large dose of atropine and don't remember having a rotten time, it's probably just the retrograde amnesia it often causes.



I was going to say that this "trip report" reminded me a lot of friends describing their trip on Datura.
When a friend who lived through the 60s in a LSD haze tells me it's not something they would do again or suggest to anyone I tend to listen. Who wants to be sick for two days ?

I thought of growing some Datura and extracting the alkaloïds for the kick of it.
Never looked into the separation though. Thanks for this thread.


This is no trip report and there is **NOTHING** pleasant about what I did.

It's nothing like LSD or anything like that. It's extremely shitty and I would advise anybody to stay away from this. You won't like anything about this.

[Edited on 13-3-2020 by Mr. Rogers]

Herr Haber - 21-3-2020 at 00:29

So basically what I said.
Thank you. I guess.

OrganicGuy - 21-3-2020 at 01:40

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
You deliberately ingested a significant quantity of a concentrated extract from a plant named Deadly Nightshade. Sorry, but that's just idiotic.

That's exactly what i was thinking... really weird and stupid thing to do

SWIM - 21-3-2020 at 09:56

Well I did a stupid weird thing like that once.

I bet a substantial minority of our posters have.
Maybe you ate Syrian Rue extract, maybe you made Armstrong's mixture dry.
Maybe you figured that benzene can't be all THAT toxic when it smalls so damn good.

Having the backbone to post about it and warn others is a good thing.
Maybe you saved somebody else a trip down some stairs by telling us about your mistake.
Maybe you saved them from something worse.

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who admires that.


@Herr Haber: I think the library here has the Technology and Chemistry of Alkaloids. A good general text for getting pure alkaloids out of plant materials with early 20th century technology.

They cover tropanes and its pretty straightforward other than their sensitivity to low Ph (edit: make that high Ph)in aqueous solutions. (Use ammonia and work fast)

I found it interesting to read as they used different techniques in those old semi-industrial processes.

They really liked taking an initial alcoholic extract to work with whenever possible.

Seems like more than 1/2 their procedures start with extracting in ethanol or methanol and concentrating in 'vacuo' (old time chemistry talk- LOL) to a thick syrup.


[Edited on 21-3-2020 by SWIM]

Herr Haber - 26-3-2020 at 05:35

Quote: Originally posted by SWIM  


@Herr Haber: I think the library here has the Technology and Chemistry of Alkaloids. A good general text for getting pure alkaloids out of plant materials with early 20th century technology.

They cover tropanes and its pretty straightforward other than their sensitivity to low Ph (edit: make that high Ph)in aqueous solutions. (Use ammonia and work fast)

I found it interesting to read as they used different techniques in those old semi-industrial processes.

They really liked taking an initial alcoholic extract to work with whenever possible.

Seems like more than 1/2 their procedures start with extracting in ethanol or methanol and concentrating in 'vacuo' (old time chemistry talk- LOL) to a thick syrup.


[Edited on 21-3-2020 by SWIM]


I must have missed that book.
Judging by your description I'm pretty sure it'll be a pleasant read.
Thanks !