Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Armstrongs mix magic trick

I want to know what these chemical compounds are for a magic trick but the price he's selling it for is way to high and was wondering if any one from this forum could help me I would be really thankful

btw someone told me its RP and PP i dont know if that means (red powder) and (photo flash powder)?

Sure it do be potassium chlorate (white powder) red phosphorus
(brick red) commonly called Armstong's Mixture after Sir William
Armstrong. I have written 3-articles bout it for American Fireworks
News a few years back. And he is correct
you do not want to mix the two together. If'n I can find it
on the morrow I have
some info on this trick I'll scan it if I wake up tomorrow.

[Edited on 6-1-2011 by The WiZard is In]

The WiZard is In - 6-1-2011 at 07:18

btw someone told me its RP and PP i dont know if that means (red powder) and (photo flash powder)?

Be finding not what I want - I will take my snow shovel out
latter and see if I can find my issues of the Special F/X News
Journal for which I was an occasional contributor.

I have found —

How to Make Flash, Bangs and Puffs of Smoke by Micky Hades
Edited by Mark Steele
Hades Publications 1988

THE DEVILS WHISPER

The Devil's Whisper is a flash and explosion at the end of the
finger tips that leave the magician with no gimmicks to get
rid of. It was used in magic shows about 1907 and became
extremely well know to magicians of that era but is now
almost unknown to today's performers.

The effect employs a highly explosive chemical compound which
was exploded on the bare skin of the finger tips according to
the original presentation. Later improved versions suggested
that the chemical be wrapped in small paper.

This chapter contains the original method as well as a number
of variations. All of which are extremely dangerous.
—Which is why I am not willing to scan the rest of this. /djh/.

The WiZard is In - 6-1-2011 at 08:37

btw someone told me its RP and PP i dont know if that means (red powder) and (photo flash powder)?

Sure it do be potassium chlorate (white powder) red phosphorus
(brick red) commonly called Armstong's Mixture after Sir William
Armstrong. I have written 3-articles bout it for American Fireworks
News a few years back. And he is correct
you do not want to mix the two together. If'n I can find it
on the morrow I have some info on this trick I'll scan it if I wake up tomorrow.

Still cannot find what I am looking for, however, by looking for
something else I have found my copies of the Special F/X
News Journal. The attached from # 17, May/June 1990.

There is a variation on this in issue 18 using toy caps which I
do not consider safe, therefore, I will not scan it.

The Special F/X New Journal ran from issue 1 September/October
1987 to issue 18, July/August 1990.

You can buy a collection of all the issues from —

http://www.fireworksnews.com/product/1003/2

[Edited on 6-1-2011 by The WiZard is In]

ScienceSquirrel - 6-1-2011 at 09:10

Armstrong's mixture is reasonably safe in very small amounts.
I would guess that he is making about 10 - 50mg by crushing the material together on his finger tips.
Probably about as hazardous as lighting a match
Red phosphorous is available in small amounts in the UK without too much difficulty, as is potassium chlorate.

Found it

The WiZard is In - 6-1-2011 at 09:59

the usual way ... by looking for something else!

Attachment: phpwccykb (145kB)
This file has been downloaded 1351 times Attachment: phpJZt5j8 (251kB)
This file has been downloaded 1341 times

[Edited on 6-1-2011 by The WiZard is In]

crank01 - 6-1-2011 at 12:42

Thankyou everyone the helping me solve what these compounds finally are. btw TheWizardIsIn I thought I was good with google but looks as tho I have a challenger lol, thx for finding me all of that. Thx Science Madness forum

vulture - 6-1-2011 at 12:55

Next time, try to write "anyone" instead of "any 1". This isn't the 1337 xbox hacker club. Same goes for the rest of your writing.

The WiZard is In - 6-1-2011 at 14:54

Armstrong's mixture is reasonably safe in very small amounts.
I would guess that he is making about 10 - 50mg by crushing the material together on his finger tips.
Probably about as hazardous as lighting a match
Red phosphorous is available in small amounts in the UK without too much difficulty, as is potassium chlorate.

50mg's is pushing it. The legal in da US of A firecracker contains
50mg of K perchlorate/aluminium. It has been along time since
I had one go off in my hand did do any harm, hurt a bit... 50mg of
the much higher brisance [PLEASE pronounce the word
correctly, it is a French word and not pronounced the way an
English speaker would. Think; Fresnel - anxiety - solder -
isochronous - Oaxaca - &c.] Armstrong's mixture....!

Just touching you fingertips to the separate components will
keep the amount - pain to a minimum. If you start mixing them....
the possibility of an accident increases exponentially.

Donald Sisco, better known as Curt Saxon the author of
The Poor Mans James Bond had this to say in his book:

"The photograph shows a spatula which had been used to stir
a mixture of about 1/2 half ounce of potassium chlorate and a bit
of red phosphorus. The mixer was ignorant of the fact that these
chemicals together, stirred dry, will detonate spontaneously.

"The resulting blast kneaded the spatula out of shape. It atomized
the first 3/4 inch of the bone handle and split the rest. It shattered
the plastic mixing bottle.

"The fingers holding the bottle had the flesh blown off the
bones and the bare bones had to be amputated. The palm of the
hand was turned to hamburger and its inner bones were smashed.

"The hand holding the spatula was undamaged except for
particles of plastic bottle which pierced the skin."

djh
----
Thinking 'bout firecrackers, many-many
moons ago my friend and I discoverd
that the hole in a 78 record was just the
right size to insert a firecracker. One of us
would lite the fuse and the other launch it.

One day the local PD showed up .. someone
reported we were firing a .22. He collected the
firecracker that were obvious.

Have any more?

Well not counting the pile in the house and
a dozen or so packs in our back pockets.... No.

One day my friend and I standing the bank of
Lake Carmel throwing in Ash Cans (AKA Silver Salutes)
tied to rocks to explode underwater into the lake ....
The game warden shows up and collects our ordnance.

Over the years things have gotten more interesting...
the FBI tells me the Secret Service had made inquiries.

25-words or less .....Why Me Lord?

djh
-----
The] growing good of the world is partly dependent on
unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and
me as they might be is half owing to the number who
lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited graves.

"George Elliot" Middlemarch

Lord only knows I have tired too.

[Edited on 6-1-2011 by The WiZard is In]

ScienceSquirrel - 6-1-2011 at 15:25

Je parle le français. J'ai une petite amie française.*

* I speak French. I have a French girlfriend.

You are mixing up 10 - 50mg with half an ounce which is 14g or 14,000 mg.
50mg is around the weight of a match head, it is not exactly a bomb!

Sedit - 6-1-2011 at 15:29

All I could think when reading the OP was that he was trying to make his fingers dissapear.

.

Presto.... Chango...Poof!!!! Look Ma No Hands!

The WiZard is In - 6-1-2011 at 17:07

Je parle le français. J'ai une petite amie française.*

* I speak French. I have a French girlfriend.

You are mixing up 10 - 50mg with half an ounce which is 14g or 14,000 mg.

50mg is around the weight of a match head, it is not exactly a bomb!

Granted. However, people do be .. well people, and they ever tend
to go for bigger... heck nothing has happened .... so far.

50mg exploded in contact with you skin is going to leave a heck
of a hole.

Then there dobe the practical... weighing out enough Red p
and K chlorate to make 50mg.... ! It is lot easier to weigh out
enough to take .... 2-3-4-5 fingers off.

ELLERN
"One combination of two solids exists in which a flaming or even explosive reaction
may take place on merely pushing the powders toward each other or on exertion of very
light pressure. This reaction occurs when the powdered components are completely dry
and the fuel is not superficially oxidized. The two materials are red phosphorus and
potassium chlorate and a demonstration of their reactivity should be performed only with
a few milligrams of each component. When the phosphorus has been kept for some
time in an ordinary reagent bottle, the spontaneity of the reaction may not be so
obvious, but the final effect may be just as disastrous, as has been shown many times
when high school students have appropriated and mixed to tether the two chemicals.
[emphasis added]

"This reaction is undoubtedly the most fascinating, and perhaps theoretically the most
interesting, solid reaction. It has been ingeniously tamed in the modern safety match.

"Red phosphorus and chlorate can be mixed in comparative safety in the presence of a
liquid vehicle, provided both reactants are thoroughly moistened by the vehicle before
they come into contact. Using an aqueous binder solution, small dabs of such a mixture
form the explosive ingredients of toy caps.

"[The] phosphorus/chlorate/binder combination are at the borderline between
spontaneous reaction and manageable, easily initiated, but stable systems of reactive
fuels and oxidizers."

SHIMIZU
rates the sensitivity of "fundamental two component firework compositions" on a scale
from 1, to 5 the most sensitive. The combination of potassium chlorate and red
phosphorus rated 5; realgar and sulphur were rated 4; milk sugar 3; while aluminium
and charcoal were both rated 1.

DAVIS
"Toy caps are commonly made from red phosphorus and potassium chlorate, a
combination of the many with which the pyrotechnist has to deal. THEIR
PREPARATION OUGHT UNDER NO CONDITIONS TO BE ATTEMPTED BY AN
AMATEUR.

"Mixtures of potassium chlorate and red phosphorus explode from shock and from fire.
They do burn in an orderly fashion as do black powder and most other pyrotechnic compositions.

djh
----
The people of those foreign countries are very,
very ignorant. They looked curiously at the costumes
we had brought from the wilds of America. They
observed that we talked loudly at table sometimes.
They noticed that we looked out for expenses and
got what we conveniently could out of a Franc, and
wondered where in the mischief we came from. In
Paris they simply opened their eyes and stared
when we spoke to them in French! We never did
succeed in making them understand their own
language.

Mark Twain
20 November 1867

[Edited on 7-1-2011 by The WiZard is In]

ScienceSquirrel - 6-1-2011 at 18:05

"50mg exploded in contact with you skin is going to leave a heck
of a hole."

No. 50mg is about the weight of a match head and it is not contained so it might give you a trivial burn at the most.

Then there dobe the practical... weighing out enough Red p
and K chlorate to make 50mg.... ! It is lot easier to weigh out
enough to take .... 2-3-4-5 fingers off.

You do not have to weigh the stuff out. One micro spatula tip load of red phosphorous, two micro spatula tip loads of potassium chlorate.
Mix with care.
Result; a few tens of mgs of Armstrong's mixture!

The WiZard is In - 6-1-2011 at 18:14

"50mg exploded in contact with you skin is going to leave a heck
of a hole."

No. 50mg is about the weight of a match head and it is not contained so it might give you a trivial burn at the most.

Armstrong's mixture does not burn it goes boom. Think toy caps.

Extracted from :—
Donald J Haarmann is The WiZ
American Fireworks News
#54 March 1986

Armstrong's mixture redux.

"Lasciate ogni speranza, voi chtentrate!"

Two letters have been received detailing their writers' experience with this mixture. I
have taken the liberty of editing them to protect the identities of the authors.

"In the mid 1950's, the local 5&10 cent stores were selling for 10¢ each, cap guns of tin
plated steel, somewhat thinner than the tinplate in good cans, embossed to look
somewhat like revolvers. All parts except the hinge or pivot pins and two springs were of
tin plate. No paint was applied.

"Caps were 1¢ a roll and had 50 shots per roll. They were narrower then common roll
caps. The tissue cover readily pulled off, once carefully started, revealing reddish lumps
(Armstrong's mixture?) about 20% the mass of common roll caps of the day. These
lumps could be scraped off using a razor blade or an Xacto knife and were considerably
more friction sensitive than the American black cap mixture.

"While watching late nite TV movies one summer, I amassed enough of this red mixture
to fill a Jetex fuse tin (about 3/4 or possibly 1 tablespoon) [of mixture]. It was then
ignited inside the tin via Jetex fuse through a hole in the lid. (Note minimal containment
of charge.)

"As an adult pyro, now with some considerable experience... it [was] absolutely THE
MOST POTENT MIX I've ever played with."

ScienceSquirrel - 6-1-2011 at 18:30

"50mg exploded in contact with you skin is going to leave a heck
of a hole."

No. 50mg is about the weight of a match head and it is not contained so it might give you a trivial burn at the most.

Armstrong's mixture;

50mg, about the weight of a match head or a few toy caps.
Pretty harmless.

A tablespoon's worth, maybe 5 grams eg 5000 mg! Bloody dangerous.

Scaling a reaction up is not just about making it bigger. It can result in a completely different effect and most experienced chemists realise that!

ScienceSquirrel - 6-1-2011 at 18:46

Toy caps can be made to ignite instead of pop.
Just scratch them with a pin or make a basic friction igniter from a couple of caps, matches, an emery nail board and some tape.

The WiZard is In - 6-1-2011 at 20:13

Toy caps can be made to ignite instead of pop.
Just scratch them with a pin or make a basic friction igniter from a couple of caps, matches, an emery nail board and some tape.

Granted. However, look at the snap produced by a few
mg on la U-Tube video. And that with no confinement.

a_bab - 7-1-2011 at 03:13

ScienceSquirrel;

Try to ignite 50 mg of say lead azide on a piece of hard wood. It would blast a small crater. It would pierce a hole onto a coke can and it would leave a dent on a 1 mm copper sheet.

Have you ever had some primary exploding in your hand? Well I've had it. Don't ask me how, but I can assure you it hurts like dickens, and it was miligrams. The paper became schrapnel and it embeded in the skin like in the butter. Don't get me wrong, I'm still typing with all my fingers in place but I guess it's "good" to have such a visceral experience; this will certainly make one respect the explosives more. 50 miligrams of a primary going of on bare skin sounds terribly painfull to be, and this mixture can be treated more like a primary. It would actually work well if it wasn't that sensitive to be if any use.

I suggest you measuring 50 mg of the hottest flash; make it into a small cracker and blast it in your hand. Depending on the confinement/composition it may not pierce the skin but it will leave a bruise such as hit by a small hammer, with the included pain. Do the same with some of the the discussed compo and you'll get a small hole in the skin. If I didn't play with it I would not be entitled to speak but I did. This compo is much more powerful than flash.

Unfortunately I can't find a doc I have (had?) describing the brisance of this mixture, but it's safe to say it rivals some of the primaries and it's also got to be the fastest pyrotechnic mixture known. Think a flame sensitive "chedite" kinf of compo.

ScienceSquirrel - 7-1-2011 at 06:13

Toy caps can be made to ignite instead of pop.
Just scratch them with a pin or make a basic friction igniter from a couple of caps, matches, an emery nail board and some tape.

Granted. However, look at the snap produced by a few
mg on la U-Tube video. And that with no confinement.

I think that 50mg may be too much as an estimate.
Can we agree on something like 5 -20mg for the amount of the mixture likely to adhere to the tips of the fingers?
It is spread in a thin layer over the skin so this also limits its power.
I suspect that we are dealing with so little that it might be possible to recover sufficient red phosphorous from a match box side to perform the trick.
The potassium chlorate could be recovered from the match heads.

Rogeryermaw - 7-1-2011 at 06:55

you definitely do not want to play with armstrong's mixture. even minuscule amounts are very powerful and once you lay the red P over the perchlorate it needs to be mixed. friction can set it off in your hand. it's not too far down the list from nitrogen triiodide in sensitivity. and that shit can be set off by a light breeze.

ScienceSquirrel - 7-1-2011 at 07:22

I have made nitrogen triiodide and it is OK in small amounts.
Make it, filter off and leave the damp paper to dry and then tap it very gently with a stick.
The bang and purple cloud impressed the nephew no end.

MagicNut - 19-3-2011 at 08:28

Damn, several months of searching and I've finally found what I've wanted.

OK, so I'm kinda into magic, especially fire tricks, and with that in mind, I'd like to repeat the thing that guy showed on youtube.

So, did anyone succeeded in making the components that that guy was talking about in youtube video?
Can someone help me to do the same? Cause you know, he's asking to much for them... And yes, I know it's dangerous, but look at the video, can those amounts that he's using really hurt?

Or maybe someone can suggest some other options with the same effect?

Anyways, I'm looking forward hearing any of your help on the matter. So PM me, or post here, etc.

Thanks

woelen - 19-3-2011 at 13:53

I must have missed this thread, I now see it for the first time.

The effect looks amazing, but I have the feeling that it must be quite painful.

I made the red P / KClO3 mix many times and made a small demo video of this:

http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/raw_material...

I can assure you that 50 mg of a hot burning mix directly in contact with your fingers is painful, very painful. I have experience with that. I tried the same experiment with red P and K3CrO8 instead of KClO3. The stuff ignited while mixing it and I had the container in my hand. Even with the container (which was an aluminium container for a waxine light) between the ignited mix and my skin I had a very painful evening. It hurt like hell!

So, I assume that the quantities, used in the video are much lower, maybe 1 or 2 mg. The quantities in my video also are much lower than 50 mg and even these small quantities give an amazingly violent reaction.

BE VERY CAREFUL WITH ARMSTRONGS MIX!!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------

The same experiment fails with KClO4 instead of KClO3. I never managed to ignite a mix of red P and KClO4 by simply tapping it. It can be ignited easily by means of flame, but mechanical shock does not easily ignite a mix with perchlorate. So, the mix really must contain chlorate, otherwise it will not work.

[Edited on 19-3-11 by woelen]

Bot0nist - 19-3-2011 at 14:51

I suspect that we are dealing with so little that it might be possible to recover sufficient red phosphorous from a match box side to perform the trick.
The potassium chlorate could be recovered from the match heads.

I believe it is potassium perchlorate in the match heads. At least my box has a perchlorate warning on them for the state of California. I think using perchlorate my make it less sensitive than chlorate, though with the RP in it I doubt it would matter much.

[Edited on 19-3-2011 by Bot0nist]

MagicNut - 19-3-2011 at 23:41

So after a bit more searching, I've found out, that both of the components can be made from matches (P - from box and KClO3 - from matches), right?

Can anyone show the best way to do that. I know there's plenty of instructions about that, including u-tube, but I'd prefer to hear this from guys who know what are they doing (in other words - professionals), instead of some 15 y.o. kid...

Bot0nist - 20-3-2011 at 07:35

Getting Red Phos from match boxes has been covered extensively here, and elsewhere on the net. Please try the search engine.

Chlorate or Perchlorate (whatever is used as the oxidizer in your matches) can be separated with a little thought. Find out whats in the match heads, use wikipedia/google to find out the properties (solubility, ect.) of each component, then extract, and recrystallize.

[Edited on 20-3-2011 by Bot0nist]

The WiZard is In - 25-3-2011 at 12:33