Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Processing lead from batteries - finding a method that works

RogueRose - 25-9-2019 at 01:31

I've been having problems with getting any substantial yields from processing lead acid batteries from car batteries, marine batteries and small SLA's (UPS backups and such). I find that on average it's possible to get about 15-25% of the metal weight in the battery into a pure lead metal from melting (and it requires unusually high and long levels of heating for lead). This seems to be a common issue people have found and there are many video's with people finding how little lead is recovered from this method - so I'd like to see if anyone else has gone through the process and recovered the full weight of lead from a battery (minus O2 for PbO2 plates).

The plates are supposed to be a plate made of Pb and one of PbO2 (with a Pb lattice underneath that gets converted partially to PbO2). I've read and been told that the lead used is a sponge lead b/c it has more surface area. I've tried heating the "pure" lead plates maybe 6-8 different ways from electric, propane, kilns, forges (gas/coal/charcoal) and I usually use a caste iron container, stainless, steel, porcelain, (I've probably tried many with different heat sources).

I'd have to guess that less than 50% of the weight from the pure lead plates can be recovered by heating, and it takes A LOT more heat than melting other things like sinkers, wheel weights, bullets, etc. The plates often have to get orange hot before any beads of the lattice start melting out and I have to guess that most of the melted lead is from the lattice with very little from the sponge. After heating I'm left with a strange almost powdery lead that has remarkably little PbO for how long and how strongly it was heated. I've had the lead orange/yellow hot, with a fair size pool in the bottom and even submerging the unmelted lead in this pool doesn't melt it (and it was the same color/temp).

I've dissolved the "pure" lead in vinegar + H2O2 and it completely dissolves and gives beautiful, pure looking lead acetate crystals. I've been told there may be some antimony in the lead (some say there is, some say it is very pure lead, so IDK) but that also makes a white acetate powder but from the crystals formed, it looks to be pure lead.

The PbO2 is very difficult (and dirty) to work with and I've tried many of the same things as above as far as heating, with hopes of turning it into PbO, and I've had difficulty completing this as well. I've tried grinding into a powder and heating it as plates and I did heat until strong orange color, so it should have been MUCH hotter than needed to reach decomp temps to PbO, and I maintained the heat for about an hour (3 small plates 1" x 2" - so pretty small) which I would think is plenty of time to decompose to PbO, especially since it supposedly only needs about 600F to decompose. When it gets red-orange hot the powder moves almost like a liquid but I can tell it isn't melted and is still a powder.

So I've tried heating the PbO2 with carbon - coal, charcoal (powdered) and some other charred/carbonized materials (hard nut shells and more). I've heated it so hot the coal has turned to coke but the carbon doesn't burn up. I've also tried blowing some air onto the red/orange hot carbon/PbO/PbO2 mix (most was PbO at this point). I used a stainless steel tube and tried heating the air before it reaches the lead (heating inside the tube) and I've tried blowing through an open flame (the one heating the container w/ flames coming up the sides) and also pushing the tube into the container to blow air into the bottom, hottest part. The only reaction I found was getting some slight green flames around the edges (from lead or carbon?) - these flames also started on initial heating of the C+PbO2 for about 1-2 mins.

The most disappointing thing about all of this is the amount of useable lead metal easily recovered. I wouldn't be surprised if a person with little to no experience might recover 10-15% of the weight of the plates/connectors and an experienced person maybe 20-30%. For lead batteries being so common and good source of lead, there has to be a way to get higher yields w/o dissolving in acids and then going through reducing steps (which often leads back to PbO). I'd really like to get this problem solved b/c I know I'm not the only one who has a problem with this and would love to be able to create a process where this is doable by a determined person - it doesn't have to be "kitchen chemistry" level

This is the Pb plates and would only melt while adding heat from the top with a blowtorch. There were solid chunks that just wouldn't seem to break up or melt. I had to use a screwdriver to cut it and break it up.
Pb_1.jpg - 109kB Pb_2.jpg - 141kB Pb_3.jpg - 111kB Pb_4.jpg - 72kB Pb_5.jpg - 94kB

The below is PbO2 that was mixed with powdered coal. The color of heat was orange though it looks red in the picture. The PbO2 did mostly convert to PbO but I didn't see any reduction to Pb after well over an hour at orange heat & trying to blow air on/into it.
PbO2_1.jpg - 95kB PbO2_2.jpg - 99kB PbO2_3.jpg - 132kB

teodor - 25-9-2019 at 01:53

I have 2 old lead batteries and plan to recover lead. I thought to use HNO3 to dissolve all metallic leads as well as it's compounds and then separate lead from impurities by H2SO4. But thank you for publishing another route. I will be able to compare.

Ubya - 25-9-2019 at 04:18

i've done this twice, and i'm tweaking the technique to make the process easier and faster.
just heating the PbO2 is not enough, it will turn to PbO, and then it will melt (probably what you saw was the liquid PbO).
i also thought of adding charcoal and heating them together, but onestly i didn't try, i directly tried the approach i'm using now.
what i'm doing is the same thing that was done in the past to make iron.
the first model was a "cupula furnace" out of a steel can, and two manual air pumps to pump air in the furnace from the bottom. i would light a small fire inside the can, and then i eould add charcoal, and lead oxides in layers. the charcoal would be consumed reducing the oxide to metal that would flow to the bottom of the furnace (where i would tap it off from a small hole in the furnace), this first build was not great, the air was insufficient and i had to manually pump it for 4 hours befor i eould just give up.
the second model was 4 or 5 soup cans piled and secured one to another to make a long steel tube closed at the bottom. the air was now supplied by an air mattress pump (those used while camping), this version was a failure as the small diameter of the cans made to much air resistance and the heat was localized too much.
what i'm planning now is to use bigger cans (coffee cans) and finer charcoal, this should work.

talking about yield, the first battery i did i first melted out the lead metal, i got a muffin mold worth of lead, then i processed rhe oxides in the cupola furnace and i got another 2 muffins worth of lead but i only used half or less of the total oxide i had (i got exhausted by pumping air by hand).
this is the method used industrially so it should work, and processing 10kg of lead oxides (from 1 big battery or a few smaller ones) can not be done in beakers or at lab scale.
@teodor to process 2 batteries you are going to need lots of nitric acid, it is going to get expensive.



image_thumb5-11.png - 150kB 20181216_141750-1.jpg - 737kB IMG-20181220-WA0002-1.jpg - 3.6MB this is the block that came out of the failed run after cooing. you can see the glassy PbO and the little beads of lead on the embedded pieces of charcoalIMG-20181220-WA0004-1.jpg - 3.1MB

Metacelsus - 25-9-2019 at 04:42

What kind of containment are you using? I'd be very worried about lead contamination spreading.

RogueRose - 25-9-2019 at 05:02

Quote: Originally posted by teodor  
I have 2 old lead batteries and plan to recover lead. I thought to use HNO3 to dissolve all metallic leads as well as it's compounds and then separate lead from impurities by H2SO4. But thank you for publishing another route. I will be able to compare.


Have you processed any before? It is messy, just beware. I would suggest seperating all the plates and peel off as much paper as you can from between the layers. Then when you have the lead plates (negative plate) and the PbO2 plates (positive plates). Stack the negative plates, put them in plastic bags (I used like 8 plastic grocery bags) and wrap them around to get as many layers as possible. Then smash the flat side of the plates - not as hard as you can but hard enough to break up the sponge. You will be left with lead powder and deformed lattice/matrix.

This lead lattice can be melted easily and recover the lead - as well as the solid top jumper that connects the plates inside the cell and between cells - that is all good pure lead. Just heat this as normal and put it aside.

The lead powder can then be dissolved easily in acid. The problem is if there is a lot of paper left on the plates before you smash it - I forgot about that. I actually soaked in water (with a little NaHCO3) and then used a scrub brush & brass wire brush on each side over a bucket to catch all the lead water (deal with that later - it's not hard, but DON'T put down the drain).

I used vinegar and H2O2 and it makes a grey powder and I think this will dissolve the paper as well - so will HNO3, so this should be avoided. This could probably be avoided by heating strongly before dissolving and maybe some will even melt and get more pure lead. If you don't scrub well, I'd suggest this - unless you can get a carbon reduction process to work.

The problem is after this you have the salt, which I think decomps to PbO, which is what you would get from strong heating anyway, so IDK the point of wasting the acid unless you wanted to make a stronger acid by decomposing the salt.

To deal with the positive plates, I did the same thing, wrapping them in plastic bags. This will SHRED the bags (especially the ones close to the plates - for both + & - plates) so I'd do this over a ground cover of some kind, the PbO2 gets dustier than the Pb plates. You can also do all this while the plates are wet/damp and that helps the dust, but wet PbO2 is MESSY and can stain. It should't be too necessary to scrub the PbO2 plates if you are going to heat them to get PbO as it will just burn off.


If you scrub the negative plates & have dirty water left over, allow it to settle (couple days) and pour/siphon off the top 50-70% and discard then boil down the rest until you have a sludge you can scrape out - which you will then heat/cook to PbO - burning off the carbon. Otherwise you will have cellulose dissolving in an acid - so IDK what other option there is for this.

There is a way to decompose the PbO by heat but it looks like it needs 2200F which can be difficult to reach w/o special equipment and I'll cover that in another reply.

RogueRose - 25-9-2019 at 05:06

Quote: Originally posted by Metacelsus  
What kind of containment are you using? I'd be very worried about lead contamination spreading.


Me? Depends on what and where you are talking about. When dealing with the plates, mine are always wet when handling. All heating is done outside. When I break any of this up (plates, PbO/PbO2), it's done inside a number of plastic bags, inside 2 layers of large plastic bags that the hammer & bagged plates are in. Eveything gets treated, put in waste disposal container (special disposal). Gloves when handling the plates (disposable gloves)

When working with the pure lead? Nothing.

[Edited on 9-25-2019 by RogueRose]

rockyit98 - 25-9-2019 at 05:51

lead is dead. just give the battery to a recycling place or the new sealed one to it's manufactures.they give you a discount on a new battery or can get money.use the money to buy lead from a shooting range. they are much safe to handle and low waste produced.lead from battery are an alloy best for making them.watch Cody's lab https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkw5UotuRbA

even little of lead ingestion can make you basically dumb, specially you are a kid or a teen.
don't act like you already got lead poisoning and be safe.
melting lead sulfate from a battery releases sulfur oxides.

RogueRose - 25-9-2019 at 05:59

Quote: Originally posted by Ubya  
i've done this twice, and i'm tweaking the technique to make the process easier and faster.
just heating the PbO2 is not enough, it will turn to PbO, and then it will melt (probably what you saw was the liquid PbO).
i also thought of adding charcoal and heating them together, but onestly i didn't try, i directly tried the approach i'm using now.
what i'm doing is the same thing that was done in the past to make iron.
the first model was a "cupula furnace" out of a steel can, and two manual air pumps to pump air in the furnace from the bottom. i would light a small fire inside the can, and then i eould add charcoal, and lead oxides in layers. the charcoal would be consumed reducing the oxide to metal that would flow to the bottom of the furnace (where i would tap it off from a small hole in the furnace), this first build was not great, the air was insufficient and i had to manually pump it for 4 hours befor i eould just give up.
the second model was 4 or 5 soup cans piled and secured one to another to make a long steel tube closed at the bottom. the air was now supplied by an air mattress pump (those used while camping), this version was a failure as the small diameter of the cans made to much air resistance and the heat was localized too much.
what i'm planning now is to use bigger cans (coffee cans) and finer charcoal, this should work.

talking about yield, the first battery i did i first melted out the lead metal, i got a muffin mold worth of lead, then i processed rhe oxides in the cupola furnace and i got another 2 muffins worth of lead but i only used half or less of the total oxide i had (i got exhausted by pumping air by hand).
this is the method used industrially so it should work, and processing 10kg of lead oxides (from 1 big battery or a few smaller ones) can not be done in beakers or at lab scale.
@teodor to process 2 batteries you are going to need lots of nitric acid, it is going to get expensive.



this is the block that came out of the failed run after cooing. you can see the glassy PbO and the little beads of lead on the embedded pieces of charcoal


Well I was told that PbO + charcoal would work and it didn't but I've seen video's of people decomposing PbO using a bunsen burner, burnt wooden block with a cavity in it to hold the Pbo powder, then they would use a blow pipe (glass) to blow air onto the PbO and it turned to lead! It was so simple!

Supposedly copper II oxide - CuO has a MP of 2420F and it can be reduced by H2, CO or C. I have a suspicion that this can be done with lead as well but I'm really curious if that is true, b/c if that is the case then making water-gas might be the best option to reduce CuO or PbO b/c water-gas is steam passed over hot coal/coke (IDK if it HAS to be coke) or maybe even charcoal - which produces H2 + CO. so for every molecule of water you should be able to reduce 2 molecules of metal oxide!

I just found this page that explains H2 reduction & use of water-gas for complete reduction!
http://lead.stcitaly.com/lead-battery-recycling-process/ultr...


I was recently studying refractory material and came across some kind of oven, kiln or forge that was called a reverbatroy oven I think. It's pretty neat and uses the same principles as sound bouncing off a ceiling to get more heat directed at one spot. Think of two 9"x13" cake pans sitting next to each other and a ceiling that peaks in the middle between the pans (like an "A" frame roof/ceiling). The flames would burn at the top of the pan and the flow of the flame/gases would be drawn over the pan next to it and then up a chimney. The roof/ceiling would be angled as such that the radiant heat would be reflected back down on the non-burning pan, which holds the metal - so it gets the reflected/refracted (IDK which is correct) heat as well as the direct heat of the flames passing over it. I looked into the materials that could be used and they aren't really that expensive. I think the three main ingredients were ZrO2, Al2O3, MgO and maybe some binder like sodium silicate (or something that doesn't melt at such a low temp) - it may have also had calcium silicate in addition or in place of the MgO, I'm not certain. I think the ZrO2 is the most important as it does an excellent job reflecting/refracting heat - look at pottery supply shops for Zircomax/zirconmax or something similar. Sheffields pottery supply (in MA) is a great place to look (I know you are in Italy but they have a good list of products to get an idea of prices & what is available.

There are also A LOT of aluminum/silicon based "gem stone" powders that are incredibly refractive and are priced really well. I'll have to find a list if you are interested in building something to do this, having a non-absorptive refractory will help IMMENSELY with how hot you can get and the amount of fuel used. Even using simple steel can as an insulator funneling a flame instead of heating hanging over an open air flame, decreased heating time by at least 50% and increased temp by about 200F.

I'd really like to work on a water-gas generator and figure out the best way to do this, b/c that seems like it might be the most efficient way.

Also, do you know if HCN would reduce metals? There is something that produces large amounts of CO and some HCN and I have A LOT of it, but I need to know if it would make lead cyanide and how I could neutralize any HCN if it doesn't react. I'm thinking a reaction with a base like bubbling through a solution of Na2CO3.


Lead reduction videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh8Ll4_xahc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmL968tIj9U



Copper reduction - not great video though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxjp4XbsOfU
Copper reduction using H2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MlMewgsgSk


Kinetics of reduction of lead oxide in liquid slag by carbon in iron
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02655074

Attachment: Kinetics of reduction of lead oxide in liquid slag by carbon in iron.pdf (824kB)
This file has been downloaded 352 times



Some interesting info from Quora:
https://www.quora.com/What-happens-when-lead-oxide-is-heated...

The Old Metallurgical Engineer says:

Theoretically, PbO + C = Pb + CO(g) or 2PbO + C = 2Pb + CO2(g)

BUT (big but):

Solid-solid reactions are very, very slow (think glacial speed). So, the reduction of PbO with carbon is almost surely:

FIRST:
C + 0.5O2(g) = CO(g) T = 400C
Change in Free Energy: ΔG(400C) = -171.1kJ (negative, so the reaction runs)
Change in Enthalpy: ΔH(400C) = -110.4kJ (negative, so the reaction is exothermic)

THEN:
PbO + CO(g) = Pb + CP2(g)
Change in Free Energy: ΔG(400C) = -56.4kJ (negative, so the reaction runs)
Change in Enthalpy: ΔH(400C) = -10.2kJ (negative, so the reaction is exothermic)

And this reduction of an oxide by CO is exactly what happens to iron ore (iron oxide) Fe2O3 in a blast furnace!



I found a new (2011) Patent Process:
Recovery of high purity lead oxide from lead acid battery paste
https://patents.justia.com/patent/8323595

teodor - 25-9-2019 at 06:12

Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose  
Quote: Originally posted by teodor  
I have 2 old lead batteries and plan to recover lead. I thought to use HNO3 to dissolve all metallic leads as well as it's compounds and then separate lead from impurities by H2SO4. But thank you for publishing another route. I will be able to compare.


Have you processed any before? It is messy, just beware.


We melt a lead metal from batteries plates when I was a child, but it was 35 years ago or so. I don't remember whether it was messy, but probably it was another construction of batteries.
It looks like "Aqua-plomb" from a hardware store 54 EUR per 3.4 kg of lead metal is a better option if I have no plans to dedicate few days of vacation to sort/recycle battery chemicals but just want to make several lead salts and make experiments with them. Thank you for the instruction, may be one day, having more experience with lead chemistry I will try to do it from batteries also .

UPD: possible I will still try to disassemble the batteries to see myself what is inside. Well, I can spend 54 EUR for other chemicals ;)


[Edited on 25-9-2019 by teodor]

RogueRose - 25-9-2019 at 06:19

Quote: Originally posted by rockyit98  
lead is dead. just give the battery to a recycling place or the new sealed one to it's manufactures.they give you a discount on a new battery or can get money.use the money to buy lead from a shooting range. they are much safe to handle and low waste produced.lead from battery are an alloy best for making them.watch Cody's lab https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkw5UotuRbA

even little of lead ingestion can make you basically dumb, specially you are a kid or a teen.
don't act like you already got lead poisoning and be safe.
melting lead sulfate from a battery releases sulfur oxides.


Thanks.

Praxichys - 25-9-2019 at 09:11

You probably already know this but lead ingots on ebay are like 50-60 cents per pound, shipping included.

TheMrbunGee - 25-9-2019 at 11:09

Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  
You probably already know this but lead ingots on ebay are like 50-60 cents per pound, shipping included.


That works out if You are in US, I had a terrible experience getting lead metal in EU, 10$/100 g on ebay, My hand did not raise high enough to pay that price, so I ended up extracting lead from gel Pb battery. I don't remember which one was it, but I think you have to have it 100% charged for most recovery. Well I did it in my flat kitchen in a pot and gas burner. quite easy once you get trough plastic of battery.

Steam - 25-9-2019 at 18:43

Perhaps this video from Cody's Lab might help! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkw5UotuRbA

teodor - 25-9-2019 at 23:14

Well, we did it much simpler and with less equipment than in the video. We put lead into a tincan (actually ironcan) and put the tincan into a usual bonfire with help of some instrument like wrench, on the charcoal. For molding we just used a hole in the ground. It gave not shining surface but pretty smooth. The rest of the broken battery we just kept in a cellar, under a workbench. Also we had 8mm movie camera but never made a video of this process.

The original topic deals with PbO2, not with plain lead which is processed at least from 7000 BCE without troubles
.

[Edited on 26-9-2019 by teodor]

RogueRose - 25-9-2019 at 23:39

Well, I'd appreciate if people stuck to the title, if you want to post where to find lead bullets, or buy it, there is a whole forum to post those in, please feel free. But for the people who actually want to understand how it is done, then please feel free to discuss the process here. I'm not sure everyone has access to a "limestone quarry filled with lead bullets" or a range that will sell lead (it's "hazardous" remember..). So there are people who want to know how to do it from batteries, and considering 2-3 batteries equals what took cody all day panning for in a shooting range, people might want to go that avenue. So, please no more derailing the topic. If you want to add to the original premise of the post, please go ahead. Thanks

Ubya - 26-9-2019 at 03:39

in the near future i'm going to try again (i still have like 8kg of oxides and a new battery i found a few weeks ago to process) and i'll write here if what i'm doing is working

RogueRose - 26-9-2019 at 05:31

Quote: Originally posted by Ubya  
in the near future i'm going to try again (i still have like 8kg of oxides and a new battery i found a few weeks ago to process) and i'll write here if what i'm doing is working


Looking through the different methods to produce CO or H2, it seems that woodgas is probably the easiest way to make a reducing gas as there are lots of web pages where people have made them from producing a L per minute to 50-100L/min to run small power plants.

I'm not sure what the temp needs to be for the reduction to work, I suspect the hotter the better and I was looking into using some cast iron pipe or maybe some ferritic (non-austenitic stainless steel - 304 & 316 aren't magnetic) stainless - and heating the pipe from the outside with a torch or maybe even induction b/c temp control might be easier.

rockyit98 - 26-9-2019 at 05:43

Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose  
Well, I'd appreciate if people stuck to the title, if you want to post where to find lead bullets, or buy it, there is a whole forum to post those in, please feel free. But for the people who actually want to understand how it is done, then please feel free to discuss the process here. I'm not sure everyone has access to a "limestone quarry filled with lead bullets" or a range that will sell lead (it's "hazardous" remember..). So there are people who want to know how to do it from batteries, and considering 2-3 batteries equals what took cody all day panning for in a shooting range, people might want to go that avenue. So, please no more derailing the topic. If you want to add to the original premise of the post, please go ahead. Thanks


when a Person about to do something hard and possibly dangerous to achieve the same goal when there is safe and much better ways around other people should show them the right one.
since you asked,

there is lots of link and YT videos in this page http://www.sciencemadness.org/smwiki/index.php/Lead


[Edited on 26-9-2019 by rockyit98]

Ubya - 26-9-2019 at 06:39
Quote:

when a Person about to do something hard and possibly dangerous to achieve the same goal when there is safe and much better ways around other people should show them the right one.

You just posted a post about jet fuel from plastic, why not starting from petrol? It's easier.
Sometimes a simpler solution is not a better solution, not everyone has the same opportunities. Plus, lot's of people "recycle" car batteries for the lead, but the yield is always low because the battery was discharged/broken, I don't like 99% of YouTube videos about recovering lead from batteries because they just get the metallic lead, and discard the oxide (probably not in a safe way) where is most of the metal.

[Edited on 26-9-2019 by Ubya]

RogueRose - 26-9-2019 at 06:45

Quote: Originally posted by rockyit98  
Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose  
Well, I'd appreciate if people stuck to the title, if you want to post where to find lead bullets, or buy it, there is a whole forum to post those in, please feel free. But for the people who actually want to understand how it is done, then please feel free to discuss the process here. I'm not sure everyone has access to a "limestone quarry filled with lead bullets" or a range that will sell lead (it's "hazardous" remember..). So there are people who want to know how to do it from batteries, and considering 2-3 batteries equals what took cody all day panning for in a shooting range, people might want to go that avenue. So, please no more derailing the topic. If you want to add to the original premise of the post, please go ahead. Thanks


when a Person about to do something hard and possibly dangerous to achieve the same goal when there is safe and much better ways around other people should show them the right one.
since you asked,

there is lots of link and YT videos in this page http://www.sciencemadness.org/smwiki/index.php/Lead


[Edited on 26-9-2019 by rockyit98]


While I appreciate the saftey aspect, that wasn't the goal. Do you do the same for every thread in this forum? That's a pretty big job. I'm pretty sure the thread title and following content was pretty specific as to the goal. If I had wanted to find a place online to buy or some other product that contains lead, I'd probably have asked those questions instead.

As far as other YT video's and other threads, they don't cover full conversion very well and it seems there can be a VERY wide variance between batteries in recovery and I suspect that has to do with the age/health of the battery and many of them that people try to recover are either heavily sulfated or fully discharged leaving less pure lead to easily recover.
It's not an easy task but with the availability of batteries across the world, many people find that this is the best source and I think it's worthwhile coming up with a way to recover the lead safely and reliably rather than have people making a mess and having to guess at temps, times, etc in the process.

Looking at the recycling process it's clear that they deal with batteries "as-is" so they aren't charging them or desulfating them, just grinding and separating plastic. From there the process varies based on the company where some use a chemical process and others use heat or heat/gas.

I know you haven't been here long but there are lots of threads where people do stuff because it's a challenge or because it's needed for some people.

Ubya - 26-9-2019 at 06:51

Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose  
Quote: Originally posted by Ubya  
in the near future i'm going to try again (i still have like 8kg of oxides and a new battery i found a few weeks ago to process) and i'll write here if what i'm doing is working


Looking through the different methods to produce CO or H2, it seems that woodgas is probably the easiest way to make a reducing gas as there are lots of web pages where people have made them from producing a L per minute to 50-100L/min to run small power plants.

I'm not sure what the temp needs to be for the reduction to work, I suspect the hotter the better and I was looking into using some cast iron pipe or maybe some ferritic (non-austenitic stainless steel - 304 & 316 aren't magnetic) stainless - and heating the pipe from the outside with a torch or maybe even induction b/c temp control might be easier.

Hydrogen reduces lead oxide at temperatures below 200°C, while CO needs around 1000-1200°C. Maybe instead of producing woodgas you can make watergas. Water gas is a mixture of CO and H2, produced by the reaction of steam with hot coal(or charcoal), so maybe a could modify my design by just adding a small tube that brings water vapour to the hot combustion zone, CO and H2 are produced, and reduce the lead oxide while traveling up through the furnace. The production of water gas is endothermic, but the fact that hydrogen needs lower temperatures to react with the oxide would make this worthwhile.

RogueRose - 26-9-2019 at 06:53

Quote: Originally posted by Ubya  

Quote:

when a Person about to do something hard and possibly dangerous to achieve the same goal when there is safe and much better ways around other people should show them the right one.

You just posted a post about jet fuel from plastic, why not starting from petrol? It's easier.
Sometimes a simpler solution is not a better solution, not everyone has the same opportunities. Plus, lot's of people "recycle" car batteries for the lead, but the yield is always low because the battery was discharged/broken, I don't like 99% of YouTube videos about recovering lead from batteries because they just get the metallic lead, and discard the oxide (probably not in a safe way) where is most of the metal.

[Edited on 26-9-2019 by Ubya]


Exactly. I've yet to see a comprehensive video and most all of them are pretty poor, like king of random, it has tons of views but is terrible in how it shows what to expect or the process.

As far as your next process, are you going to try charging the battery first? Check the V before charging and then after and let it sit for a day or two and see if/how much the V drops. If you can put a load across it, see if the V drops and by how much. It will give you an idea of the health of the battery. If you don't know how to do this let me know and I'll explain more in depth. Also, if you can check the water level before charging, that would be a good idea, add some DH2O if it needs it. I've seen batteries that had basically zero voltage come back to life after adding water. IDK if they went dry over-charging or what.

Also, you should check to see how much the plates are sulfated. That would be the white substance on the negative plates and sometimes the positive (PbO2) plates. The sulfate decomposes a little below 2000F, below the PbO melting point - so that is good I guess. Also it gives off SO3 as it decomposes.

Ubya - 26-9-2019 at 08:05

About the battery, I tried to recover it when someone posted on the forum about reviving sulfated batteries, long story short, everything I tried didn't work, so I just opened the top (it was a sealed battery) and saw the electrodes, they were deformed, crumbled, touching each other, extreme physical damage, nothing could resuscitate that battery, reason why now I'm harvesting its lead.

[Edited on 26-9-2019 by Ubya]

rockyit98 - 26-9-2019 at 09:12

ok if that what you want
PbSO4 + Na2CO3---->PbCO3 +Na2SO4 The conversion of lead sulphate to lead carbonate in sodium carbonate media https://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/0304-386X(92)90044-Z

PbCO3----(300 to 400C)------>PbO +CO2

2PbO + C →2Pb + CO2 (700C)

[Edited on 26-9-2019 by rockyit98]

speculation;

Sulaiman - 26-9-2019 at 09:52

PbO needs reduction to get Pb

the outer part of an air-hydrocarbon flame is oxidising,
the inner part of the flame is reducing,

so try using the inner part of the flame when aiming for Pb,
preferably use a yellow and/or smoky flame
in conjunction with your reducing agent (H2, C, CO etc.)
the flame should have excess hydrocarbon / incomplete combustion products

I'd expect the outer part of the flame to oxidise lead - which would be counter-productive.

Ubya - 26-9-2019 at 11:33

Quote: Originally posted by rockyit98  
ok if that what you want
PbSO4 + Na2CO3---->PbCO3 +Na2SO4 The conversion of lead sulphate to lead carbonate in sodium carbonate media https://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/0304-386X(92)90044-Z

PbCO3----(300 to 400C)------>PbO +CO2

2PbO + C →2Pb + CO2 (700C)

[Edited on 26-9-2019 by rockyit98]


solubility of lead sulfate in water 0.0032 g/100 mL (15 °C)
even if you don't dissolve the sulfate and let the equilibrium go (solubility of the carbonate 0.00011 g/100 mL (20 °C)) you eould need to wait a looooong time, and it's useless as you can just heat the sulfate to the decomposition temperature to get lead oxide, temperature already needed to reduce the oxide with charcoal

SWIM - 26-9-2019 at 20:28

I get the feeling I'm missing something obvious with this proposal, but what if you throw the PbO in a bucket with some dilute nitric acid and run some current through it?

Won't you get pretty pure lead collecting on one electrode and oxygen bubbling off the other?

The Nitric would be re-generated by the current so it could dissolve more lead oxide and so proceed ad infinitum.(Or at least until the bucket gets too much sludge and whatnot in it.)

Maybe mighty slow, but a hands-off process where you can just let it run 24/7.

RogueRose - 27-9-2019 at 03:04

Quote: Originally posted by SWIM  
I get the feeling I'm missing something obvious with this proposal, but what if you throw the PbO in a bucket with some dilute nitric acid and run some current through it?

Won't you get pretty pure lead collecting on one electrode and oxygen bubbling off the other?

The Nitric would be re-generated by the current so it could dissolve more lead oxide and so proceed ad infinitum.(Or at least until the bucket gets too much sludge and whatnot in it.)

Maybe mighty slow, but a hands-off process where you can just let it run 24/7.


Hmmm, that's an interesting proposal. i have to wonder what the lead is going to look like that collects on the annode. Is it going to be a nice crystal/solid metal or is it going to be a fluffy powder that sometimes happens with a CuSO4 solution with electrolysis between 2 copper electrodes. I've had the copper turn to a brown "dirt"/powder that has massive surface area - which is very easily oxidized b/c of surface area. If the lead is the same, heating it may just turn it into PbO again.

Now I can't remember if the brown copper formed on the anode or cathode as I think I was trying to make CuSO4 from the reaction but I was shocked at the slimy dark brown mess that evolved on one of the electrodes.

I'm thinking controlling the amperage and voltage will be necessary to get a proper result of lead, but this might be worth looking into.

rockyit98 - 27-9-2019 at 04:32

Quote: Originally posted by Ubya  
Quote: Originally posted by rockyit98  
ok if that what you want
PbSO4 + Na2CO3---->PbCO3 +Na2SO4 The conversion of lead sulphate to lead carbonate in sodium carbonate media https://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/0304-386X(92)90044-Z

PbCO3----(300 to 400C)------>PbO +CO2

2PbO + C →2Pb + CO2 (700C)

[Edited on 26-9-2019 by rockyit98]


solubility of lead sulfate in water 0.0032 g/100 mL (15 °C)
even if you don't dissolve the sulfate and let the equilibrium go (solubility of the carbonate 0.00011 g/100 mL (20 °C)) you eould need to wait a looooong time, and it's useless as you can just heat the sulfate to the decomposition temperature to get lead oxide, temperature already needed to reduce the oxide with charcoal


Lead(II) sulfate decomposes when heated above 1000 °C:
you can't reduce it to metal directly
PbSO4 +2C ------(700C)----->PbS +2CO2
maybe using CaO helps
2PbSO4 +5C +2CaO ------(700C)-----> 2CaS + 2Pb +5CO2

Hexabromobenzene - 26-8-2022 at 08:35

You can watch this video from the Russian YouTube. Here all lead is recovered from the battery. Before reduction of the paste treated with sodium bicarbonate and mixed with charcoal. Then it is heated in a steel retort in natural draft furnace at 1000 degrees. As a fuel, wood or coal anthracite is used. Some amount sodium hydroxide used as flux.

The author of the video uses a gas mask when working. Due to high temperature, lead condenses on the pipe as the author of the video wrote

https://youtu.be/UoXRDmS-QIw


But I think that the electrolytic reduction of the battery mass is much better as in this video. This method gives powder lead that can be melted. As a flux, use polypropylene or polyethylene. They will blow out the air from the smelting container and the oxidized lead reducted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIACQrV71ck

[Edited on 26-8-2022 by Hexabromobenzene]

[Edited on 26-8-2022 by Hexabromobenzene]