Sciencemadness Discussion Board - What opioids/opiates can be made 100% syntheticaly without poppies

What opioids/opiates can be made 100% syntheticaly without poppies

RogueRose - 24-6-2019 at 00:46

I'm doing research into the WHO list of essential medications and on this list are various opioids/opiates. I remember back in WWII there was a drastic shortage in the supply of poppy based material (either opium or poppy straw) to make these drugs which, IIRC, is how methadone was developed, originally named Dolophine, but it has it's own problems as a general use pain killer due to the very long half life, allergic reactions and other medical side effects (especially for some people). I also know that fentynal is fully synthetic but that again has a lot of drawbacks from proper dosing due to its extreme potency to a high occurrence of side effects, especially with opioid-naive patients sometimes leading to death.

As for the difficulty of production, it is to be assumed that this would be done in a fully licensed and stocked pharmaceutical company, possibly in a time of global supply chain upset. The lab/company has the ability to perform very advanced synthesis's with minimal if any restriction on time and there's adequate funding for feed stock, reagents and equipment.

From what I've researched it seems that all other opioid's are derived from natural origins even semi-synthetic's like hydrocodone - they start with either poppy straw or opium. IDK if this is correct or not, or if it has changed since my research or since the publishing of the research and WIKI data.

From what I've researched it seems that all other opioid's are derived from natural origins even semi-synthetic's like hydrocodone - they start with either poppy straw or opium. IDK if this is correct or not, or if it has changed since my research or since the publishing of the research and WIKI data.

Finally I know that Demerol (Pethidine) is a synthetic which is powerful for very short acting moderate to semi-severe pain relief but it has a very short half life. Bio-availability is listed as 50-60% orally or 80-90% with hepatic impairment, but I've seen a lot of reports of this being much lower being closer to 15-30% orally in a healthy person, which is why it was so often used as an injectible. Half-life on wiki also lists 2.5-4 hours but again, I've read studies where this is much shorter (w/ oral admin). IIRC, this drug also has a higher than normal risk of addiction w/n the opioid class which IMO should make it avoided if at all possible. It is synthesized from benzyl cyanide and piperidine so that shouldn't be too difficult to obtain in a legitimate lab.

So I'm wondering if there are other opioids or opiates which are easily produced synthetically. Also, how difficult would it be to synthesize "normal" opioids like codeine, morphine, oxycodone, oxymorphone, hydromorphone, dihydrocodeine, (might as well include diamorphine as well), diacetyldihydromorphine, and any others which might be possibilties.?

-edit - If anyone knows of any drugs on the WHO essentials list that can't be synthesized - they require harvest from plant or animal material (I'm not talking about yeast or bacteria cultures) I'd appreciate you posting what they are as I have a bit of a job sifting through the near 500 medications. Thanks!

[Edited on 6-24-2019 by RogueRose]

Assured Fish - 24-6-2019 at 01:15

All of them can be synthetically made of coarse, this is organic chemistry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_synthesis_of_morphine_an...

The more analagous morphine derived opiates are somewhat out-dated in that they have a high rate for dependency and so the pharmaceutical companies have developed a lot of much weaker opiates to substitute, a perfect example is Tramadol.

There are also many other non opiate compounds which have been tested and used over the years that still agonize the opiate receptors, like Benzodiazopines and Barbituates as well as a few Quinazolinones.

As far as i know there has also been research into some vanilloid derivatives and there ability to block or antagonize the TRPV1 receptor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRPV1

RogueRose - 24-6-2019 at 02:13

I thought it was possible to do it all 100% synthetically but wasn't sure I thought I had read somewhere that there was some major stumbling block that made most of them impossible - but when I read that it was many years ago, before I'd learned much about chem (Org chem is still my weakest)

Good point in talking about Tramadol as I often forget that drug. I know some people respond well to it while others feel it is completely worthless and some react poorly (side-effects or allergic reactions IIRC). I'll look into this.

I'd like to explore the option of bio-engineering some plant to produce some of the more difficult parts/compounds of the synthesis process, so maybe 2-5 steps could be cut out of the synth by growing a plant that has been altered to produce that end compound - then harvest and extract. I'm wondering if Crisper can do this and how difficult it would be. I remember looking at certain plants wondering if they would be suitable candidates for modification and IIRC tobacco seemed like a plausible option and maybe modify or replace nicotine if that was possible.

Also, I was looking at plants like milkweed that produce a latex that is actually very similar in texture to real rubber (though I think it is water soluble and not as "robust") and wondered if this might be able to be engineered to produce real latex or something similar that is usable. The milkweed plant is also very useful in making cordage (it's stringy material is as strong as hemp or flax rope) and the fluff from the seeds actually has a fair number of uses - making a blend with goose/duck down for jackets/sleeping bags makes gives the product better overall performance and longevity (when kept relatively dry) when used at 20-35% from the reports I've read. So if a "latex" could be harvested from this plant, that would give a very much needed new source for rubber than the mono-culture on which we rely. I wonder if the plant could be altered to create a chemical compound similar to poppy latex, which would make this a HIGHLY sought after product/invention!!!!

[Edited on 6-24-2019 by RogueRose]

Keras - 24-6-2019 at 04:23

I’m not sure, but I think most of the corticoids are derived from extracted cholesterol. Cholesterol total synthesis is possible, but the associated costs prohibits it (more than 15 steps, IIRC).

Cyanocobalamin (vitamin B₁₂) isn't synthesised from scratch, given the complexity of the molecule. It is extracted from fermentation mixture.

Ah, you need plants or animals. Okay. Sorry

Edit: Digoxin?

[Edited on 24-6-2019 by Keras]

DavidJR - 24-6-2019 at 04:50

Casomorphins are relatively simple peptides and would not be especially difficult to prepare.

raffike - 24-6-2019 at 06:10

Fentantyl can be easily made from methyl acrylate and b-phenylethylamine in five steps. Other syntetic opioids tend to be more difficult to prepare and have many isomers which need separation on so on.

Ubya - 24-6-2019 at 06:36

Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose

I'd like to explore the option of bio-engineering some plant to produce some of the more difficult parts/compounds of the synthesis process, so maybe 2-5 steps could be cut out of the synth by growing a plant that has been altered to produce that end compound - then harvest and extract. I'm wondering if Crisper can do this and how difficult it would be.

Really difficult, big lab with budget of millions of dollars difficult

[Edited on 24-6-2019 by Ubya]

karlos³ - 24-6-2019 at 10:22

Propoxyphene analogues are pretty easy to prepare, especially the more potent ones which don't need chiral resolution.
For example the pyrrolidine acetyl ester, you would do a mannich on propiophenone with pyrrolidine, then a grignard with benzylmagnesium chloride and the through the grignard reduction resulting alcohol needs to be esterified with acetyl chloride or acetic anhydride.
According to the literature, four times as analgetic as dextropropoxyphene and completely synthetic.

unionised - 24-6-2019 at 12:03

It's possible to synthesise the opiates.
It's much easier and cheaper to grow poppies and extract them.
(It's probably more environmentally friendly too).
The same is true of the cardiac glycosides derived from foxglove and the steroid nucleus of most pharmaceutical hormones.

It's a moot point whether things like amphetamine are a "synthetic form of cocaine", but it's fair to say that the plant is still cultivated to supply the drug market.

Morgan - 24-6-2019 at 14:04

Long ago I remember reading about hundreds or maybe thousands of cataloged amino acid combinations strung together, in various order, some of them with just 5 amino acids, all having a narcotic effect. Many weren't active if ingested, being broken down if taken orally. Maybe some could remain active if taken with other compounds?
Anyway it was something along these lines.

"The enkephalins turned out to be pentapeptides, molecules composed of five amino acids linked together. Later, longer chains of amino acids, all incorporating the enkephalin structure, were found to stimulate opiate receptors and were termed endorphins."
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/you-asked/what-are-endorph...

mayko - 24-6-2019 at 14:17

Yeast has been engineered to produce opiates; check this thread for links & discussion:
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=62...

mackolol - 27-6-2019 at 23:14

Tramadol is made 100% synthetically and u47700 analogs

Pseudoscience - 28-6-2019 at 08:42

Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose

I thought it was possible to do it all 100% synthetically but wasn't sure I thought I had read somewhere that there was some major stumbling block that made most of them impossible - but when I read that it was many years ago, before I'd learned much about chem (Org chem is still my weakest)

Good point in talking about Tramadol as I often forget that drug. I know some people respond well to it while others feel it is completely worthless and some react poorly (side-effects or allergic reactions IIRC). I'll look into this.

I'd like to explore the option of bio-engineering some plant to produce some of the more difficult parts/compounds of the synthesis process, so maybe 2-5 steps could be cut out of the synth by growing a plant that has been altered to produce that end compound - then harvest and extract. I'm wondering if Crisper can do this and how difficult it would be. I remember looking at certain plants wondering if they would be suitable candidates for modification and IIRC tobacco seemed like a plausible option and maybe modify or replace nicotine if that was possible.

Also, I was looking at plants like milkweed that produce a latex that is actually very similar in texture to real rubber (though I think it is water soluble and not as "robust") and wondered if this might be able to be engineered to produce real latex or something similar that is usable. The milkweed plant is also very useful in making cordage (it's stringy material is as strong as hemp or flax rope) and the fluff from the seeds actually has a fair number of uses - making a blend with goose/duck down for jackets/sleeping bags makes gives the product better overall performance and longevity (when kept relatively dry) when used at 20-35% from the reports I've read. So if a "latex" could be harvested from this plant, that would give a very much needed new source for rubber than the mono-culture on which we rely. I wonder if the plant could be altered to create a chemical compound similar to poppy latex, which would make this a HIGHLY sought after product/invention!!!!

[Edited on 6-24-2019 by RogueRose]

They are starting to use yeast for synthesis of thebaine.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26272907

zed - 29-6-2019 at 13:01

Lots of potent opioids out there.

Fentanyl, Etonitazine, Etc. Etc. Etc.. Fairly easy to make, and wildly potent. A newer material, Pink, is dirt cheap, and great fer whacking out unsuspecting teenagers. https://www.wweek.com/news/2017/07/05/an-18-year-old-girl-di...

[Edited on 29-6-2019 by zed]

draculic acid69 - 3-7-2019 at 23:38

Tramadol analogues such as tapentadol are fully synthetic and easy to make, pethidine analogues such as the reversed ester ones,levorphanol type stuff which is basically levo dxm.

nimgoldman - 15-7-2019 at 15:58

Mitragynine is an indole-based opioid found in the leaves of Mitragyna speciosa plant, known as kratom. Total synthesis has been published for this compound:

Quote:

Takayama, Hiromitsu, et al. "The first total synthesis of (−)-mitragynine, an analgesic indole alkaloid in Mitragyna speciosa." Tetrahedron letters 36.51 (1995): 9337-9340.

Pavel_ChemGeek - 20-7-2019 at 17:41

Why this question ? why you don't use wikipedia and look for opioids? opioids are molecule who have an effect on opiate receptor but are not derived from poppy alkaloids.
Opiates are derived from poppy alkaloids
There are plenty of synthetic opioids,just take time to search before asking
I think you're a litlle lazy

RogueRose - 21-7-2019 at 07:03

Quote: Originally posted by Pavel_ChemGeek

Why this question ? why you don't use wikipedia and look for opioids? opioids are molecule who have an effect on opiate receptor but are not derived from poppy alkaloids.
Opiates are derived from poppy alkaloids
There are plenty of synthetic opioids,just take time to search before asking
I think you're a litlle lazy

Gee, if only I had known about wiki, that would have cleared up all my questions!
<<breaks into song by Johnny Nash>>
I can see clearly now that Wiki loads, I can see all opioids on the page!
/endsong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FscIgtDJFXg

Well there are MANY that aren't listed on Wiki, not only b/c wiki doesn't want people to know about them, but b/c they are in scientific journals or even too old to be listed in wiki and are only available as some really old references.

So you come here, with 2 posts, and your third is to tell me to "look at wiki". Great. I hope everyone remembers that. If you live your life based upon wiki being the end all be all of information, you might as well hop right back on the short bus and start back at grade 1.

I can guarantee you I've done more research into this than 95% of the people on here, but you know what? There are some amazingly smart and resourceful people here that might just remember reading an article 2-80 months ago about some odd synthetic, and they can contribute to the post. Others, have other aspects to add, that wiki doesn't even begin to mention.

Now go write your high school paper and make sure to cite Wiki as your source, since that is the author, correct?

RogueRose - 21-7-2019 at 07:11

Quote: Originally posted by nimgoldman

Mitragynine is an indole-based opioid found in the leaves of Mitragyna speciosa plant, known as kratom. Total synthesis has been published for this compound:

Quote:

Takayama, Hiromitsu, et al. "The first total synthesis of (−)-mitragynine, an analgesic indole alkaloid in Mitragyna speciosa." Tetrahedron letters 36.51 (1995): 9337-9340.

Thanks for the link to this. I've looked into kratom alot (reading, not trying) and have heard a lot ofmixed stories, kind of like CBD's. Some people said it cured their opiate habit, even people doing a lot of heroin, which if true is amazing, but I have no idea how the body handles withdrawal from Mitragynine and I don't remeber how hard the synth is, it must not be too easy if people are shipping over the powder, otherwise we'd see it in a pure form in stores and on the streets.

I wonder what a dose would be. I see capsules that look to be 3/4-1g and a leaf is supposed to contain 1.2-2.1% Mitragynine. IDK if one capsule is roughly a leaf or what, but at $5-8 per 2 pills, that wounds expensive for powdery leaves!

Anyone know if it grows in the states (plant it maybe?)

karlos³ - 22-7-2019 at 04:27

It grows in the states(I'm in western europe), but only indoors here, but homegrown kratom is more potent than bought product.
I had three plants over the years but they had a hard time surviving the room temperatues in winter and thus currently I possess none.

draculic acid69 - 22-7-2019 at 04:37

Keaton is legal in some states in the u.s. isn't it. Every company that sells online won't ship outside of the u.s. bcoz they are bound by American drug laws.

zed - 22-7-2019 at 14:02

Building the molecule, might not be easy. It could be viewed as a 4-hydroxy- tryptamine. An odd cousin of Psilocybin/DMT.

The plant itself might grow well in parts of California or the South West. If frost avoidance is the important factor. Even the San Francisco Area is a possibility. Avocado trees sometimes do well in areas like Alameda or Bay Farm Island. Never really hot, but very seldom freezing.